Sell me on Pathfinder Online


Pathfinder Online

Scarab Sages

My experiences with online gaming from 2004-2011(ish) left me with the conclusion that I was better off without it - but I would like to believe that Pathfinder Online might be worth it, since I like Pathfinder and don't get to play nearly enough of it, for a dearth of good groups and a now indefinitely-comatose Pathfinder Society in my area. I think I once read that a developer said that they wanted Pathfinder Online to enable players to do almost anything you could do in tabletop Pathfinder (impossible, of course, hence the continued relevance of tabletop gaming in the age of computer games, but I nonetheless understand what they're shooting for there)...but on the other hand, I'd heard that they hired an exceedingly poor choice for lead designer who'd wound up making Pathfinder Online into just another EVE Online, or something like that. SO:

Is Pathfinder Online worth it?

How does it compare to the MMOs I've played, namely City of Heroes/Villains (which I enjoyed for years but eventually drifted away from), World of Warcraft (which I enjoyed before it turned to s&@#), and Guild Wars (which I definitely appreciated certain aspects of, but only initially bought for the concept art I'd seen and found myself disappointed in its translation to the actual game, and got bored with more quickly than I did the other two)?

Broadly speaking, can the player base be expected to know how to play the game properly, and not just as an endless competitive bean-counting exercise?

Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
I think I once read that a developer said that they wanted Pathfinder Online to enable players to do almost anything you could do in tabletop Pathfinder (impossible, of course, hence the continued relevance of tabletop gaming in the age of computer games, but I nonetheless understand what they're shooting for there)...but on the other hand, I'd heard that they hired an exceedingly poor choice for lead designer who'd wound up making Pathfinder Online into just another EVE Online, or something like that.

You heard wrong.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Is Pathfinder Online worth it?

I strongly recommend you read up on the blogs. Specifically, Your Pathfinder Online Character and To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms. Those should give you enough of a picture of where PFO is headed that you should be able to figure out if it's something you want to spend more time investigating.

[Edit] For what it's worth, I was 100% sold after just reading the first blog I linked above.

Goblin Squad Member

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It's half finished and still being developed but that's also half the fun. It can be quite addictive.

Random thoughts:

- the game does suit people who like challenges, complex and intricate rules and very long term planning
- the current state of the game does not really suit "weekend warriors" who want to log on for a few hours on a Saturday night and kill a few people
- whilst you can solo play this game you are missing 80% of what it is about, if you play make a judicious choice of company/settlement and sign up sooner rather than later
- If you want a polished complete game wait for OE next year. Your dollars are NOT currently paying for a finished product, they are paying for the chance to get involved in the game early
- If you want to be involved in creating the guilds that will dominate the early years of the game do enrol now
- If you want an input into how the game turns out enrol now (be aware you may not get what you request but you will be heard)
- do not expect any "set piece" dragon killing quest lines, they do not exist, its not a bout TT or WoW style parties doing instances or quests
- do expect intersettlement rivalry to be significant

Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

How does it compare to the MMOs I've played, namely City of Heroes/Villains (which I enjoyed for years but eventually drifted away from), World of Warcraft (which I enjoyed before it turned to s@*+), and Guild Wars (which I definitely appreciated certain aspects of, but only initially bought for the concept art I'd seen and found myself disappointed in its translation to the actual game, and got bored with more quickly than I did the other two)?

Broadly speaking, can the player base be expected to know how to play the game properly, and not just as an endless competitive bean-counting exercise?

It's nothing at all like City of Heroes/Villains, World of Warcraft, or Guild Wars. Those are theme park MMOs with fixed classes, level and quest progression, an omnipresent guiding hand throughout the game even to level cap and beyond with focuses primarily on upgrading your loot and defeating the next mega boss.

Pathfinder is a sandbox MMO closer to EVE, hence what you heard. Games are called sandbox because like a sandbox, nothing exists in it other than the sand. It's up to you to turn that sand into something fun or creative. It has multiple class paths you can follow but you are free to mix and match as you desire, you are not restricted to being the class you chose at character creation. Most of the content currently is simply gathering materials to craft better loot, which will soon risk being destroyed or stolen when you die. This will see a rise in bandit activity and PVP in general.

Most of the features toted about the game are NOT YET IMPLEMENTED!

When the game is complete, it will be a virtually empty world of harvesting nodes, critters, and little else. It will be the players who build settlements from gathered materials, the players who decide the laws of the land, the players who form alliances and treaties or act as the tyrannical dictators.

If you are looking for the tabletop RPG Pathfinder experience, go play something like Dungeons and Dragons Online. It's the closest you'll get to that. Pathfinder Online is less about playing with a Dungeon Master and more about BEING the Dungeon Master and crafting your own universe. It's about building our very own campaign setting with everyone in the game having a say in the matter or the ability to influence it.

Those bandits you would normally kill at level 2? Those are players trying to steal your stuff. Those evil kings who rule with an iron fist? That's Golgotha, I can give you their coordinates. That famed holy order of the most holy holiness? Head on down to Brighthaven and you'll find their headquarters, again run by players.

TL:DR; If you came looking for a game like World of Warcraft, you came with mistaken preconceptions. This is a social-engineering game where you directly impact the world around you and shape it according to your collective visions.

'For Dummies!' - Pathfinder Online = MineCraft PVP server

Goblin Squad Member

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Pathfinder Online is a game that is in its second or early third year of a five year process, in other words, it's in Alpha.

Many of the features that you may read about in the Dev Blogs will make for an awesome MMO, if and when they find their way through the development process and become implemented.

I recommend that you follow the game for a bit. Watch videos of the game play. Read the extemes, both positive and negative with a grain of salt. Watch and follow for a bit longer, and then decide for yourself, "Is this a good place for me to spend my time and money?"

Goblin Squad Member

If you feel you are better off without the games you mentioned... maybe PFO will be a fun game for you. It's nothing like them.
If I were you, I'd wait about 4 months (when subscription charges begin for many of us) and look for what is called a 'DT account' for sale.

If the game survives, anyone who bails will be kicking themselves, and you will be golden.

Goblin Squad Member

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In my honest opinion PFO's challenge to it's players right now is not like "interact with this interesting and complex system" but rather more akin to "lets remove en arm and a leg from you and see how you fare in day to day life" kind of challenge.

I'd say wait and see.

Goblin Squad Member

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We Dwarves have been around since the beginning, and will be here long after it's over. Dwarves like to believe they helped plan the creation, and in Pathfinder Online, we are right!

The funnest part for me is not what is, but imagining what it will be. Building strong settlements, exploring new territory (the current map is only a fraction of the game area that will be available when the retail era begins (called Open Enrollment).

It has some rough edges right now, but like others have said, it's early...2nd year in to a 5 year plan. Still, it's fun to plan out your XP expenditures, chatting with other members of your settlement to decide who does what, what you can and can't manage to do without outside help, and working out those issues amongst yourselves, and calling in friends for help.

So far, so good. The development team is remarkably in-tune with the players, and take the player feedback right back to their desk to work on solutions. Nihimon above suggested reading the blogs. That's a good idea, and old school table toppers were quite put off by the PvP nature of the game mechanics as described in the early days, so most of those players are either sold on the current state of the game, or bailed long ago. Most of us here are in for the long haul. While we might not agree on some of the finer details of the game mechanics, we all seem to think getting in on the ground floor is pretty damn cool.

Fanndis Goldbraid
Ambassador
Forgeholm

Goblin Squad Member

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One thing I will say. The progress between early Alpha and now has been astounding.

Goblin Squad Member

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I know there is a lot of comparisons to EVE, with the most important being that XP is gained over time, regardless of actions in game. Actively playing the game increases your "wealth" and resources.

But I still find aspects of Ultima Online and early Star Wars Galaxies mixed in as well.

To enjoy playing now, you have to have a long term view of the game. You have to accept that a lot is missing right now, but you can still build up a foundation of resources to take advantage of the changes as they come online.

Waiting till OE is not a bad plan. Sure the early pioneers will have a good amount of invested capital and time, but on the flip side the player based economy will be well seeded and fairly liquid. Also the game will allow new players to be effective very quickly. There is already a set of builds using only the 1000 starting XP that can be useful in PvP.

Scarab Sages

Thank you for your responses.

Are the rules at least like tabletop Pathfinder in most basic respects (i.e. the way classes and races and skills and feats and magic and whatnot work)?

Some of this is definitely interesting, but some of it makes it sound like it's much more of an economics game rather than, you know, a grand adventure.

Since you say the game's final form is still in flux, might the possibility yet exist that experience gain will become based on in-game heroics rather than the passage of real-world time? I won't lie, I don't think I like that part.

Regarding Companies/Settlements: I'm assuming those are the game's equivalent of Guilds? What would you say to someone who's always had TERRIBLE luck with Guilds? Almost every Guild I've joined winds up turning into a ghost ship, especially if I get along well with the other people in it. I'd think I was a jinx if I believed in that sort of thing.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Thank you for your responses.

Are the rules at least like tabletop Pathfinder in most basic respects (i.e. the way classes and races and skills and feats and magic and whatnot work)?

No - they follow pretty well the lore of Golarion and it would fit well in this respect into Kingmaker - but if you want the CRB represented then you will be disappointed.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Some of this is definitely interesting, but some of it makes it sound like it's much more of an economics game rather than, you know, a grand adventure.

See above my quote to Kingmaker. Crafting and building a settlement is key.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Since you say the game's final form is still in flux, might the possibility yet exist that experience gain will become based on in-game heroics rather than the passage of real-world time? I won't lie, I don't think I like that part.

No - that seems absoluteley unlikely. You gain by herorics some benefits for your company/settlement but not XP.

This game also inverts the XP - you use them to buy feats.

I love both - Pathfinder Tabletop and Pathfinder Online but what connects them is not the ruleset.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The rules are entirely different. The world is very much the same, but don't expect spells per day, round of bardic music, or swift actions to be in PFO.

Scarab Sages

Okay, I see the 11 core classes are available - what about the other classes that have come out since then?

Goblin Squad Member

It's very unlikely that something as fundamental as XP Over Time will change.

While Adventure is one of the pillars of PFO, an MMO can't be just about the kinds of things you do at the tabletop. PFO is intentionally developing a lot of interesting things to do for roles that are typically not present at the tabletop, but which are obviously a part of the world of Golarion.

The rules are very much inspired by the spirit of the tabletop rules, and many of the names and mechanics will be familiar, but where necessary they will be adapted to make sense in a game where thousands of players are constantly interacting with the world.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Okay, I see the 11 core classes are available - what about the other classes that have come out since then?

The four basic roles are done, with the core 11 being on the feature list for implementation in the future (NOT "real soon now"). The rest exist in the realm of possible long-term (6+ years from now) expansion.

Goblin Squad Member

Right now there are Humans, Elves and Dwarfs.

The four base classes (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, and Cleric) are in the game as "Roles." You get access to better role specific feats (like weapon specialization) as you have more levels in a Role. But there is nothing limiting you from being multi-roled. (Aside from total XP)

The system is NOT d20 based. But some terms and ideas do carry over. Spells like Hideous Laughter and Bless are in the game.

There is some references to the Gods of Golarion and Clerics to learn Domains.

The Pathfindery-ness is still minimal or just in the background from the game world itself. However, players are more active in creating and maintaining the Pathfinder feel. Many settlements have pulled from existing PF Lore for their own background, but you have to go looking for it.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Okay, I see the 11 core classes are available - what about the other classes that have come out since then?

No - there are only 4 available - Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric.

They also work differently. You buy feats and if you have the right feats you go up in a class. But you can play classless or have a build with a Greatsword, some rogue armour, some cleric implement to heal and a staff to cast all at once.

Not saying this makes sense - but the classes are there just to guide you towards a sensible build as they demand certain feats at certain levels to progress.

I do ignore the classes and just build up as I see fit.

Goblin Squad Member

A key difference: one buys, with XP, what in tabletop are class features gained with going up a level. When one's bought enough, one's awarded an achievement noting the increase in role level, but the achievement has no game-mechanical effect in itself.

There are no classes, as tabletop uses them, and players are free to spend their XP on anything they like, from all roles. XP in PFO serves an almost exactly opposite purpose to tabletop.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I can't sell you on a game I've already given up on.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
When one's bought enough, one's awarded an achievement noting the increase in role level, but the achievement has no game-mechanical effect in itself.

Minor quibble: role level is a gate for advancing feature feats, which in turn grant keywords for implements like trophy charms and the wizard's spellbooks. I think it doesn't affect us much now, but may be more relevent later.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Thank you for your responses.

Are the rules at least like tabletop Pathfinder in most basic respects (i.e. the way classes and races and skills and feats and magic and whatnot work)?

The classes have the same names, and the same general themes. They don't follow the same progression. There are only three races so far: Humans, elves and dwarves. Skills and feats and magic do not use the same mechanics as the tabletop game. (Legally, they can't. Also, some of those mechanics work far better in a turn-based game than they do in real time.)

Quote:
Some of this is definitely interesting, but some of it makes it sound like it's much more of an economics game rather than, you know, a grand adventure.

To date, there aren't any dungeons. There are a few quest givers, but their quests don't add up to a grand narrative. The biggest "adventure" content right now is defeating 'escalations' - territorial incursions by goblin tribes, out-of-work mercenaries, would-be conquerors from neighboring countries (Ustalav), religious fanatics (Razmirans), etc.

Quote:
Since you say the game's final form is still in flux, might the possibility yet exist that experience gain will become based on in-game heroics rather than the passage of real-world time? I won't lie, I don't think I like that part.

I suppose it's theoretically possible, but it's incredibly unlikely. (In fact, Star Wars Galaxies is taken by many people as proof that changing the basic game system after release is MMO suicide.) In-game actions do have some bearing on how quickly you can advance, though. If you want to advance as a fighter, you'll need to get out there and swing a sword, axe, or mace at some monsters. If you want to be an alchemist, you'll need to brew up a variety of alchemical weapons, cures, and utility items.

Quote:
Regarding Companies/Settlements: I'm assuming those are the game's equivalent of Guilds? What would you say to someone who's always had TERRIBLE luck with Guilds? Almost every Guild I've joined winds up turning into a ghost ship, especially if I get along well with the other people in it. I'd think I was a jinx if I believed in that sort of thing.

I've had some bad luck, too, over my MMO career, and found a few stable, fun groups. As usual, finding the right group can make or break your experience.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Side note: I frequently see people trying to rate PFO on how "Pathfinder-y" it is. I suspect that what many of these people are actually rating is how "Pathfinder Society Organized Play-y" (or PFS-y) it is.

Tabletop Pathfinder is a system, not a play style. PFS is a particular play style (short discrete scenarios, no maps larger than a Paizo Flip-Mat, mandatory player cooperation/no PVP, everyone works for a faction within the same organization, no item creation, nearly- to fully-random globe-trotting, 'fight-fight-social skill-boss fight' scenario design - with a few exceptions.)

Tabletop Pathfinder can be used to play a PFS-style game, but it can also be used to play many other styles. As others have noted, the current PFO play style is closer to the Kingmaker play style than the PFS play style. That makes it less PFO-y, but not less Pathfinder-y. As more game systems are implemented, PFO will be able to support more play styles.

Edit: Is PFO Pathfinder-y? To me, it is. Those are distinctly Golarion goblins outside the starter settlements. The escalations come from Ustalav, Razmiran, and the Mordant Spire. The random scraps of lore (letters, notes, and book fragments) that players can find are firmly rooted in Golarion. It's not very PFS-y, but that's fine by me.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
Side note: I frequently see people trying to rate PFO on how "Pathfinder-y" it is. I suspect that what many of these people are actually rating is how "Pathfinder Society Organized Play-y" (or PFS-y) it is.

I know I use that term a lot. :) But I mean Pathfinder-y more in such of immersion to Golarion.

There is very little exposure and explanation Lore in the game. For example, your local vault lists your "Abadar Credit." But without knowing from sources outside of PFO, I would have no idea who/what Abadar is.

Slight more obscure is "Who are the Mordant Spire, and what are they doing here?" Aside from being a nice high level escalation to farm. Now I can go find out from all the books I have, but nothing in game tells me.

My expectation is similar to lore that is presented though an Adventure Path. I don't know the Kingmaker AP that well, but I am familiar with its premise. And I have perused the River Kingdoms source book.

Right now people playing are similar in that we all have a deep/strong investment in to Pathfinder system and world. But what about exposing new players to the lore?

Goblin Squad Member

LazarX wrote:
I can't sell you on a game I've already given up on.

But still coming to the forums regularly to express. Bravo!

Goblin Squad Member

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Yeah the only aspect of tabletop they seem adamant on keeping is heals being "touch based."

God only knows why.

PFO is s game with great potential; I recommend giving it a try! Just know it is still in development so don't be surprised if things you take for granted are not implemented. They will be in time!

Goblin Squad Member

Lemkii Twins wrote:
"Who are the Mordant Spire, and what are they doing here?"

If you go into a hex with an Escalation, you can hover over the Escalation Icon on your mini-map and get a description of the events.

One in particular that stands out in my memory is "Ogg the Undying". Reading the description in-game, I learned that Ogg is the only Ogre to have been resurrected at a Shrine of Pharasma. He developed a compulsion to eat his own husks left behind, and is determined to gain control of all the Shrines of Pharasma, believing that doing so will grant immortality to his entire tribe.

If players begin searching the internet for more information, they'll undoubtedly stumble upon pathfinderwiki.com and paizo.com. You never know, such a search may be the event that starts a new player on a lifetime of enjoying Pathfinder at the tabletop and online.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hardin Steele wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I can't sell you on a game I've already given up on.
But still coming to the forums regularly to express. Bravo!

Consider it a public service, such as reminding some folks that this game is not Warcraft and there is no such thing as non-consenusal PVP. If you log onto the game, you've consented.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemkii Twins wrote:


I know I use that term a lot. :) But I mean Pathfinder-y more in such of immersion to Golarion.

It's more accurate to say it's immersion to a small chunk of the River Kingdoms.


I think others have explained the game well. The easiest things is to just buy in at $50 (includes 1 month game time) and try it out. Even if the game doesn't rock for you, you get to crowdforge the game, which is really a unique experience.

If $50 is a big deal, then just wait until someone you know plays and try it on their account.

(I won't tell) ;-)

The game is growing. It's only a matter of time until one of your friends plays it.

Goblin Squad Member

I would suggest you read some of the blogs on Goblinworks.com to get an idea about the vision for the game, recognising that most of that is in the future. A number of things you say you don't like are primary features of the game, and the rational as to why are well explained there. The game is a lot of fun right now for people who are willing to put up with frustrations for the chance to watch and assist in its development.

Goblin Squad Member

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What its not:

1) Its NOT TT Pathfinder or PFS. Among other things D&D based games already exist, Pathfinder TT is unsuitable to an MMO and there are copyright issues anyway. If you are hoping to bring your TT Pathfinder character directly into PFO and duplicate the build you will be very disappointed.

2) It is NOT a fantasy EVE online. It has a similar capless skill system but lacks the "anything goes harass whoever you feel like and scam away" attitude of EVE.

3) It is not a traditional WoW style MMO where you grind through instances to get the "best" gear and level up which is outdated in the next patch/release and you do it all again.

What it is:

1) An open world where the groups in different regions are already developing a different characteristic and personality. There are already places where if you try and gather you will be tracked down and killed by the locals and other areas where free trade is encouraged. Not everywhere is safe.

2) A very political game where the friends you keep and the settlement you associate with is rapidly becoming very important

3) A game where you do get to have a say. Sometimes what you say/suggest will be considered but not implemented (and a few ppl have got upset and thrown tantrums and quit over this) but there is every sign it IS listened to.

Scarab Sages

Thank you all very much. It does sound interesting in its own way, but I don't think it will be for me.

Final question, then: Any idea when we can look forward to Pathfinder computer games in the vein of Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Planescape: Torment/Neverwinter Nights? THAT is the sort of thing I really want.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Thank you all very much. It does sound interesting in its own way, but I don't think it will be for me.

Final question, then: Any idea when we can look forward to Pathfinder computer games in the vein of Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Planescape: Torment/Neverwinter Nights? THAT is the sort of thing I really want.

First, I hope you keep an eye on PFO for the next few years. It might start to look more attractive as more features are developed and as word gets out about its community and the actions taken by the devs to keep it from degenerating into a murder simulator :)

I believe there's a CRPG in the works that's largely based on the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game. I'm not aware of any other development projects. It might be that what you're looking for shows up in PFO in the form of Adventure Modules.

Thanks for stopping by and asking questions :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Obsidian is the group that is working on that computer game based on the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

News Article

Goblin Squad Member

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Thank you all very much. It does sound interesting in its own way, but I don't think it will be for me.

Final question, then: Any idea when we can look forward to Pathfinder computer games in the vein of Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Planescape: Torment/Neverwinter Nights? THAT is the sort of thing I really want.

Officially no.

There was a comment a while back about to the effect: "We would like to see a CRPG as well."

But as of this time nothing is known in the pipeline.

Goblin Squad Member

It is all very basic now. If you aren't trying to engage in settlement management or like to trudge around by yourself, I would advocate you wait quite a while before trying it out.

Goblin Squad Member

The issue with PFO is that it takes 2.5 years to max some of the aspects of a specific build. I believe my calculations determined that maxing all combat related skills relevant to a single build took 4.75 years, and it was later pointed out I forgot expendable training, and of course that's only going off the skills in the game at the point in alpha I last played.

That's all assuming of course you are 100% focused on this single combat build and choose not to take any skills for other builds you might play around with, and choose not to take any gathering skills whatsoever (which you really probably should on any adventurer character.)

It's also discounting the need for attributes to raise certain skills.

Basically what I'm getting at is while the power curve does excellerate fast at the beginning you're still looking at over 5 years dedicated training to max or over 10 realistically for most people. You've got to think about how long you want to have to play before you reach the point that most of the population is not leaps and bounds ahead of you.

Also stop to consider the vast majority of people currently playing have a free alt allowing them to streamline their playing. Chances are you won't.

I would say the upside is you don't have to grind, but truth is that's a lie and we all know it.

So if you really want to play this game buy a DT and play it now so you won't be hopelessly stuck behind the curve by the time you do want to.

The longer you wait, the higher the barrier to entry is going to get. Once this game is 5+ years old if you haven't started training yet I wouldn't even bother. If this game makes it that long.

Goblin Squad Member

Yep.

And that stuff is all a good thing.

Because hopefully the people who feel a need to min/max and somehow bolster there ego by being "top" of some computer game that 99% of the real world does not know exists will go play WoW or something :D

The big flaw of most games is its way to easy to max level in a few weeks or months and then there is nothing to do but run around and big note yourself and wait till the devs bring out a patch that makes your previous build/gear obsolete till you level up again.

This results in a huge churn with just a few sad souls who hang around forever while everyone else plays for a while and then quits to be replaced by a new lot.

The churn of course is good for cash flow but makes the game spretty pathetic longterm.

Goblin Squad Member

Do you even understand the concept of this game? The point (supposedly) was player driven content. You don't need developer created content if you give players the tools for meaningful and engaging social interaction. I can promise you if well done that is an engaging model for a game. The game PFO tries so desperately to compete with us EVE. Unlike PFO EVE literally has absolutely 0 grind. All progression is time based. Last time I checked it's the most popular sandbox title on the market by a significant factor.

Now tell me what content does time based XP accumulation give? Almost none, that's its point. It allows you to engage in the content you WANT to be doing and not what you need to do in order to progress. Player interaction is the key, not leveling.

I would argue based on this that you could make an extremely compelling MMO where all differences in major combat stats are gear based and gear is continually being gained and lost making the constant flow of the economy and player driven action the only two sources of constantly evolving and highly compelling content.

In other words, a 0 barrier to entry game in terms of raw player stats. PFO will never adopt such an approach but for the moment I am talking in terms of how to make a great MMO and not how to fix PFO.

Anyway if you think the way to stop min-maxers is to increase progression time you're doing the exact opposite of what you want to be doing. But that's obviously over your head and I've said it all before so I won't repeat it at length. Anyway I wish you many RL friends who will decide not to play this game with you because they aren't interested waiting a year to be half as strong as the people they are fighting.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:
Unlike PFO EVE literally has absolutely 0 grind.

False. You still need money to support your XP (can't fly a ship you can't buy), and all roads to money are a grind of one form or another (including buying PLEX - that is just an RL grind).

Goblin Squad Member

Kadere wrote:
Quote:
Unlike PFO EVE literally has absolutely 0 grind.
False. You still need money to support your XP (can't fly a ship you can't buy), and all roads to money are a grind of one form or another (including buying PLEX - that is just an RL grind).

I'd like you to list as many forms of content in EVE as you can that do not have the potential to generate ISK if you're good at it.

Time based skill training aside (which as I previously stated generates no content) would there be anything stopping you if your friend joins the the game and you want to toss him some of your spare ships/equipment so you can go do the same conent together without him being gimped?

Skill training aside what permanant changes can you make to your character that will give you an advantage that causes people feel they need to grind to your level to not be at a stat based disadvantage?

The kind of grind that offends me is when I feel like I need to put off doing what I want to be doing in order to not be at some ridiculous stat disadvantage.

PFO and EVE remove the the grind (Well... partially for PFO) but then add back in this time based thing that will block you from enjoying the content you want to enjoy until you been playing for X ammount of time.

So the main point is why? Why is needed? Other than the opprotunity for no skill vets to beat up on newb's who might be able to beat them without their skill training what is the point of ANY skill progression?

I realize the answer to PFO is because leveling is integral to making it feel like Pathfinder but given I see no compelling case that leveling combat skills is neccasary for a good MMO what are the upsides to having PFOs leveling times be so damned long?

Goblin Squad Member

Kadere wrote:
Quote:
Unlike PFO EVE literally has absolutely 0 grind.
False. You still need money to support your XP (can't fly a ship you can't buy), and all roads to money are a grind of one form or another (including buying PLEX - that is just an RL grind).

Sorry Kadere, nothing even remotely close to a grind in EVE.

God this was so long ago, so if not completely correct...

There are (were) 3 tutorials a new pilot could run:

Military, Industrial, Exploration

A series of 10 missions each. Each would give you the skill books and civilian version of fittings you needed, and upon completion the ship best suited for that activity. You also earned a few million isk while running them, enough to replace any one of the ships a few times.

Then you went out into the stars and did whatever you wanted to. There were no Kill X number of this before you could train Y skill.

Making Isk was never a grind, because you could make roughly the same amount doing nearly every activity you could think of.

If I wanted to make 10 million isk:

I could run a level 3 mission, between bounties and loot / salvage and easy 10 million isk.

I could scan down an archaeological site, discover a gate and and pull rare gear or resources from that site, and sell on market.

I could buy and sell on the market, in one station, and make the isk.

I could transport goods from one location to another.

I could mine and make the isk.

I could hunt "rats" (mobs) in a 0.0 asteroid belt and get bounties, loot / salvage.

I could turn to piracy (pvp) and hold ships for ransom.

I could take raw materials, manufacture ammo (for example) and then sell on market.

I could research and discover a T2 version of a blue print, and sell it or make the items for use or sale.

I could transport someone else's goods for pay.

I could bounty hunt players.

..... I think you get the idea. I have probably missed a dozen activities.

By far the worse aspect of PFO, and possibly the greatest mistake they have made is gating skills to weapon kill achievements.

That is a grind. Earning isk in EvE has too many possibilities to ever be considered a grind, and you have access to nearly all of them at fairly low skill.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Making Isk was never a grind, because you could make roughly the same amount doing nearly every activity you could think of.

I don't really agree with that. Someone who's good at manululating the market will probably generate money faster than even a very good bounty hunter / mercenary / pirate but if PvPing is what you want to be doing what does it matter who's making money faster?

Also the price of the ship rises drastically faster than the power level. When you consider that you probably get some of their equipment when they die and they lose all that value well... that's a stat disadvantage I'm much more happy to accept.

I generally intentionally gear my PVP builds down a bit unless there is some major objective being fought over because you don't want to lose too big if you get zerged or something. No matter how well geared you are and how good you get, everyone loses sometimes.

Goblin Squad Member

I like that feats are gated behind achievements. If I played 20 hrs/week and were completely equal in all aspects to somebody who played 2 hrs/week with the same start date as me, why would I play? The "grind" argument is tired and silly IMO. It also makes sense that to improve your skill at a weapon, you actually have to PRACTICE COMBAT! Anyways, that whole conversation belongs in another thread. To the OP, this definitely doesn't sound like the game you were looking for.

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