Upgrading Gamin?


Pathfinder Society

3/5

I have Gamin, he's reforged and enhanced with a boon. Can I upgrade the sword any further or is it stuck at +2.

Liberty's Edge

Not according to the FAQ, so it looks like it is stuck at +2.

Shadow Lodge

I'm not entirely sure, honestly. It is only a "named" item in some senses. Being a unique, (only one of them exist) and Intellegent, it has a name, in the sense that a Character has a name, because it is it's own creature, (that is, it acts on it's own, has senses, can speak, etc. . .).

Once it's "reforged" though, it is 100% a normal magical item for it's kind, an Intellegent, +2 Allying Longsword, (as I recall), and nothing in the FAQ really addresses it. It is not a specific type of weapon, like a Flame Tongue or Holy Avenger, which is what the FAQ really speaks about.

Silver Crusade 3/5

It is a named item. It is a specific weapon. There is no nuance here.

Silver Crusade 5/5

What does The Fox say? Something correct.

Shadow Lodge

The Fox wrote:
It is a named item. It is a specific weapon. There is no nuance here.

I'm honestly curious how? I've always defined a named item as something like a Holy Avenger, Mace of Smiting, or Caster's Shield

That is to say, the Holy Avenger is not just a +2 Cold Iron Holy Longsword, it has specific abilities that you can not just buy and add to any given weapon to make it a "holy avenger".

Similarly, the Caster's Shield is not a simple +1 Light Shield that someone named "Caster's", but rather a specific magic item that can not be duplicated onto another similar item. For example, you can add the Light Fortification to any magical shield, but you can not add the "unnamed ability to scribe a single scroll" onto a shield.

That's what makes it a "named item".

According to the FAQ, the fact that Gamin is Intelligent is not relevant, as the FAQ doesn't say you can not upgrade an Intelligent Item, only that they are illegal without a Chronicle Sheet to buy them. If you already have Gamin, ad infact have the upgraded version, I'm assuming that there are the two specific chronicles involved.

Once Gamin is upgraded, it looses the Broken Condition, and is just a +2 Allying Longsword that is an Intelligent Item. No more unique features. That is to say, anyone with the right Caster Level and Feats could make an exact duplicate of "Gamin the Misforged" just like they could a +1 Flaming Mace called "the Hangover".

Now I could be wrong, but I can see, just based on the FAQ, it going either way, and I'm honestly not sure which "intent" would favor.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

DM Beckett wrote:
[...]and is just a +2 Allying Longsword that is an Intelligent Item. No more unique features.

I don't know, having a name seems to be pretty unique to me, especially in PFS. I would not think there is any intent that reforging Gamin should allow you to consider "just" an intelligent +2 Allying Longwood. I think he's still a unique item.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

DM Beckett wrote:
Once Gamin is upgraded, it looses the Broken Condition, and is just a +2 Allying Longsword that is an Intelligent Item. No more unique features. That is to say, anyone with the right Caster Level and Feats could make an exact duplicate of "Gamin the Misforged" just like they could a +1 Flaming Mace called "the Hangover".

That is incorrect.

Quote:
Neither of these improvements modify the sword’s market price or resale value.

The boon allows you to "increase Gamin the Misforged’s weapon enhancement bonus to +2." Note that it does NOT change Gamin to an unnamed intelligent item.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Just a shame we can't change it to another kind of sword. :-(

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

5 people marked this as a favorite.

It's a unique, named item. It can't be upgraded from where it is once reforged unless allowed by a future Chronicle sheet.

Silver Crusade 3/5

As an aside, there is a chronicle that has two versions of a named weapon. In the lower subtier, the weapon is non-magical. In the upper subtier, it is magical.

Here is the relevant text from the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally.

That seems to say that the weapon in the lower subtier can be upgraded to have any magical enhancements you want, while the weapon in the upper subtier cannot be upgraded at all. Strange.

The Scenario:
Day of the Demon

The Item:
Hell's Gavel

Silver Crusade 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
It's a unique, named item. It can't be upgraded from where it is once reforged unless allowed by a future Chronicle sheet.

Thank's Mike. By the way, it would be extremely cool to continue seeing Chronicles allowing upgrades of specific items, especially this particular specific item. :)


Huh. I just went through the adventure to acquire Gamin. It's nice to know there is something that can make it so it's not broken anymore. Too bad the guy that went through it is my brawler.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

4 people marked this as a favorite.
The Fox wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
It's a unique, named item. It can't be upgraded from where it is once reforged unless allowed by a future Chronicle sheet.

Thank's Mike. By the way, it would be extremely cool to continue seeing Chronicles allowing upgrades of specific items, especially this particular specific item. :)

I agree and it also allows us to continue including interesting and unique things to Chronicles.

Shadow Lodge

So now I'm curious what a "named item" is, exactly. In the rules and game mechanics sense. I say this both because A.) I name all of my weapons once they become masterwork and B.) because I've seen a few Chronicle Sheets that list things like "Skullcracker", +1 Mace, (I'll need to look through my chronicles for exact examples, that just an approximate).

Spoiler:

If it is not the above, (Holy Avenger, Caster's Shield) than what exactly is it?

How about "Trusty Buddy" the nonmagical Adamantine Crowbar from Golemworks Incident?

Or "Hell's Gavel" from Day of the Demon (Large +1 demon bane heavy mace)

Silver Crusade 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Beckett, please consider adding spoiler tags when discussing items on Chronicle sheets. Thank you.

An answer regarding Trusty Buddy.

Spoiler:
This is a nonmagical crowbar. It cannot be enchanted. It is not a weapon. It is a crowbar.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

The Fox wrote:

Beckett, please consider adding spoiler tags when discussing items on Chronicle sheets. Thank you.

An answer regarding Trusty Buddy.

** spoiler omitted **

So can Trusty Buddy....

Trusty Buddy spoiler:
Bypass all types of DR, as it is written in the chronicle sheet? Or is it limited to only DR/adamantine?

Sovereign Court

Become a magus, paladin, or other weapon enhancing class.

Lantern Lodge

Here's a proposal for a GM boon (or maybe even an auction boon): Permission to upgrade a single unique magic item.

Sure, it opens up a can of worms with pricing, but with the space available in a special boon you could probably work through it. Say... give a rough guide according to price (e.g. if the Unique item is a weapon costing between 32k and 49.999k, then upgrading the weapon with another +1 enhancement would cost 50k; unique armor costing between 4k and 8.999k would cost 9k to upgrade with another +1; in other words you could just determine the effective enhancement of an item according to its price)(this would also prevent Magi and Arcanists from upgrading their free Blackblades with the boon)(Though that would be awesome)(Just too awesome).

4/5

DM Beckett: Gamin is an intelligent item. It's a character. Find another NPC that would allow you to do an "upgrade" on them...

I agree we could use clarification for the other items you listed - I think just having a nickname isn't the same as being a unique item or "named" item. But it should be clear for Gamin.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Genuine wrote:

Here's a proposal for a GM boon (or maybe even an auction boon): Permission to upgrade a single unique magic item.

Sure, it opens up a can of worms with pricing, but with the space available in a special boon you could probably work through it. Say... give a rough guide according to price (e.g. if the Unique item is a weapon costing between 32k and 49.999k, then upgrading the weapon with another +1 enhancement would cost 50k; unique armor costing between 4k and 8.999k would cost 9k to upgrade with another +1; in other words you could just determine the effective enhancement of an item according to its price)(this would also prevent Magi and Arcanists from upgrading their free Blackblades with the boon)(Though that would be awesome)(Just too awesome).

You do know that Black Blades cannot be upgraded, outside of the upgrades made by the levels in the class that grants the feature, yes?

Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?
No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Nova Scotia—Halifax aka Redgar

Since this is a thread about upgrades and a particular nifty sword, I thought I should ask this here. (Tried searching the PFS forum, did not find an answer).

Is there an upgrade path to the base "item"? e.g.

Proposed Upgrade Path:
Mithral Longsword (necessarily MW) --> +1 Mithral Longsword --> +1 Mithral Allying Longsword --> Gamin the Curmudgeon.

Alternatively:

Broken Mithral Longsword --> +1 Broken Mithral Longsword --> +1 Broken Mithral Allying Longsword --> Gamin the Curmudgeon?

Unnecessary Rambling about character:
My lvl 1 Pally just stumbled across this item, so I have the chance to try to build a character that plays this opportunity to the hilt. Given the expense and drawbacks associated with using this boon companion, however, it's going to take quite some time before I have the funds necessary to even acquire same. Which is going to mean using another weapon for several levels.

RotRL: Prt 1 has previously taught me (the player) to acquire a magic weapon ASAP. Hence the desire to make 'instalment payments' towards our friend.

Plus, from a fluff perspective, it would be fun to make occasional 'off-hand' comments to no-one in particular (i.e. my sword). Then when I finally acquired the genuine article, all of a sudden the rest of the table would hear 'no-one in particular' answer back. :)

I understand if the answer is no, however, in which case I could look into investing into a +1 secondary weapon (Heavy Mace, perhaps), and then travelling back across Golarion in a few levels to be re-united with a friend.

5/5

Redgar wrote:

Since this is a thread about upgrades and a particular nifty sword, I thought I should ask this here. (Tried searching the PFS forum, did not find an answer).

Is there an upgrade path to the base "item"? e.g. ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Good question...most named items can be built to that way...

However, I'd probably err on the side of caution with Gamin, as he's not only named he's unique (since he's sentient). I don't know as it would be possible unfortunately...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

For what it's worth, Redgar, you don't need a magic weapon ASAP; you need access to a magic weapon ASAP. Personally, I don't usually buy a magic weapon until I'm ready for +2 somewhere in the mid levels. Until then, I just carry a masterwork weapon and a couple of oils of magic weapon. Run into something incorporeal or with nasty DR/magic, use the oil. The rest of the time, the extra +1 damage isn't worth the 2,000gp that could have gone elsewhere. Not until you're ready for the plunge into special abilities and such (at which point you can afford Gamin).

So in short, you don't need to have a +1 weapon any time soon, and therefore don't need an upgrade path to Gamin.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Also, you're a paladin. You have Smite Evil.

Liberty's Edge

I personally will save for an Adamantine weapon before going for a +1 weapon. And as Jiggy said, I can use a few Oils of Magic Weapon as needed.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I prefer Oil of Bless Weapon. There's a handful of evil critters with DR/metal or Good, and the crit effect is a nice bonus as well. Meanwhile, non-evil critters with DR/magic are pretty rare.

Silver Crusade

This was truly a treat from Paizo.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/55/55/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Gamin the Reforged + 9th level Magus = carrying around a +5 weapon when needed :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

I'm looking forward to my paladin getting enough prestige to restore him myself. :)

Silver Crusade

Hello,

I am a bit late to this discussion, but I didn't want to start a new thread for a related question, so...

I was wondering whether you can buy Gamin at some later point, rather than right away? My GM today said that I have to buy it in the same chronicle I got it, but my paladin simply doesn't have enough gold for it yet, and I hoped to put the purchase off by few chronicles. The adventure text says that you are offered the sword by its owner, but it doesn't say that you have to grab it right away or cross it off your chronicle forever.

I know about this post that says "Acquiring Gamin in the long-term requires purchasing him from the Chronicle sheet as per normal." But what exactly is "as per normal" for named intelligent weapons?

Thanks in advance!

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

KoverasAlvane wrote:
My GM today said that I have to buy it in the same chronicle I got it

Your GM is wrong.

Guide to PFSOP pg22 wrote:
Some items may be so valuable that the gold you receive in one scenario is insufficient to purchase it. If you are unable to purchase a valuable item immediately, you can save up your gold and purchase it during or after another scenario.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

As far as I recall, Gamin is listed on the chronicle sheet so he is able to be purchased at any future time by that character (respecting any purchase limits on the chronicle sheet, e.g. limit 1). It does not need to be right away.

Shadow Lodge

Yes, but the for the second boon, it does specify it needs to be done at the end of the scenario. It's unclear if it is just that one portion or the entirety.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Yes, failing to earn Gamin in the scenario results in the GM crossing him off of the chronicle. However, if the party avoids that result they can purchase Gamin at any future point.

Silver Crusade

Alright, thank you for clearing that up!

@"Devil's Advocate": "Second boon?" You mean "Gift of the

Spoiler:
Ghaele
"?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Redgar wrote:

Since this is a thread about upgrades and a particular nifty sword, I thought I should ask this here. (Tried searching the PFS forum, did not find an answer).

Is there an upgrade path to the base "item"? e.g. ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I asked this question a while ago in the "Upgrading Items" thread and the consensus was no. The reason for that being there are no RAW costs given for a broken item.

The character I have that has the ability to buy Gamin is an Oracle with the Wrecker curse -- all weapons she wields automatically gain the broken condition. So she's definitely planning on buying him when I have the money, and won't worry about repairing him.

Shadow Lodge

KoverasAlvane wrote:

Alright, thank you for clearing that up!

@"Devil's Advocate": "Second boon?" You mean "Gift of the ** spoiler omitted **"?

No, the second chronicle boon that alters Gamin, it specifies at the end of that session

5/5

DM Beckett wrote:
KoverasAlvane wrote:

Alright, thank you for clearing that up!

@"Devil's Advocate": "Second boon?" You mean "Gift of the ** spoiler omitted **"?

No, the second chronicle boon that alters Gamin, it specifies at the end of that session

You're talking about totally different scenarios it seems.

Spoiler:
Master Smith's Service can be used at the end of AN adventure, it is not restricted to THIS adventure. It can be used at a later date.

Silver Crusade

DM Beckett wrote:
No, the second chronicle boon that alters Gamin, it specifies at the end of that session

Oh, so there IS a continuation to Gamin's story, after all. My GM teased something along the lines, which is why he recommended I buy the sword right away. :) Thanks!

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Wisconsin—Pleasant Prairie aka Brew City Crafter

The talk about Paladins aquiring Gamin and eventually having him enhanced brings a related question to mind. Can Gamin be chosen to be part of said paladin's Divine Bond?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Absolutely.

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Upgrading Gamin? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.