Goblin Squad Member
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With the state of WoT as it is right now with the attackers gaining points for anyone in the tower no mater how many defenders are their it is impossible to defend a tower against any sort of determined attack.
A group of naked attackers (suffering no gear durability penalty) can slowly but surly take any tower unless the defenders out number then enough to kill them as they run at them.
Tonight an out numbered force of Golgothans took a tower we really had no business winning simply by grinding our faces against the defenders and sticking it out until we hit 1000 points. We kept fighting but we could have just run in circles healing ourselves till we died and won all the same.
Once a tower comes under attack by a force from another settlement the defending company should make points just the same as any attacking companies. Kick out most of a team they make points more slowly, first to 1000 wins the tower (locks it up) that day.
When people are doing nothing but running in circles, your solution is an excellent method of seeing which side brought the most headless chickens.
It still isn't a tactic I want to spend the next 10 years perpetrating.
(Yes, I have already budgeted $1,800 per account between now and 2025. And don't even ask how many accounts I plan to have.)
A tactic for defeating this problem could be for the entire defending force to exit the capture zone simultaneously, line up behind mages, and then have the mages launch a mass AoE or cone of effect burst spell at whoever remains inside the tower capture zone (obviously the enemy).
The burst damage, if high enough, could kill people before they can heal their way out of it.
Once they are all dead, move back inside the capture zone to defend.
Thorgrim pointed out on another thread that one piece that has yet to be implemented in all of this is gradually slower respawn times with each death during a tower fight. This would change the dynamic a bit, but not totally solve the problem.
A tactic for defeating this problem could be for the entire defending force to exit the capture zone simultaneously, line up behind mages, and then have the mages launch a mass AoE or cone of effect burst spell at whoever remains inside the tower capture zone (obviously the enemy).
The burst damage, if high enough, could kill people before they can heal their way out of it.
Once they are all dead, move back inside the capture zone to defend.
That is an idea. One problem is that the targets are constantly moving and no AoEs cover the whole tower area.
Well, if the defending force has lots of longbows, have everybody exit suddenly and simultaneously, and then fire longbow exploit and halfdraw with slotted interrupt reactives at all the attackers running around inside.
- No line of sight needed (for now)
- long range
- bonus damage on people trying to run around for defensiveness, because of triggered "opportunity"
- interrupt will prevent healing
Thorgrim pointed out on another thread that one piece that has yet to be implemented in all of this is gradually slower respawn times with each death during a tower fight. This would change the dynamic a bit, but not totally solve the problem.
Largely because targeting is so difficult to do properly and it takes too much time, you die when you stop to target people because a few people can target you. Maybe 3 people out of 12 can lock you while you try to lock someone. Almost no one could target me running.
Once I gave up targeting the defenders and just ran in circles I was hardly dying at all, so lengthening respawn only makes the headless chicken strategy STRONGER.
I think this is all mainly a learn-to-play kind of scenario.
In Alpha, I didn't have to deal with it because I was one of the ones doing the capping or using the silly tactics.
If you're using voice chat, which you should, then coordinate mass movements that occur suddenly. You can instantly expose who is the enemy because they didn't react with the group. Then you can just target anybody in the kill zone with impunity.
Additionally, if they are people running around for defensiveness, the defender should be using attacks that exploit off of opportunity, and if they runner doesn't stop running they will be dead in 3-4 hits. If they do stop running, then more people can target them more easily.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This may be a good point to look at the World of Warcraft tower capture mechanics. Their PvP Battlegrounds may be themepark in format, but they do have some good mechanics therein. Either through Most at Tower gets points, or Capture and Hold Control points through interactive interruptible objects in the world. It may be too late now, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've pointed this out a few times, it's not a great system, and is very exploitable. It is purely a numbers game, but that's how "control" type fights work. (except in Destiny, where the TDM component seems to have a bigger impact over control points)
Taking a tower/POI/Settlement should be a multi step attack, with objectives based on the configuration of the target (not so much towers). It needs to be something that takes long enough that a response is possible, but still be not so taxing that it is impossible with a defending force. Though the defenders should get an advantage
IMO capture points is a horrible system for any sustainable gameplay. The key to keep people coming back is objective based play. I use this example a lot (pretty much for every game I beta), mostly because no game has come close since, but Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory is the most enjoyable FPS I have played. There was no TDM, no CTF, no Control, every map had a series of objectives. I played that game 30-40 hours a week for 3 years(95% of the time on 8 maps). To compare, COD games held my attention for a month or two (which is really how long they expect most people to play their games, thus there is a new one every year). I know why the objective model isn't used anymore, they fps community is less refined now and just wants to mindlessly kill people, Splash Damage and ID tried doing the ET style with Quake Wars and Brink, but they were flops. But I think the sandbox MMO community, especially this community, would appreciate more of a thought-driven, strategy based battle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they would just remove all shrines from the Tower Hexes it would fix quite a bit of this.
Having to move 1 Hex takes a lot longer than half a hex (really less than half).
EDIT: If they limit it to a max of 6 people gaining points, it would remove zerg point gathering.
Also, I do like the idea of there being something else involved, like perhaps having to kill Guards before you can start gaining points.
IF we are going to have War of Towers for 4-6 months, I think they need to add a bit more to them.
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Additionally, if they are people running around for defensiveness, the defender should be using attacks that exploit off of opportunity, and if they runner doesn't stop running they will be dead in 3-4 hits. If they do stop running, then more people can target them more easily.
Yeah, I thought I'd be able to exploit opportunity on others, but that only works after acquiring a TARGET.
It turns out being UNTARGETED is better than staying still.
If they would just remove all shrines from the Tower Hexes it would fix quite a bit of this.
Having to move 1 Hex takes a lot longer than half a hex (really less than half).
Once I stopped wasting time and standing still targeting defenders, the defenders ability to send me to that shrine dropped immensely.
I think I got a good 5 minutes of tower points at a time once I stopped fighting and started running in circles.
Your suggestion might help all defenders, but the headless chicken tactic is still the optimal offensive tactic in that scenario because it keeps you from being sent to the shrine.
And frankly I don't want to role play a headless chicken for the next 10 years. ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they would just remove all shrines from the Tower Hexes it would fix quite a bit of this.
Having to move 1 Hex takes a lot longer than half a hex (really less than half).
Once I stopped wasting time and standing still targeting defenders, the defenders ability to send me to that shrine dropped immensely.
I think I got a good 5 minutes of tower points at a time once I stopped fighting and started running in circles.
Your suggestion might help all defenders, but the headless chicken tactic is still the optimal offensive tactic in that scenario because it keeps you from being sent to the shrine.
And frankly I don't want to role play a headless chicken for the next 10 years. ;-)
The War of Towers is intended to be temporary. The towers should be long gone in two years, much less ten.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The points do go down with another force within, but in my opinion whoever has the most living people within the tower should be the one gaining points.
Golgotha probably shouldn't have taken the tower we did last night as we were pretty outnumbered from what I could tell. Like Phyllain said we just repeatedly ran in from not far away when we died.
Then defense in depth. Have some people inside capping, and some people in a wider perimeter intercepting incoming attackers, and/or camping the respawn point until they give up.
The War of Towers is intended to be temporary. The towers should be long gone in two years, much less ten.
True, let's just hope there are different game mechanics for the Points Of Interest that replace the towers.
Even 3 months of running in circles is going to get old. :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The War of Towers is intended to be temporary. The towers should be long gone in two years, much less ten.
People keep forgetting this, despite the number of times it's been repeated.
The war of towers has been inserted to give Early Adopters something to do until the real systems are in place. Whether it will keep most of us from failing due to boredom in the next 6-12 months is the only thing that matters about the WoT.
Even 3 months of running in circles is going to get old. :-)
I doubt that will happen. Eventually tactics will catch up. Like I said, above personally, I would have just taken people to the respawn shrines and camped you to death till you got tired of ruining your gear.
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If you can't target me at a tower, you can't send me to a shrine.
And what makes you think you can target me at a shrine, unless there's too much vulnerability before I can run? And if so, graveyard camping becomes the emergent tactic, and isn't THAT great fun?
By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative towards the people whose ideas I seem to be dismissing. I'm just pointing out how things feel as someone who both attacked and defended a tower last night. In neither case did I feel that defenders stood a chance.
There are 2 dozen others who experienced the same battles and as more of them wake and post we'll hear more opinions and experiences.
I'm hoping that this thread results in us crowdforging the FUN into PvP and crowdforging the SILLY out of PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they would just remove all shrines from the Tower Hexes it would fix quite a bit of this.
Having to move 1 Hex takes a lot longer than half a hex (really less than half).
Once I stopped wasting time and standing still targeting defenders, the defenders ability to send me to that shrine dropped immensely.
I think I got a good 5 minutes of tower points at a time once I stopped fighting and started running in circles.
Your suggestion might help all defenders, but the headless chicken tactic is still the optimal offensive tactic in that scenario because it keeps you from being sent to the shrine.
And frankly I don't want to role play a headless chicken for the next 10 years. ;-)
The solution to that is to only grant points if you are stationary. ^_^
If you can't target me at a tower, you can't send me to a shrine.
Have defenders exit tower in mass. Press tab to target enemy attacker inside tower. Nuke them.
And what makes you think you can target me at a shrine, unless there's too much vulnerability before I can run?
Press tab.
And if so, graveyard camping becomes the emergent tactic, and isn't THAT great fun?
Respawn camping is just a tool to encourage people to change their behavior and go somewhere else.
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In any game that has control points and spawn points near by, respawn camping must and will occur.
If you can't target me at a tower, you can't send me to a shrine.Have defenders exit tower in mass. Press tab to target enemy attacker inside tower. Nuke them.
Or my personal favorite, don't let them get in the tower in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The solution to that is to only grant points if you are stationary. ^_^
Oooh... that's a good idea, and it sounds easy to implement for a simple fix coding wise.
I'm sure someone can point out some new problems with it, but I like this idea.
Edit: first problem I thought of, it makes capping undefended towers even more boring.
Respawn camping is griefing. Since they can't leave (you're camping them and they can't choose their respawn point), they're just constantly losing durability on their items until you decide to let them go.
Slated to be added soon (via Ryan Dancey info) is the ability to choose respawn point upon death, either nearest shrine or nearest town.
The solution to that is to only grant points if you are stationary. ^_^If they would just remove all shrines from the Tower Hexes it would fix quite a bit of this.
Having to move 1 Hex takes a lot longer than half a hex (really less than half).
Once I stopped wasting time and standing still targeting defenders, the defenders ability to send me to that shrine dropped immensely.
I think I got a good 5 minutes of tower points at a time once I stopped fighting and started running in circles.
Your suggestion might help all defenders, but the headless chicken tactic is still the optimal offensive tactic in that scenario because it keeps you from being sent to the shrine.
And frankly I don't want to role play a headless chicken for the next 10 years. ;-)
I'm having difficulty finding a flaw with that solution.
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Until that is the case, it's definitely griefing material.
Unfortunately, that's what happens when people resort to cheeseball tactics. It causes the other side to resort to even worse tactics. It's kind of a self-reinforcing downward spiral.
Press tab.
If it were that easy, it should have worked at the tower?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you can't target me at a tower, you can't send me to a shrine.Have defenders exit tower in mass. Press tab to target enemy attacker inside tower. Nuke them.
And what makes you think you can target me at a shrine, unless there's too much vulnerability before I can run?Press tab.
Tab only works on red-named targets. There were a great many times last night when the folks that really needed to die right now were white-named.
Can you do Burst to Self attack spells without targeting?
That might be the order of the day then.
Until that is the case, it's definitely griefing material.Unfortunately, that's what happens when people resort to cheeseball tactics. It causes the other side to resort to even worse tactics. It's kind of a self-reinforcing downward spiral.
Indeed. I WANTED to fight a normal battle, and started out fighting a normal battle, but was already frustrated with the game's targeting and lack of friend-or-foe visibility. When the defenders switched to our armor color it was the last straw for me.
I'm sure they'll state some justification for switching to our armor color, (just as I justified my move to a cheeseball tactic), but the end result is exactly as you described.
"a self-reinforcing downward spiral".
All I can say in my defense is I don't *want* to play that way and hope we can crowdforge solutions that won't penalize people for not being cheesy.
I think another tactical choice could have been crowd control, burst spells, cantrips. Anything that causes massive stacks of slow or knockdown. All of those effects would make it much easier to target people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Until that is the case, it's definitely griefing material.Unfortunately, that's what happens when people resort to cheeseball tactics. It causes the other side to resort to even worse tactics. It's kind of a self-reinforcing downward spiral.Indeed. I WANTED to fight a normal battle, and started out fighting a normal battle, but was already frustrated with the game's targeting and lack of friend-or-foe visibility. When the defenders switched to our armor color it was the last straw for me.
I'm sure they'll state some justification for switching to our armor color, (just as I justified my move to a cheeseball tactic), but the end result is exactly as you described.
"a self-reinforcing downward spiral".
In teamspeak, we were directed to change our color to red. Most of us did that. I wasn't paying attention enough to my own allies to notice if they didn't change their colors to red.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think another tactical choice could have been crowd control, burst spells, cantrips. Anything that causes massive stacks of slow or knockdown. All of those effects would make it much easier to target people.
You should be able to defend properly within the Tower without worry of EoA friendly fire. Towers should be like a siege, defenders within while enemies try to enter.
I think another tactical choice could have been crowd control, burst spells, cantrips. Anything that causes massive stacks of slow or knockdown. All of those effects would make it much easier to target people.
It should, and they tried, but way too often I recovered before enough of them could use that second or two to target me. Most of them don't know WHEN and WHERE the AOE stun will occur (though they COULD try and coordinate) or WHO will be the victim.
It might be another learn to play thing that we/they can improve on.
Or it might just not be effective enough.
I just can't say yet.
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We all just need that freeze spell that the goblin shamans have. These little @#%$@#% are effective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most of them don't know WHEN and WHERE the AOE stun will occur...
Yeah. Using AoEs on someone running around in circles inside the Tower is as likely to harm your allies as your enemies. The cast time is long enough that it's impossible to predict where your target will be, and who they'll be standing next to, when the damage and effects are applied.
There were adds to that fight that weren't part if any comms. I couldn't IFF them except by name and whether they were attacking known Golgothans.
Being known is definitely a disadvantage right now.
I imagine YOU suffered more than many of your mates for the same reason.
When I see YOUR name I don't have to think or even check on comms.
Yeah. Using AoEs on someone running around in circles inside the Tower is as likely to harm your allies as your enemies. The cast time is long enough that it's impossible to predict where your target will be, and who they'll be standing next to, when the damage and effects are applied.
That's why I was thinking mass exit tower, nuke it with one mage or something with crowd control, and have everybody outside the tower start targeting the slowed enemies inside the tower (besides your friendly mage).
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@Cheatle:
Word.