Ranged Disarm / Trip and shooting into combat


Rules Questions


Hello,

I wanted to verify something about the Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip feats. I am looking to use them in a home game and in Pathfinder Society.

I spoke with a Venture Captain and he could not give me a clear answer, but recommended I come here to verify my findings.

As the feats Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip state they are Ranged Combat Maneuvers. When used on a target that is in melee you do not factor in the penalties for shooting into combat, as that rule states it only applies to attack rolls, and you do not apply Cover, as that only applies to AC.

Does my reading of the rules appear correct in this manner?


I'm assuming these feats are from the new Ranged Tactics book?

I am not familiar with all the rules from it, but but I can say with certainty that combat maneuvers are attacks rolls. So whether its a ranged attack or ranged combat maneuver the penalties should apply.

Quote:

Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

As far as the cover issue applying to CMD

Quote:

Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

I would think that cover bonus to AC would fall under the circumstance bonus to AC, though the cover bonus to AC is not specifically typed as such.


I agree with Claxon. A CMB is a specific type of attack roll, and those penalties apply.

And just thinking about it - why would things that make it hard to hit someone, *not* make it hard to disarm them?


Correct, these are the feats from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox as I only know of them appearing in that piece of literature and being legal for Pathfinder Society usage.

Quote:

Ranged Disarm

Benefit(s): As a full-round action, you can attempt to perform a disarm combat maneuver with any ranged weapon at a –2 penalty. Add your Dexterity modifier to your CMB in place of your Strength modifier and apply range penalties to your combat maneuver check, doubling the penalties from range increments. If your target is more than 30 feet away, you take an additional –2 penalty. If the disarm attempt is successful, the target also takes damage as if you had made a successful attack with that weapon. You cannot be disarmed by failing this disarm attempt.

So then anything that would add to my attack roll, Precise Shot for this example, would then apply into my Combat Maneuver roll?

Quote:
Precise Shot: Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.

And to take this a step further, if one takes Improved Disarm and has Ranged Disarm, would they incur a attack of opportunity when making a disarm combat maneuver if done with in a threaten square with a ranged weapon or would the wording of the feat negate that attack of opportunity as it specifies directly that you avoid it?

Quote:
Improved Disarm: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to disarm you.

Grand Lodge

Yes, Precise Shot would negate the -4 penalty for firing into combat, but not the +4 AC for firing through cover.

And, indeed, Improved Disarm would negate the AoO from your target for attempting a Disarm maneuver, but it would not negate the AoO any enemy next to your PC would get for your making a ranged attack.

Now, if your PC had Point-Blank Master, that would negate the AoO for using a ranged weapon...

Note: For this answer, I am using the rules about spells that give a ranged attack as a result of casting the spell, since the rules for that are clear: Casting the spell provokes, unless done defensively, and making the ranged attack also provokes. (I believe it is in the FAQ, referencing Scorching Ray).


I agree with kinevon completely

For reference, this is the FAQ he is referring to

Quote:

Ranged Touch Attack Spells and AOOs: When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack (such as scorching ray), and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?

Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity: one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events.
(Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack. It still provokes for casting the spell.
This answer originally appeared in the 9/11/12 Paizo blog.

So, you would need both the Improved _____ feat for the combat maneuver and Point Blank Master feat to not provoke AoO for making a ranged combat maneuver.


Aaah that reference does clarify it nicely. Thank you both for the information.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Ranged Disarm / Trip and shooting into combat All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.