(Good) and (Evil), what happens with both?


Homebrew and House Rules


I am considering using race builder rules to make a creature who has all four of the alignment subtypes, however I am baffled what effect certain spells (holy word, dictum, blasphemy, etc.) would do to such a creature, does anybody know?

Dark Archive

A creature with opposing axis alignment subtypes is not possible since, in order for that to be possible the creature would need to be both good AND evil (and/or Chaotic AND Lawful). Since a creature can only have one alignment, they can only have one alignment subtype.


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Quote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).

The other subtypes say the same thing. It is entirely possible to have a creature that detects and is effected by opposing alignment effects - a Lawful Good succubus (which has the Chaotic and Evil subtypes) is affected as a lawful, chaotic, good, and evil creature.


Yes, it's is possible via the rules, but the question I want to know is what happens with alignment dependent spells

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hazrond wrote:
I am considering using race builder rules to make a creature who has all four of the alignment subtypes, however I am baffled what effect certain spells (holy word, dictum, blasphemy, etc.) would do to such a creature, does anybody know?

It would suffer the most possible damage from any of those spells. Any type of Paladin or Anti-Paladin could smite it.

It's not only a bad idea, it's the place where bad ideas go to have bad ideas of their own.


That's ugly and as far as i can tell it cannot exist in the current rules set, so there are no rules to cover it.

Personal feeling aside though, I'd start by looking at what the spell is asking you.

So the level 4 ones asks (in the case of chaos hammer for instance) 'are you lawful or neutral' answer is yes, so it affects you.*

The level 7 chain will not affect you as that asks (using dictum as the example) 'are you non-lawful', answer no, you are lawful, so unaffected.

* in my opinion the bracketed (not chaotic) only refers to the neutral alignment, but it could be argued that it modifies the whole sentence in which case you probably are immune to that too.

Dark Archive

OP is proposing a brand new creature with all the alignment subtypes, not a pariah who is unusual among its race. It is true that a Chaotic Evil Succubus can later become Lawful Good and not change it's subtype, but the rules state nothing about an entire race having opposing alignment subtypes by default. The very lack of such a creature in all of the published books emphasizes this.
It cannot be done within the rules, if you'd like advice on homebrewing those rules to support this new creature of yours OP, I might suggested bringing this up in the Advice or Homebrew forums.


That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

OP is proposing a brand new creature with all the alignment subtypes, not a pariah who is unusual among its race. It is true that a Chaotic Evil Succubus can later become Lawful Good and not change it's subtype, but the rules state nothing about an entire race having opposing alignment subtypes by default. The very lack of such a creature in all of the published books emphasizes this.

It cannot be done within the rules, if you'd like advice on homebrewing those rules to support this new creature of yours OP, I might suggested bringing this up in the Advice or Homebrew forums.

Just because something doesn't already exist does not make it impossible. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that prohibit a creature with both the [Good] and [Evil] subtypes from existing.


Wouldn't a creature that is both lawful and chaotic as well as good and evil have a neutral subtype? Like humans...


That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

OP is proposing a brand new creature with all the alignment subtypes, not a pariah who is unusual among its race. It is true that a Chaotic Evil Succubus can later become Lawful Good and not change it's subtype, but the rules state nothing about an entire race having opposing alignment subtypes by default. The very lack of such a creature in all of the published books emphasizes this.

It cannot be done within the rules, if you'd like advice on homebrewing those rules to support this new creature of yours OP, I might suggested bringing this up in the Advice or Homebrew forums.

actually, the creature is a pariah, specifically its the experiment of a mad wizard created from several low order outsiders (specifically an Agathion, an Daemon, an Inevitable, and a Protean) combined with an half-elf, the final result i had in mind would be a Native Outsider half-elf with the 4 alignment subtypes

Edit: i am not particularly interested in the argument about whether its legal or not by the rules, i was just wishing to know what effect this would have on the manyy alignment dependant spells

Dark Archive

Jeraa wrote:
That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

OP is proposing a brand new creature with all the alignment subtypes, not a pariah who is unusual among its race. It is true that a Chaotic Evil Succubus can later become Lawful Good and not change it's subtype, but the rules state nothing about an entire race having opposing alignment subtypes by default. The very lack of such a creature in all of the published books emphasizes this.

It cannot be done within the rules, if you'd like advice on homebrewing those rules to support this new creature of yours OP, I might suggested bringing this up in the Advice or Homebrew forums.
Just because something doesn't already exist does not make it impossible. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that prohibit a creature with both the [Good] and [Evil] subtypes from existing.

Yes...that's why I said "emphasizes" not 'proves'.

While true, the rules do no explicitly come out and say you cannot do that, they likewise do not say you CAN. The fact that literally every creature in the game with an alignment subtype matches their actual alignment shows pretty clearly that racial alignments HAVE to match their racial alignment subtypes as well, or at the very least that the alignment system was designed with that concept in mind and should continue to be adhered to to avoid balance issue.
Of course, since he is the GM he is welcome to change whatever he'd like, but as this is the Rules Forum and this is no rules precedent, no accurate answer can be given except: "Can't be done within the rules"

Dark Archive

Hazrond wrote:

actually, the creature is a pariah, specifically its the experiment of a mad wizard created from several low order outsiders (specifically an Agathion, an Daemon, an Inevitable, and a Protean) combined with an half-elf, the final result i had in mind would be a Native Outsider half-elf with the 4 alignment subtypes

Edit: i am not particularly interested in the argument about whether its legal or not by the rules, i was just wishing to know what effect this would have on the manyy alignment dependant spells

Ah see that changes everything. My arguement was based on the assumption that you were creating a brand new race for your game, not just an individual.

That being the case I have no idea how to answer you, as there are no rules precedence for doing this I likewise have no idea what it'd do by the rules. You will have to ask the Advice or Homebrew guys since no rules exist for it.

Dark Archive

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That Crazy Alchemist wrote:
Hazrond wrote:

actually, the creature is a pariah, specifically its the experiment of a mad wizard created from several low order outsiders (specifically an Agathion, an Daemon, an Inevitable, and a Protean) combined with an half-elf, the final result i had in mind would be a Native Outsider half-elf with the 4 alignment subtypes

Edit: i am not particularly interested in the argument about whether its legal or not by the rules, i was just wishing to know what effect this would have on the manyy alignment dependant spells

Ah see that changes everything. My arguement was based on the assumption that you were creating a brand new race for your game, not just an individual.

That being the case I have no idea how to answer you, as there are no rules precedence for doing this I likewise have no idea what it'd do by the rules. You will have to ask the Advice or Homebrew guys since no rules exist for it.

Hold on there sports fan, this is pretty easy to answer within the bounds of the rules as written; he doesn't need to jump forums. Based on subtypes, the creature would be treated as Good, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic all at once. Let's look at Blasphemy as an example: it hurts every non-evil creature in a 40-foot spread. Since it would count as all alignments, it would be both evil and non-evil at the same time so it would be affected.

Long story short, this is a Bad Deal(TM) for this unfortunate soul.

Note, this is also the problem faced by a LG Succubus since it would be Lawful and Good as well as have the Chaotic and Evil subtype.


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EDIT: semi-ninja'd! See below:

That Crazy Alchemist wrote:
That being the case I have no idea how to answer you, as there are no rules precedence for doing this I likewise have no idea what it'd do by the rules. You will have to ask the Advice or Homebrew guys since no rules exist for it.

Aaaaaactually, as Jeraa quoted:

Quote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).

... and...

Jeraa wrote:
The other subtypes say the same thing. It is entirely possible to have a creature that detects and is effected by opposing alignment effects - a Lawful Good succubus (which has the Chaotic and Evil subtypes) is affected as a lawful, chaotic, good, and evil creature.

... which means that it's always treated as all alignments. Plenty of precedent there.

So, to the OP's specific questions:

Blasphemy means: nothing happens. You've the evil subtype, which means you're treated as having the evil alignment, which means that you don't fall under "non-evil" creature.

Dictum, Holy Word, and Word of Chaos all have nearly identical wording. Nothing will happen.

Protection from Evil is effective against it, as are all the Protection from... spells.

Magic Circle, however, wouldn't bind your creature, though it prevent your creature from entering if it were summoned somehow.

Basically, look at the wording. If it says "non-X" it ignores you, since you are, by definition, "X". If it says it applies to "X", it applies to you, since you're "X".

The only exception to this is neutral, unless your creature was neutral, in which case the neutral alignment would apply just as much as any of the others.

There is no easy singular answer beyond that - it is up to the individual wording of the spells.


Hazrond wrote:
I am considering using race builder rules to make a creature who has all four of the alignment subtypes, however I am baffled what effect certain spells (holy word, dictum, blasphemy, etc.) would do to such a creature, does anybody know?

Why would you make this race. I assume your plan for there place in the World Will give a clue to how they will react to stuff.


BlackOuroboros wrote:

Hold on there sports fan, this is pretty easy to answer withing the bounds of the rules as written; he doesn't need to jump forums. Based on subtypes, the creature would be treated as Good, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic all at once. Let's look at Blasphemy as an example: it hurts every non-evil creature in a 40-foot spread. Since it would count as all alignments, it would be both evil and non-evil at the same time so it would be affected.

Long story short, this is a Bad Deal(TM) for this unfortunate soul.

Note, this is also the problem faced by a LG Succubus since it would be Lawful and Good as well as have the Chaotic and Evil subtype.

This is what I thought at first as well, but he counts as evil. In reductive reading (as I've applied), it only checks once ("are you evil? y/n") whereas in inclusive reading as BlackOuroboros applied, it checks for all counts ("are you evil? y/n; are you also anything other than evil? y/n").

Whether you apply reductive or inclusive reading is something that is up to a given GM... and it's not something that can be solved on the rules forums, because there is no "only this way" of reading the rules - the Devs have demurred a few times in terms of which way to read it, and English is a tricky language like that.

Short version: BlackOuroboros is correct, and so am I. Two different ways of taking the text. Both correct.

The more common interpretation is BlackOuroboros', and, truth be told, before I actually looked at the spell wording, it was mine as well. Take that as you will.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Hazrond wrote:
That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

OP is proposing a brand new creature with all the alignment subtypes, not a pariah who is unusual among its race. It is true that a Chaotic Evil Succubus can later become Lawful Good and not change it's subtype, but the rules state nothing about an entire race having opposing alignment subtypes by default. The very lack of such a creature in all of the published books emphasizes this.

It cannot be done within the rules, if you'd like advice on homebrewing those rules to support this new creature of yours OP, I might suggested bringing this up in the Advice or Homebrew forums.

actually, the creature is a pariah, specifically its the experiment of a mad wizard created from several low order outsiders (specifically an Agathion, an Daemon, an Inevitable, and a Protean) combined with an half-elf, the final result i had in mind would be a Native Outsider half-elf with the 4 alignment subtypes

Edit: i am not particularly interested in the argument about whether its legal or not by the rules, i was just wishing to know what effect this would have on the manyy alignment dependant spells

Perhaps you can take the next step and let us know WHY you want to make this creature? What story are you trying to tell here? What mechanics are you hoping this pitiful soul will have? What do you plan on doing with them? There may be a better way to reach the effect you are desiring.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tacticslion wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:

Hold on there sports fan, this is pretty easy to answer withing the bounds of the rules as written; he doesn't need to jump forums. Based on subtypes, the creature would be treated as Good, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic all at once. Let's look at Blasphemy as an example: it hurts every non-evil creature in a 40-foot spread. Since it would count as all alignments, it would be both evil and non-evil at the same time so it would be affected.

Long story short, this is a Bad Deal(TM) for this unfortunate soul.

Note, this is also the problem faced by a LG Succubus since it would be Lawful and Good as well as have the Chaotic and Evil subtype.

This is what I thought at first as well, but he counts as evil. In reductive reading (as I've applied), it only checks once ("are you evil? y/n") whereas in inclusive reading as BlackOuroboros applied, it checks for all counts ("are you evil? y/n; are you also anything other than evil? y/n").

Whether you apply reductive or inclusive reading is something that is up to a given GM... and it's not something that can be solved on the rules forums, because there is no "only this way" of reading the rules - the Devs have demurred a few times in terms of which way to read it, and English is a tricky language like that.

Short version: BlackOuroboros is correct, and so am I. Two different ways of taking the text. Both correct.

The more common interpretation is BlackOuroboros', and, truth be told, before I actually looked at the spell wording, it was mine as well. Take that as you will.

Oh edge cases, how we love you. I concur, do what thou wilt just be consistent.


The presumption is that an alignment subtype will override the actualy alignment of a creature that has that subtype. So your [Chaotic] [Evil] subtyped creature responds as if it was of a chaotic evil alignment, even if it personally has a lawful good ethos and morality.

Although it is never specifically referenced, it is clear both from concept and examples that alignment subtypes should follow the same rules as alignments themselves as far a valid combinations. All the rules expect this convention to be followed, and their are no rules for the "illegal" interactions that would happen if it wasn't followed.

So, bottom line is, as far as the rules are concerned, if you want to break this fundamental assumption, you will have to decide for yourself on how that effects the spells that deal with alignments. Possible answers would include always be valid targets for the negative effects, or never be valid targets or some special interaction that you make up yourself.


Dave Justus wrote:
The presumption is that an alignment subtype will override the actualy alignment of a creature that has that subtype. So your [Chaotic] [Evil] subtyped creature responds as if it was of a chaotic evil alignment, even if it personally has a lawful good ethos and morality.

The subtype rules say differently.

Quote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).

So a Lawful Good aligned creature with the chaotic and evil subtypes will take the extra damage from an Unholy weapon (because of its good alignment), and the extra damage from a Holy weapon (because of its evil subtype).


Jeraa wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
The presumption is that an alignment subtype will override the actualy alignment of a creature that has that subtype. So your [Chaotic] [Evil] subtyped creature responds as if it was of a chaotic evil alignment, even if it personally has a lawful good ethos and morality.

The subtype rules say differently.

Quote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).
So a Lawful Good aligned creature with the chaotic and evil subtypes will take the extra damage from an Unholy weapon (because of its good alignment), and the extra damage from a Holy weapon (because of its evil subtype).

Oops, you are correct. I totally spaced the line about also suffers according to actual alignment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeraa wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
The presumption is that an alignment subtype will override the actualy alignment of a creature that has that subtype. So your [Chaotic] [Evil] subtyped creature responds as if it was of a chaotic evil alignment, even if it personally has a lawful good ethos and morality.

The subtype rules say differently.

Quote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).
So a Lawful Good aligned creature with the chaotic and evil subtypes will take the extra damage from an Unholy weapon (because of its good alignment), and the extra damage from a Holy weapon (because of its evil subtype).

That's the hard life of being a succubus Paladin.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
The presumption is that an alignment subtype will override the actualy alignment of a creature that has that subtype. So your [Chaotic] [Evil] subtyped creature responds as if it was of a chaotic evil alignment, even if it personally has a lawful good ethos and morality.

The subtype rules say differently.

Quote:
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).
So a Lawful Good aligned creature with the chaotic and evil subtypes will take the extra damage from an Unholy weapon (because of its good alignment), and the extra damage from a Holy weapon (because of its evil subtype).
That's the hard life of being a succubus Paladin.

The 27 Charisma is a balm that will sooth that wound.

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