Where can I get a cheeseburger?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

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So obviously, depending on your group's personal preferences, your Golarion has everything from the typical ren-faire turkey legs and mead to Coca-Cola and Twinkies.

But what types of food could we reasonably expect to find in what parts of Golarion? Smell is a powerful memory key, and describing the unique smells PCs detect (other than manure) when traveling the planes can help set the mood.

Some likely probabilities to get us started:
Most of the Crown of the World probably serves burnt meat on a skewer.
Sushi's probably popular in Tian-Xia.
Hummus in Casmaron.
Lembas bread in Kyonin.
Tea and crumpets in Taldor.
Snails in Galt.
BBQ in Bloodcove.
Ortolan bunting in Cheliax (hopefully, none of your players actually have these memories).

But where would I get tacos, pizza and the eponymous cheeseburger? I mean, if they're offered anywhere on Golarion I can probably also get them in Absalom (and other major cities, but as a Pathfinder Agent, I'm biased). But what cultures would spawn them? The 4th Earl of Sandwich wasn't even born until 1718 A.D.; are we even allowed to say "the greatest thing since sliced bread" yet? Earth mythology credits his gambling habit as the impetus behind it; what country is infamous for their gambling? Maize is sorta required for Mesoamerican cuisine; anywhere on Golarion famous for growing it? Can you even have pizza without deep-dish Chicago-style vs. New York-style thin-crust (Magnimar & Korvosa)?

(Probably) unrelated to Pathfinder Foods. And the Internet claims those ren-faire "turkey" legs are really emu.


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I once had an idea that Fried foods come from Cheliax, and was brought to the rest of the inner sea by escaped slaves and immigrants.

Another idea I had is that clerics of Cayden Calliean came up with various types of Bar food to serve in their temples (Of course, in my interpretation, any given temple of Cayden Calliean is like a cross between Hooters and Applebees).


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Daneel wrote:


But where would I get tacos, pizza and the eponymous cheeseburger? I mean, if they're offered anywhere on Golarion I can probably also get them in Absalom (and other major cities, but as a Pathfinder Agent, I'm biased). But what cultures would spawn them? The 4th Earl of Sandwich wasn't even born until 1718 A.D.; are we even allowed to say "the greatest thing since sliced bread" yet? Earth mythology credits his gambling habit as the impetus behind it; what country is infamous for their gambling? Maize is sorta required for Mesoamerican cuisine; anywhere on Golarion famous for growing it? Can you even have pizza without deep-dish Chicago-style vs. New York-style thin-crust (Magnimar & Korvosa)?

I tend to assume that Golarion foods are different from Earth foods, and so there's no direct analogue, but there might be plenty of similarities. E.g., I think every society on earth has (independently?) developed the idea of meat-wrapped-in-starch, whether that be a char siu bao, a burrito, an o-nigiri, or a samosa. Similarly, I'm sure Cheliax has a meat-filled-starch dish, and I have no issue with calling it a "dumpling" in game, even though it might be made with a flour I don't recognize and spiced with something unusual. (Fish dumplings in quinoa flour spiced with cinnamon? Certainly distinctive....)

Tacos are simply meat-wrapped-in-bread, and the Tex-Mex tacos you're familiar with are basically what happens when rich Americans take over peasant food and add too many ingredients. Ditto for pizza (which started out in Naples, basically, as cheese toast and then American soldiers decided to add more stuff to it.) And, for that matter, ditto for the hamburger/cheeseburger.

So for all three, the answer is "the America analogue -- Andoran."

More generally, you'd be looking for a fairly cosmopolitan and multicultural culture with a fair amount of openness to "foreign" influences (to be willing to accept foreign food in the first place). You'd also be looking at a country with abundant wealth (to afford lots of different kinds of food to experiment with) and abundant resources (to be able to grow all sorts of stuff). So, yeah, it's sounding to me like Andoran is a good spot.


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According to Internet memes, Cheeseburgers would come from the Catfolk homeland.

Grand Lodge

Orfamay Quest wrote:

.So for all three, the answer is "the America analogue -- Andoran."

More generally, you'd be looking for a fairly cosmopolitan and multicultural culture with a fair amount of openness to "foreign" influences (to be willing to...

Hmm... sounds about right.

Andoran is a culturally more like colonial-USA; the food excesses are more post-WW2-USA. The working class wields more power/money, but is still racist.

I hate to say it, but that sounds more like Cheliax or Varasia than Andoran.


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If you're ever in Absalom, stop by Ed Friendly's Tavern just under Main Street downtown. It's run by the Sewer Dragons kobold tribe and makes the best ratburgers this side of Casmaron.

And if you use the privy, let me know what the secret is to the three seashells.

Silver Crusade

Well there would be Pizza (but not modern pizza), on earth it's been around since at least 900

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Tacos are street food, so to make something we'd recognize as a taco, we're looking for somewhere in Golarion that has access to corn as a staple crop. Fillings can be just about anything, but a corn-based exterior - whether fried crisp or simply warmed - is the key component. Tracking that in Pathfinderwiki led me to Valeros' bio, which states he left Andoran seeking "a larger life than cattle and corn." I'm still not sure that Andoran is the right place - corn is probably used there as a feed for animals, and probably isn't the corn we're used to. Still, it does reinforce the stereotype that "Andoran = America," since they're using the American term for the crop, rather than the more global "maize."

Burgers, though, could come from anywhere that cows are plentiful, and I don't think that really narrows any one place down as the birthplace of McGolarions. Again, Andoran is possible, since Valeros' backstory mentions cattle, but ground meat was hardly a new invention. The British were using it in pies a hundred years before the first burger came around, after all, and a British connection would lead me to suggest Cheliax as a contender. But the cottage pie lead to the Salisbury steak which led to the burger, the latter two of which were American inventions - and again, Andoran = America.

Pizza, though, I'd argue is from Cheliax. Their writeup in Council of Thieves suggests a very Italian Renaissance feel to their section of the world, so I'd guess pizza would come from there. It'd be peasant food, as flatbreads tend not to be served to lords and ladies, and would be much like Orfamay suggested would be closer to cheese toasts than Domino's, but I figure you'd find it there.


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Misroi wrote:
Tacos are street food, so to make something we'd recognize as a taco, we're looking for somewhere in Golarion that has access to corn as a staple crop. Fillings can be just about anything, but a corn-based exterior - whether fried crisp or simply warmed - is the key component. Tracking that in Pathfinderwiki led me to Valeros' bio, which states he left Andoran seeking "a larger life than cattle and corn." I'm still not sure that Andoran is the right place - corn is probably used there as a feed for animals, and probably isn't the corn we're used to. Still, it does reinforce the stereotype that "Andoran = America," since they're using the American term for the crop, rather than the more global "maize."

Alternatively, Valeros is using the word "corn" in its English sense (which predates even the discovery of "maize" by several hundred years) -- any grain.

E.g., from Piers Ploughman (c. 1380 CE):

A busshel of bred corn
Brynge me therinne;
For I wol sowe it myself,
And sithenes wol I wende
To pilgrymage, as palmeres doon,
Pardon for to have.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Well there would be Pizza (but not modern pizza), on earth it's been around since at least 900

Depends on what the OP means by "pizza," of course. If we were somehow able to transport him to 900 CE Italy and put a pizza in front of him, I doubt he would recognize it as a pizza.... and if it's not clear that he'd be able to pick the Neopolitan flatbread-covered-with-cheese from the Parisian flatbread-covered-in-cheese or the Swiss flatbread-covered-with-cheese. (Excuse me, the Lucerne flatbread since Switzerland didn't exist yet, IIRC.)

Contributor

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I always thought the RenFaire turkey leg thing came from a misapprehension of that famous painting of Henry VIII in which he's actually holding a lambchop. Henry died in 1547, and I would be astonished to learn that turkeys were widely eaten in Europe by that point.

Anyway, the interesting thing here, of course, is that Golarion isn't analogous to Earth in terms of its cultural sophistication/place in history/technology level. Civilization has been around for much longer there than here, and so the trappings of civilization, such as the relatively sophisticated cuisines that develop in societies operating above subsistence levels, have had a lot longer to develop. I'd say you can make a creditable argument for the presence there of just about any Earth dish you can imagine. Absalom has been around as a seaport astride international shipping lanes for literally thousands of years. Surely you can get a cheeseburger there.


Stew is no doubt everywhere, throw stuff into a pot, add water and boil until edible. Gruel, porridge, bread that has no doubt some sawdust and stuff other than flour makes up peasant food..

If we go by the faux-medevil fantasy world where streets are mysteriously free of dung and other nasties, then more modernish stuff can appear. I do doubt one can get the equivalent of a street vender hot dog.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pillbug Toenibbler wrote:

If you're ever in Absalom, stop by Ed Friendly's Tavern just under Main Street downtown. It's run by the Sewer Dragons kobold tribe and makes the best ratburgers this side of Casmaron.

And if you use the privy, let me know what the secret is to the three seashells.

Keep in mind when he says "ratburgers" he's not being figurative.

Silver Crusade

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Well there would be Pizza (but not modern pizza), on earth it's been around since at least 900
Depends on what the OP means by "pizza," of course. If we were somehow able to transport him to 900 CE Italy and put a pizza in front of him, I doubt he would recognize it as a pizza.... and if it's not clear that he'd be able to pick the Neopolitan flatbread-covered-with-cheese from the Parisian flatbread-covered-in-cheese or the Swiss flatbread-covered-with-cheese. (Excuse me, the Lucerne flatbread since Switzerland didn't exist yet, IIRC.)

*twitch*

I know I shouldn't be irritated. But I am when people assume I'm a male. I'm not.


Dot.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:


Depends on what the OP means by "pizza," of course. If we were somehow able to transport him to 900 CE Italy and put a pizza in front of him, I doubt he would recognize it as a pizza.... and if it's not clear that he'd be able to pick the Neopolitan flatbread-covered-with-cheese from the Parisian flatbread-covered-in-cheese or the Swiss flatbread-covered-with-cheese. (Excuse me, the Lucerne flatbread since Switzerland didn't exist yet, IIRC.)
I know I shouldn't be irritated. But I am when people assume I'm a male. I'm not.

My apologies. But it's hard to judge the gender of a large snow leopard, and, more to the point, "the OP" isn't you, but Daneel, who does seem to be wearing a male avatar.


Another factor to consider: Golarion has had contact in the past with not only Earth (granted a 1918 version Earth but Earth all the same), but other planes of existences and planets.

I don't think its so far fetched to consider that some powerful wizard such as Nex or even Aroden could have visited Earth or another Earth like world at some point and maybe brought back some foreign cuisine.

Grand Lodge

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The Romans had hamburgers.

In Golarion, the Taldan Empire is an analogue of the Roman Empire.

All the places which speak Common,(ie Taldane), could have similar cuisine to ancient Romans.

Grand Lodge

Orfamay Quest wrote:
My apologies. But it's hard to judge the gender of a large snow leopard, and, more to the point, "the OP" isn't you, but Daneel, who does seem to be wearing a male avatar.

Funny story: despite the fact that I am male and also assumed my avatar looks male, I ran The Wounded Wisp yesterday using RPTools MapTool and used this avatar picture for the female Cleric of Pharasma's Token. I justified it as saying the avatar simply appears more masculine - it doesn't actually have any "male-only" features, like facial hair.


Ortolan bunting in Cheliax (hopefully, none of your players actually have these memories).

ARGH!

What a strange one... I had never heard of it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Phosphorus wrote:

The Romans had hamburgers.

In Golarion, the Taldan Empire is an analogue of the Roman Empire.

All the places which speak Common,(ie Taldane), could have similar cuisine to ancient Romans.

Interesting. Not quite a burger as we'd recognize it today, but it's definitely an ancestor. The meat was probably not beef, but lamb, goat or chicken. I appreciate the use of Liquamen, a stand-in for the Roman ketchup, garum. For those not in the know, that's a liquid made from fermented fish guts, and was put on just about everything in those days. I'd actually think Worcestershire sauce would be an acceptable modern equivalent, given its fishy notes. Now, what are pine kernels? Berries? Would that give it a taste like gin?

Orfamay Quest wrote:


Alternatively, Valeros is using the word "corn" in its English sense (which predates even the discovery of "maize" by several hundred years) -- any grain.

E.g., from Piers Ploughman (c. 1380 CE):

A busshel of bred corn
Brynge me therinne;
For I wol sowe it myself,
And sithenes wol I wende
To pilgrymage, as palmeres doon,
Pardon for to have.

Hmmmm, another wrinkle added to the puzzle. You're absolutely right, Valeros would probably refer to whatever crop he and his family grew on the farm as "corn." But did Valeros write his own background? Do we take that as written by the iconic, or by the real world writer (who is most likely American, and therefore uses "corn" to mean "that crop that most of the rest of the world calls maize")?


Misroi wrote:
Now, what are pine kernels? Berries? Would that give it a taste like gin?

I assume that pine kernels are pine nuts, pignoli, or piñon nuts (which are the same thing depending on where you are). They taste,... well, nutty, not pine-y.

They're a common ingredient in pesto, and also common in southwestern (read: Mexican) cooking.


I imagine that any culture that commonly eats bread and meat, of any sort, will lead to the making of sandwiches or wraps, as a means of making food more transportable and less messy.

Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Dark Archive

Daneel wrote:
Ortolan bunting in Cheliax

Ok, I'm going to have to remember that when my PCs dine with a decadent villain.


revaar wrote:
I imagine that any culture that commonly eats bread and meat, of any sort, will lead to the making of sandwiches or wraps, as a means of making food more transportable and less messy.

The problem with this "imagining" is that it's demonstrably untrue, in the medium term.

The invention of the "sandwich" is well-documented (17th-18th century) Standard medieval fare included a "trencher" (a slice of bread under meat -- to bulk out the meal, to sop up juices, and to act as a sort of plate -- but dishes like the Dutch belegde brodje, which is basically an open-faced sandwich, were unfamiliar enough to the English that they needed to be explained by travellers to the the Netherlands.

Similarly, the hot dog bun is fairly reliably dated to the 1904 World's Fair.

Of course, the English had been eating pies for centuries. But it's surprising how obvious-in-retrospect inventions seem to take forever. Wheels on luggage date to 1970. (The rollaboard to 1987.) Popsicles date to 1905. The ice cream cone (ice cream in an edible dish) also dates to 1904, at the same World's Fair that gave us the hot dog bun.

Goodness, pre-sliced bread dates to 1928. So when they say "the greatest invention since sliced bread," they're really only talking about an eighty year period.


revaar wrote:


Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Magic may have influenced extremely haute cuisine but is unlikely to have any effect below that due to cost.

Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.

Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....

Silver Crusade

Orfamay Quest wrote:
revaar wrote:


Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Magic may have influenced extremely haute cuisine but is unlikely to have any effect below that due to cost.

Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.

Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....

Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.

Dark Archive

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
revaar wrote:


Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Magic may have influenced extremely haute cuisine but is unlikely to have any effect below that due to cost.

Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.

Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....

Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.

If we want to go down this path then the best bet is probably an automatically resetting magical device trap that casts gentle repose on a single square. This will keep the most meat preserved since it isn't space limited like a cupboard would be. This will keep any meat that passes through it fresh for at least three days at a cost of 3,000 gp. For ever additional 500 gp invested buys you another day up to 20 days at 20,000 gold (but good luck finding a level 20 cleric). I guess it could be useful in some sort of centralized food storage facility for a major city (just rotate the food every 3 days) but honestly salt packing seems cheaper and easier.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....
Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.

The bag of corpse ferrying costs 2000 gp, roughly $200,000 (US). That's roughly 50-100 times what a commercial refrigerator for a restaurant costs in the real world.

I'm afraid I don't see it as being a worthwhile investment. Heck, I could start up a franchised fast-food restaurant like Subway --- in its entirety -- for that kind of money.

Silver Crusade

BlackOuroboros wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
revaar wrote:


Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Magic may have influenced extremely haute cuisine but is unlikely to have any effect below that due to cost.

Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.

Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....

Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.
If we want to go down this path then the best bet is probably an automatically resetting magical device trap that casts gentle repose on a single square. This will keep the most meat preserved since it isn't space limited like a cupboard would be. This will keep any meat that passes through it fresh for at least three days at a cost of 3,000 gp. For ever additional 500 gp invested buys you another day up to 20 days at 20,000 gold (but good luck finding a level 20 cleric). I guess it could be useful in some sort of centralized food storage facility for a major city (just rotate the...

the bag costs 4000 to buy, and is permanent. I'm sure that a walk in closet wouldn't run past 20,000 GP for a multilifetime investment. (Business are often passed down from parent to child). Likely not something the local eatery could afford. But still something that is likely seen in a noble's kitchen.

According to RaW, making a large closet shouldn't cost any more to enchant than a bag.

Silver Crusade

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....
Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.

The bag of corpse ferrying costs 2000 gp, roughly $200,000 (US). That's roughly 50-100 times what a commercial refrigerator for a restaurant costs in the real world.

I'm afraid I don't see it as being a worthwhile investment. Heck, I could start up a franchised fast-food restaurant like Subway --- in its entirety -- for that kind of money.

Though this would be way more reliable than a commercial freezer. It doesn't break down, need power, or have fluctuation in the preservation of meat. Likely not good for the man on the street, but cheaper than people were estimating.


A few things to keep in mind:

  • The Azlanti initiated the Columbian Exchange with Arcadia, thus you don't have to worry about the availability of various foods.
  • There is a lot of trade with Tian-Xia and Vudra, which includes cultural trade as well as goods and the like. I'm sure you could find sushi in Magnimar thanks to people from Minkai making their way across the Crown of the World to visit Varisia and then make a home there.
  • The cultures of the Inner Sea are incredibly old by Earth standards, and have had a lot of time for recipes to develop, and there's a lot less serfdom, meaning that there's enough mobility for people to find out there's better recipes in the next town over.
  • For a lot of human history, flavor has been a secondary concern far behind calories. That doesn't seem to be a problem in Golarion, which means you'd have long since given up pies with thick flavorless crusts in favor of pies with delicious flaky/buttery/etc crusts worth writing home about.

At any rate... I consider Taldor to be the most 'Italian' nation, and would expect to be able to find pizza there, as well as in places like southern Brevoy, which have heavy Taldan influence because of colonization. Similarly, I view Varisia as very English, so I'd expect to find deep-fried fish and 'chips', meat pies, etc.

Dark Archive

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....
Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.

The bag of corpse ferrying costs 2000 gp, roughly $200,000 (US). That's roughly 50-100 times what a commercial refrigerator for a restaurant costs in the real world.

I'm afraid I don't see it as being a worthwhile investment. Heck, I could start up a franchised fast-food restaurant like Subway --- in its entirety -- for that kind of money.

I thought part of the fun of being nouveau riche adventurer trash was wasting your money on things like a man portable dorm fridge cause "why not?"

Sovereign Court

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Finding a cheeseburger in a fantasy campaign setting?

There is only one place to go...

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McGuffin's. ;)

Dark Archive

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
revaar wrote:


Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Magic may have influenced extremely haute cuisine but is unlikely to have any effect below that due to cost.

Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.

Similarly, hiring a adept to work in your kitchen to flavor your food with prestidigitation for eight hours (eight castings) would cost $4000. The kind of restaurant that can pay a chef $4000/day is not exactly going to be serving food for the masses.....

Or have an item similar to a bag of corpse ferrying, but cast on a closet. I'm pretty sure that a caster who's also a carpenter could make a tidy sum selling these to people who can afford them. If you're in the food business, it's a worthwhile investment. Even better if you're a caster, and can cook do it yourself.
If we want to go down this path then the best bet is probably an automatically resetting magical device trap that casts gentle repose on a single square. This will keep the most meat preserved since it isn't space limited like a cupboard would be. This will keep any meat that passes through it fresh for at least three days at a cost of 3,000 gp. For ever additional 500 gp invested buys you another day up to 20 days at 20,000 gold (but good luck finding a level 20 cleric). I guess it could be useful in some sort of centralized food storage facility for
...

Sorry, I made a dog's lunch of the quote nesting but I'm on an IPad so I can't fix it :/

Anyways, the bag can only preserve one medium creatures worth of food at a time. Using the magical trap can preserve 14,400 medium sized creatures worth of food a day (for 3 days) if it is integrated into a slaughterhouse if one carcass is processed every round. Still not worth it but it can buy you some time.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.

Something seems really, really off about your conversion from GP to USD. That would price a bottle of absinthe at $3,000 and a pitcher of 'common wine' I could buy for €5 or less almost anywhere in Europe at $20. I think you're off by an order of magnitude and you should treat 1 SP as equivalent to a dollar, not 1 CP.

Silver Crusade

Mackenzie Kavanaugh wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.
Something seems really, really off about your conversion from GP to USD. That would price a bottle of absinthe at $3,000 and a pitcher of 'common wine' I could buy for €5 or less almost anywhere in Europe at $20. I think you're off by an order of magnitude and you should treat 1 SP as equivalent to a dollar, not 1 CP.

You have a good point. Which would put the "fridge" at a cost 4000 GP (maybe more for a larger one)


Orfamay Quest wrote:
revaar wrote:
I imagine that any culture that commonly eats bread and meat, of any sort, will lead to the making of sandwiches or wraps, as a means of making food more transportable and less messy.

The problem with this "imagining" is that it's demonstrably untrue, in the medium term.

The invention of the "sandwich" is well-documented (17th-18th century) Standard medieval fare included a "trencher" (a slice of bread under meat -- to bulk out the meal, to sop up juices, and to act as a sort of plate -- but dishes like the Dutch belegde brodje, which is basically an open-faced sandwich, were unfamiliar enough to the English that they needed to be explained by travellers to the the Netherlands.

Similarly, the hot dog bun is fairly reliably dated to the 1904 World's Fair.

Of course, the English had been eating pies for centuries. But it's surprising how obvious-in-retrospect inventions seem to take forever. Wheels on luggage date to 1970. (The rollaboard to 1987.) Popsicles date to 1905. The ice cream cone (ice cream in an edible dish) also dates to 1904, at the same World's Fair that gave us the hot dog bun.

Goodness, pre-sliced bread dates to 1928. So when they say "the greatest invention since sliced bread," they're really only talking about an eighty year period.

That historical information about when people stated putting things on bread actually sort of proves my point. Here on earth, we only have about 5515 years of recorded history(going back to the beginnings of Sumeria and Egypt, around 3500 BC). On Golarion, they have around 8185, with the current year being 4715 AR, and the age of Destiny (aka founding of Osirion) being in -3470 AR. That's a 2600 year of development that they have on us. While we've only had Hot Dog Buns for 100 or so year, they may have had them for 2100.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
revaar wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
revaar wrote:
I imagine that any culture that commonly eats bread and meat, of any sort, will lead to the making of sandwiches or wraps, as a means of making food more transportable and less messy.

The problem with this "imagining" is that it's demonstrably untrue, in the medium term.

The invention of the "sandwich" is well-documented (17th-18th century) Standard medieval fare included a "trencher" (a slice of bread under meat -- to bulk out the meal, to sop up juices, and to act as a sort of plate -- but dishes like the Dutch belegde brodje, which is basically an open-faced sandwich, were unfamiliar enough to the English that they needed to be explained by travellers to the the Netherlands.

Similarly, the hot dog bun is fairly reliably dated to the 1904 World's Fair.

Of course, the English had been eating pies for centuries. But it's surprising how obvious-in-retrospect inventions seem to take forever. Wheels on luggage date to 1970. (The rollaboard to 1987.) Popsicles date to 1905. The ice cream cone (ice cream in an edible dish) also dates to 1904, at the same World's Fair that gave us the hot dog bun.

Goodness, pre-sliced bread dates to 1928. So when they say "the greatest invention since sliced bread," they're really only talking about an eighty year period.

That historical information about when people stated putting things on bread actually sort of proves my point. Here on earth, we only have about 5515 years of recorded history(going back to the beginnings of Sumeria and Egypt, around 3500 BC). On Golarion, they have around 8185, with the current year being 4715 AR, and the age of Destiny (aka founding of Osirion) being in -3470 AR. That's a 2600 year of development that they have on us. While we've only had Hot Dog Buns for 100 or so year, they may have had them for 2100.

yeah but even with written history, there is so much we don't know in our own timeline. I am sure there have been enough natural disasters, invasions, undead plagues, etc in that interim (probably more, since magic), given many opportunities for valuable hot dog technology to be lost


revaar wrote:


That historical information about when people stated putting things on bread actually sort of proves my point. Here on earth, we only have about 5515 years of recorded history(going back to the beginnings of Sumeria and Egypt, around 3500 BC). On Golarion, they have around 8185, with the current year being 4715 AR, and the age of Destiny (aka founding of Osirion) being in -3470 AR. That's a 2600 year of development that they have on us. While we've only had Hot Dog Buns for 100 or so year, they may have had them for 2100.

Or they may not have them at all. There's no Grand Cosmic Schedule that says "hot dog buns should be invented about.... wait for it.... NOW!"


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Or they may not have them at all. There's no Grand Cosmic Schedule that says "hot dog buns should be invented about.... wait for it.... NOW!"

Then think of it this way: if there are hot dogs, then we can have CMOT Dibbler selling sausage inna bun at various events around Absalom!


We should have just asked Mona from the start. He's surely hidden at least a few White Castle franchises in strategic Golarion locations.

Whether you consider WC sliders as cheesburgers or not is another discussion. ;)


Pillbug Toenibbler wrote:

We should have just asked Mona from the start. He's surely hidden at least a few White Castle franchises in strategic Golarion locations.

Whether you consider WC sliders as cheesburgers or not is another discussion. ;)

Um, is Mona from out East? There's no White Castles anywhere on the West Coast. (Where Paizo is located.)

Silver Crusade

There's likely sausages, though not as finely ground as hot dogs, and likely better for you.


Mackenzie Kavanaugh wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ray of frost, as a 0th level spell, costs 5 gp to have cast for you. That's roughly $500 US in value. If you assume that it would keep food cold for an hour, we're still looking at $12,000 to keep your meat nice and cold for a day.
Something seems really, really off about your conversion from GP to USD. That would price a bottle of absinthe at $3,000 and a pitcher of 'common wine' I could buy for €5 or less almost anywhere in Europe at $20. I think you're off by an order of magnitude and you should treat 1 SP as equivalent to a dollar, not 1 CP.

Skilled artisan earns about 7 gp per week or average of 1 gp per day.

Unskilled workers are living at meager 1 sp per day, fitting lack of minimum wage laws in fantasy worlds.

Grand Lodge

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zylphryx wrote:

Finding a cheeseburger in a fantasy campaign setting?

There is only one place to go...

McGuffin's. ;)

Dadadadadaaaaa... I'm looting it.

Mackenzie Kavanaugh wrote:
For a lot of human history, flavor has been a secondary concern far behind calories. That doesn't seem to be a problem in Golarion, which means you'd have long since given up pies with thick flavorless crusts in favor of pies with delicious flaky/buttery/etc crusts worth writing home about.

Indeed, in Golarion the main problem is becoming the calories for an otyugh or a ghoul.

Grand Lodge

revaar wrote:
Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?

Does that mean Alkenstarian food is more, or less tastier, than your typical Golarion fare?

Grand Lodge

BlackOuroboros wrote:
Ok, I'm going to have to remember that when my PCs dine with a decadent villain.

Nearly every episode of Hannibal has the titular villain prepare something delicious - of course with "long pig" as an ingredient about half the time. There are long discussions of some of the rarer (non-human) ingredients and preparation methods: a scene like the Ortolan bunting clip is typical to every episode.

In other words, if you want food for your decadent villain to serve/eat, try watching a few episodes.

Pro Tip: each episode has a type of food for the title, generally what's prepared/eaten in that episode.


Daneel wrote:
revaar wrote:
Something else to consider: How has magic effected the development of cuisine? Even a 0-level cantrip can flavor foods and drinks. Are spices as important in places where magic is more common? How does access to magical fire and cold effect cooking? Does meat taste better cooked over a magically influenced fire? Is refrigeration and transport of food an issue with access to ray of frost?
Does that mean Alkenstarian food is more, or less tastier, than your typical Golarion fare?

Less, I suspect. Less because of the lack of magic, and more because the Mana Wastes are described as, well, wasteland. Not a lot of good crops, which means we're looking at classic "starvation cuisine" where you eat what's available or starve. ("Scorpions! Yum!")

Dark Archive

Daneel wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
Ok, I'm going to have to remember that when my PCs dine with a decadent villain.

Nearly every episode of Hannibal has the titular villain prepare something delicious - of course with "long pig" as an ingredient about half the time. There are long discussions of some of the rarer (non-human) ingredients and preparation methods: a scene like the Ortolan bunting clip is typical to every episode.

In other words, if you want food for your decadent villain to serve/eat, try watching a few episodes.

Pro Tip: each episode has a type of food for the title, generally what's prepared/eaten in that episode.

Actually, I did and it's pretty awesome. My wife and I are huge fans of Silence of the Lambs and it's sequels so we were both excited to discover there was a Hannibal TV series (we barely watch TV so we didn't know about it). So, thanks you for the recommendation!

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