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Based on the FAQ:
Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Can a half-orc who gains the Skill trait by losing darkvision then swap skilled for a human trait like Heart of the Wilderness?
I argue that you can because the bolded parts of the FAQ indicate that the small list given is not exhaustive and in fact it is clarified to be all rules elements that are fair game for this racial transparency.
I suppose one could argue against it based on the premise that there is no rule that explicitly allows chained feat swapping, but I would counter that the FAQ ruling is a reversal of an earlier ruling and given that, of course such a rule would not have been on the minds of the game developers at the time the books were written.
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But there is no rule saying that you cannot replace it further nor is there anything that actually puts them into distinct states. I also think it makes sense to allow it. The idea of allowing half-orcs to take Skilled is that instead of inheriting an orcish trait (darkvision) they inherited a trait from there human parent. So why couldn't they inherit a different trait instead of Skilled since it is possible that their human parent did not possess the skilled trait to begin with?
Furthermore I do not get why you think it only applies to race traits and not racial traits. The FAQ ruling was clearly worded to include all rules elements.
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Sure.
Half-orcs have the following alternate racial trait:
Skilled Second- and third-generation half-orcs often favor their human heritage more than their orc heritage. Half-orcs with this trait gain 1 additional skill rank per level. This racial trait replaces darkvision.
Skilled is a standard human racial trait which can be replaced with alternate racial traits such as:
Heart of the Mountains Humans born in the mountains are skilled at negotiating heights and precipices. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Climb checks and Acrobatics checks to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground. Furthermore, they are considered acclimated to the effects of high altitude. This racial trait replaces skilled.
So why wouldn't this swap be allowed given the FAQ ruling regarding half-breed/parent race transparency:
Darkvision -> Skilled -> Heart of the Mountains
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Darkvision -> Skilled -> Heart of the Mountains
Fair Enough.
Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Your GM has to interpret "so on" as alternate racial traits, since you don't have a hard rule to assert. Some will, some won't.
No, you can't double swap racial traits... like that... that's seriously going beyond the RAW AND RAI of the FAQ.
In fact, I can tell you exactly why I know that racial TRAITS like that are NOT included...
Your racial heritage mingles with your mythic power to become more pronounced.
Prerequisite(s): Racial Heritage.
Benefit: You gain a single racial trait of your choice from the race you picked when you took non-mythic Racial Heritage. That racial trait can't modify your size or ability scores. You also gain the racial language of the race (if any) if you don't already know it. For races with multiple racial languages, you gain all of them.
Note that it specifically says you gain a racial trait.
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But there is no rule saying that you cannot replace it further nor is there anything that actually puts them into distinct states. I also think it makes sense to allow it. The idea of allowing half-orcs to take Skilled is that instead of inheriting an orcish trait (darkvision) they inherited a trait from there human parent. So why couldn't they inherit a different trait instead of Skilled since it is possible that their human parent did not possess the skilled trait to begin with?
Furthermore I do not get why you think it only applies to race traits and not racial traits. The FAQ ruling was clearly worded to include all rules elements.
There's also no rule stating that dead characters can't take actions, but I don't let the monk that took a great axe critical to the face a turn ago make a flurry of blows.
As a GM I would be inclined to allow it, but I don't think the rules support it as such. The human Skilled trait is not the same as the half-orc Skilled trait, even if they have the same name.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 - How do you know RAI? Did you ask the developer what they intended? You are ignoring that the list in the FAQ is non-exhaustive, specifically see how the list ends with "and so on" and then ends with "rules elements," which says that is it not only non--exhaustive, but all inclusive, referring to any
@Ms. Pleiades - Common sense would dictate that would be so in your case. But in the case of racial traits, you can't really argue common sense. In fact I would say that given genetic/environmental considerations of a character's upbringing common sense would support my case. What if my half-orc PC's mother was a human with the Heart of the Mountains trait and he grew up in her homeland. Why would it be possible to pick up Skilled, which is mother does not possess and her people do not possess, but could not take Heart of the Mountains which is a trait likely indicative of his home culture?
@Paladin of Baha-who? - Why would they not be the same if they have the same name? They have the same name and do exactly the same thing. That would be like saying a rogue's sneak attack feature is not the same as a Ninja's sneak attack feature.
Please keep discussing. Personally I would love some sort of official word on if this would work or not as I am looking for a ruling I can take into PFS as that is where I play Pathfinder.
You are extremely unlikely to recieve an official word.
I would not allow this. 'And so on' is not a strong enough precedent to swap racial traits, in my opinion. Some GMs may allow it, but more importantly if you are building a PFS character around it you shouldn't expect to get away with it at all tables. This makes it a pretty bad idea for a PFS character all up: anything with table variation means you are going to spend half your time unable to play the character, pragmatically speaking.
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If not "and so on", then how about "rules element"? That seems like an ALL inclusive term.
"You are extremely unlikely to receive an official word."
I don't know about that. It seems like topics that get a lot of talk seem to eventually get attention of someone from Paizo. Is there a place to ask for official rules clarification? It seems like there should be.
If not "and so on", then how about "rules element"? That seems like an ALL inclusive term.
"You are extremely unlikely to receive an official word."
I don't know about that. It seems like topics that get a lot of talk seem to eventually get attention of someone from Paizo. Is there a place to ask for official rules clarification? It seems like there should be.
Considering how much PFS has restricted racial heritages beyond what the FAQ says already, I think even if you did get a developer to come in this thread and say "Yep! Have at it, switch racial traits as you please!" PFS would 'house rule' it.
In fact, PFS already says that everything in the Advanced Race Guide is available to that specific RACE only which pretty much means that if you are looking for official word to take to a PFS table, there you have it. It's official word you cannot do what you are asking to do.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
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For a PFS character I always advise never to go with any sort of "iffy" interpretation for a couple reasons. First, in the absence of an official ruling, expect to have to argue your case with many GMs and deal with the resulting table variation. Second, you will have to be prepared to have your build clarified out of existence, potentially without the option of a rewrite.
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I'm actually not planning on using it in a build, but like you said, table variation can't really be allowed for character creation rules in a shared world campaign like PFS.
In this case, I think AbsolutGrndZer0's additional resources quote is a pretty clear citation against it for PFS.
I still wonder about the rule in general even though it would likely never come up for me.
I'm actually not planning on using it in a build, but like you said, table variation can't really be allowed for character creation rules in a shared world campaign like PFS.
In this case, I think AbsolutGrndZer0's additional resources quote is a pretty clear citation against it for PFS.
I still wonder about the rule in general even though it would likely never come up for me.
Well, even then I am fairly sure I can stand by the claim that if a developer were to see this as a potential FAQ question, they would mark it "No staff response needed" as I've seen them do with stuff that is a lot less clear.
As bonus though, I will tell you a 100% valid way to gain a racial trait from another race without having to lose one. Take Racial Heritage (Catfolk) then take Catfolk Exemplar. Catfolk Exemplar allows a catfolk to get a few of the alternate traits without having to give up anything. Seeing as how it specifically says for example if you choose sharp claws... "If you do not have the cat claws racial trait you gain the cat claws racial trait" You don't cause you are human... but you have Racial Heritage (Catfolk) so you totally can take the feat. :D Then take Aspect of the Beast (which it also qualifies for) and bump up your damage.
Of course, this isn't valid in PFS. But, I did it with a hunter in a home game. :)
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Alternate Racial Traits: This section lists alternate racial traits for each of the seven core races. Many of them play on racial themes not reflected in the standard racial traits, like the elven alternate racial trait fleet-footed, which grants the Run feat and a bonus on initiative checks instead of the normal keen senses and weapon familiarity traits, reflecting the grace and uncanny reflexes of that race. To take one of these alternate racial traits, you must exchange one or more of the existing standard racial traits available to the race. You can exchange one or several of the standard racial traits, but you cannot exchange the same racial trait more than once. For example, an elf who takes the fleet-footed racial trait cannot take the urbanite racial trait, because the latter trait also replaces keen senses.
The skileld racial trait is one of the standard racial trait for a half- orc? No, so you can't exchange it.