I'm starting a new gaming group with three players at their first pen-and-paper rpg experience plus two with 3.5 experience. I will be the GM.
Let me say that i greatly favor role-playing, rather than optimization, both as a GM and a player; I mean I don't care to go digging the books for the perfect combinations or to look at guides telling me what's best or what's not for a build. As long as it is mechanically decent, it's alright.
Yet, there is one of those three first-timers who made a number of choices I think might be quite suboptimal.
(Note that only Core Rulebook is allowed. PCs are 1st level.)
- Gnome Fighter: Gnome has +2 to Con, but also -2 to Str, and has little other that really helps in combat (and actually, only against a few subtypes of creatures). Also, 20 ft. speed.
- Weapon: greataxe (slightly lower average damage and less criticals compared to greatsword, or less defense compared to sword-and-shield).
- Feats: Dodge and Toughness. While they aren't terrible feats on their own (I think), they're not the best for that character. I tried to suggest him Power Attack and Weapon Focus (especially since he has Str 15 with racial modifier applied, so he'll better use anything he can to improve hit-rate and damage), but he kept his ground.
To tell it all, initially he had picked different feats; I can't remember which ones, now, but I clearly saw he was trying to build a videogame tank. So I said openly that in true rpgs there is no such thing as aggro, and enemies, who aren't just pre-programmed, won't keep attack him "just because yes", if they deem better to go on someone else. When I said that, he changed to what I listed above.
Anyway, I don't want to force him to make choices he doesn't like, but I also fear that his PC will be greatly outshined by the other better-built ones, so I was wondering if I can have any good advice from you folks.
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Drop him nice loot.
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Frankly not much you can do, just let him play and enjoy the game. To be quite honest at level 1, a greataxe damage is more than enough damage to take down most CR 1/2 to 1 enemies without much effort. But then again, I subscribe to the school of learning the hard way instead of holding your hand every step of the way.
If it's his first time I doubt he will care if he is the best or worst character. Guessing he is a Gnome for a reason, be it abilities or just cool factor too him. Great Axe vs Great Sword shouldn't matter too much, a point here or there in damage is a wash. Also for his feats, as a fighter he will have a ton of them anyway. I would say let him play and as a GM work with him, toss in a Masterworked Great Axe early on to give back that +1 to hit if you are worried. maybe a few cheap consumables for movement or something, if no one is optimized he should fit in just fine.
How long do you expect this story line to last?
Allow free retraining at like lv3 or 4, let's them fix things they notice are problems/fighters can do a lot of retraining anyways.
Let them make poor decisions, it's their first time. Let them try the character as they want, have the party work together to figure things out. If it's only going to be a few sessions long then it's no problem, if you're expecting a long game, allow the retraining, or let them make new PC's at a certain level, once they've gotten a feel for how the game works.
Edit: really, let him try it his way a few sessions or levels and then check if he has an issue and work to fix it then. who knows, maybe the party will be good at bottlenecking the enemies and this "tank" can do his job.
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1) Gnome Race: Yes, this is a pretty bad race choice, but this is the one part of the character i would try to let him keep. Race choice imparts too much flavor to the character to force a change.
2) Greataxe Weapon: This is fine. He picked a top 10% weapon, and a two-hander to boot. Don't nit-pick on this one.
3) Dodge Feat: This feat can be nice, though usually it's nice because it's useful while still being primarily for feat prereqs. Leave this one stand.
4) Toughness feat: This one is pretty weak, especially since he has dodge already. Try to get him to change this to weapon focus (greataxe).
As you can see, the only item I would push on again is the toughness feat. I don't know how tight of a game you run, but I would probably let him reduce one stat by 2 to increase his strength by 1. Additionally, as RumpinRufus stated, drop him some nice loot and it'll all wash out. This character isn't really that bad. I promise.
One thing I forgot to mention and that maybe was not remembered by someone else too, is that being Small size, the greataxe damage too is reduced (another reason why I made the "Power Attack" words sound again and again in his ears), but anyway, alright, I'll just go on and see where it brings.
Didn't you hear? Power Attack is a trap!
:)
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Let me say that i greatly favor role-playing, rather than optimization, both as a GM and a player;
*cough* Stormwind Fallacy *cough*
Picking suboptimal choices because you like those mechanics is still a purely mechanical decision. It does not make you a better roleplayer.
The dude is a gnome fighter. The only optimal route for that is to let him abuse magic item creation (he has SLAs and thus a CL). That being said, it is level one, these choices will not make or break his char.
Seriously, I agree with Rodinia. Show the player examples of opponents and friendly NPC's that effectively use builds that he can use as guides for future feat selections. Really play it up.
"The goblin king swings his greatsword with both hands, and his devastatingly powerful attack slices through the cleric's defenses!'
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Honestly, I think people underestimate small-size strength fighters. A gnome with a 15 strength and a small greataxe with 15 strength only does two less damage on average than a human with a 17 strength and a medium greataxe, with equal to-hit and +1 AC. I recently GM'd for a halfling barbarian. It was fine - great, actually! Really memorable character and very good at smashing things up.
Make sure he gets good loot and if he regrets his choice later, be generous about retraining but otherwise don't worry about it. Feel free to demonstrate better builds but don't be pushy about it if he's having fun as-is.
Unless there's a specific character you think will overshadow him? I might be concerned about the character feeling lacklustre if directly compared to a well-built melee barbarian or paladin, but even then I'd suggest seeing how it works in play.
Let me say that i greatly favor role-playing, rather than optimization, both as a GM and a player;*cough* Stormwind Fallacy *cough*
I didn't imply that the worst mechanical choices you make, the greater role-player you become. I said I want people to have the character they want (which favors role-play) and don't care about super-optimization, but I do care for too low optimization. Because it doesn't stay at the pace of the other (average at least) PCs and because forces me to be more careful in what I throw at the party and how.
Honestly, I think people underestimate small-size strength fighters.
To me, one of the worst features of that is the speed. I had an experience with a Dwarf Fighter who did nothing else in battle than just spending his rounds to move, and by the time he could attack, the enemies in his reach were dead and he had to move more, over and over...
It kind of traumatized me about low-speed combatants and I've always seen it as a huge drawback.Have you tried asking the player what they want to do with their character?
Point of that is that without experience he has no idea what route to take... nor that can be much different ones, probably.
You said it looked like he was trying to build a tank, someone who doesn't necessarily deal out a lot of damage but gets a lot of attention and can absorb a lot of hits, so help him build that.
How do you do that, mechanically? I mean, in videogames you have skills that you use on a monster, and it'll keep its attention on you no matter what, but here, unless you use magic or some other ability (that a Core Fighter doesn't have), nearly any monster will prefer to go on easier prey, rather than tough and well-armed characters.
Lots of comments to give the guy good loot. You can't do that, as the players decide distribution of gear, not the GM...unless you give out items that literally only that player can wield, in which case you're rewarding the player for...what again? You're pretty much punishing the other characters for being good at the game. Yeah, that seems fair.
I'm a little annoyed because I pretty much put this exact same question up about a month ago and got almost the same answers, and a lot of "tell the other players to choose less optimal optopns," and other punish those who know what they're doing responses.
Talk with the player, warn him it may be a bad idea, and if he's still running with it, let him ride. Its his guy, if he wants to be Captain Mediocrity, let him.
Honestly, I think people underestimate small-size strength fighters. A gnome with a 15 strength and a small greataxe with 15 strength only does two less damage on average than a human with a 17 strength and a medium greataxe, with equal to-hit and +1 AC. I recently GM'd for a halfling barbarian. It was fine - great, actually! Really memorable character and very good at smashing things up.
Make sure he gets good loot and if he regrets his choice later, be generous about retraining but otherwise don't worry about it. Feel free to demonstrate better builds but don't be pushy about it if he's having fun as-is.
Unless there's a specific character you think will overshadow him? I might be concerned about the character feeling lacklustre if directly compared to a well-built melee barbarian or paladin, but even then I'd suggest seeing how it works in play.
Plus, gnomes get a +2 to Constitution—an all-around great ability for a fighter.
The guy won't be dealing as much damage at first, but he'll notice fast that his to-hit needs improvement and he'll start putting feats in that. He gets a feat every level. He can spare a couple to help along his defense during the vulnerable levels—especially since fighters can retrain feats!
Not everything's about your DPR. Sometimes, it's about avoiding the enemy's DPR. :P
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Lots of comments to give the guy good loot. You can't do that, as the players decide distribution of gear, not the GM...unless you give out items that literally only that player can wield, in which case you're rewarding the player for...what again? You're pretty much punishing the other characters for being good at the game. Yeah, that seems fair.
If only one player is having mobility issues, and you drop a Boots of Striding and Springing, are the other players really going to try and yoink them?
And if you DO decide to drop a Gloves of Dueling, what you're rewarding the player for is bringing to the table the character he really wants to play, instead of letting optimizers tell him "no, a gnome fighter is no good, try again."
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To me, one of the worst features of that is the speed. I had an experience with a Dwarf Fighter who did nothing else in battle than just spending his rounds to move, and by the time he could attack, the enemies in his reach were dead and he had to move more, over and over...
It kind of traumatized me about low-speed combatants and I've always seen it as a huge drawback.
I can sympathize. I favour more lightly armoured characters myself, and in open spaces it sucks to only be able to charge 40ft when you need 60ft. However in many environments, including most inside or underground encounters, you'll rarely need to move more than 20ft in a turn after rolling initiative. Perhaps your bad experience with the dwarf was not just speed, but frustration with needing to move at all and therefore sacrifice full attacks?
You said it looked like he was trying to build a tank, someone who doesn't necessarily deal out a lot of damage but gets a lot of attention and can absorb a lot of hits, so help him build that.How do you do that, mechanically? I mean, in videogames you have skills that you use on a monster, and it'll keep its attention on you no matter what, but here, unless you use magic or some other ability (that a Core Fighter doesn't have), nearly any monster will prefer to go on easier prey, rather than tough and well-armed characters.
It's harder, but not impossible. If you can position yourself between the opponent and your teammates the former might try to go through you rather than around you. If they go around, you get an AoO or even better invest in the trip maneuver to stop them in their tracks. Bodyguard (combined with the Helpful trait and Benevolent Armour) and In Harm's Way or Archon Style through Archon Justice allow you to defend nearby allies or redirect attacks to yourself. The intimidate use of Antagonize also provides a way to "draw aggro."
The dude is a gnome fighter. The only optimal route for that is to let him abuse magic item creation (he has SLAs and thus a CL).
That's actually not a bad idea. Gnome crafters are thematic, and I can absolutely see a gnome fighter learning to enhance his own axe or armour.
EDIT:
Lots of comments to give the guy good loot. You can't do that, as the players decide distribution of gear, not the GM...unless you give out items that literally only that player can wield, in which case you're rewarding the player for...what again? You're pretty much punishing the other characters for being good at the game. Yeah, that seems fair.
Fairness doesn't mean everyone gets the same stuff. Also, where did the punishment come in? In my group, we don't play competitively, we play to have fun. If that means that one character gets an extra +1 on his weapon because he needs it more, that's just dandy.
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I think the best way to do this is to ask the player what he wants to do in the game, and explain to him why certain choices take him closer to the goal.
what characters are the other players playing
Let him roll a new character after his croaks? Usually works for disappointed players.
Let him roll a new character after his croaks? Usually works for disappointed players.
Well, as a gnome fighter with Dodge and Toughness, his character is NOT gonna croak, unless something crazy happens. The real question is if he's gonna do any damage.
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How do you do that, mechanically? I mean, in videogames you have skills that you use on a monster, and it'll keep its attention on you no matter what, but here, unless you use magic or some other ability (that a Core Fighter doesn't have), nearly any monster will prefer to go on easier prey, rather than tough and well-armed characters.
It's up to you as the GM to simulate the kind of thinking of an enemy, which typically is "This fellow is trying to cut off my head, I should shut him down quickly so I can proceed to decimate the rest of his allies at my leisure."
Only the supremely badass or informed enemies do this kind of thing, and even then, this guy gets annoyed and then shuts down the "Tank".
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Practice what you preach. If you have a solid emphasis on roleplaying as you say, then the difference between Power Attack and Toughness is not all that huge. Those feats affect combat only.
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what characters are the other players playing^THIS.
Core-only? If this is a party with say dwarf twf rogue and an elven monk, this gnome may outshine the others.
On the other hand if the other two are cleric and wizard and we're going past level 4? There may be an issue.
Not necessarily. If the casters focus on debuffing and support, with a bit of healing or blasting, a fighter can happily wade into melee and not feel underpowered. I'd be more worried about a well-built melee paladin or ranger since they're more likely to step on the fighter's toes.
How do you do that, mechanically? I mean, in videogames you have skills that you use on a monster, and it'll keep its attention on you no matter what, but here, unless you use magic or some other ability (that a Core Fighter doesn't have), nearly any monster will prefer to go on easier prey, rather than tough and well-armed characters.It's up to you as the GM to simulate the kind of thinking of an enemy, which typically is "This fellow is trying to cut off my head, I should shut him down quickly so I can proceed to decimate the rest of his allies at my leisure."
Only the supremely badass or informed enemies do this kind of thing, and even then, this guy gets annoyed and then shuts down the "Tank".
The trick here is that if you're going to draw the enemy's attention by virtue of threatening to cut their head off, you need to actually have the offensive skill to back that up. If you're tough but can't hurt the enemy, and your allies are vulnerable but deadly, the enemy will figure that out and go through you to them - you don't waste time cracking open a turtle when there's a viper at your ankles. Of course, if your allies can take out the enemy in the 1-2 rounds it takes them to realize you're a turtle...
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Both Gnomes and Halfling have feats to help them overcome the damage the -2 str gives.
A halfling gets risky striker....and a Gnome gets Arcane Strike
Tell him around level 5 to pick up arcane strike for his gnome fighter.
Drop him good gear....SOmeone mentioned its up to the group how to distribute loot...Somewhat true but not really.
What group would let a small Adamantine Greataxe go to market when a Fighter is a gnome greataxe user. Just make sure he gets his core items...the fact that he is small will let you the DM tailor some drops no one in the party can dispute goes to this fighter. But don't go overboard just make sure he has his core items.
Also the hate on Dodge and toughness. I like both feats...typically you don't take them together. But toughness is a great feat for surviving level 1 on the frontline. Pairing Dodge + Small sized is a way to boost his AC for level 1. Sure he isn't choping folks down as fast as the Power attack Barbarian...but he is trying making sure he is alive to hit that extra 1-2 times needed for not taking PA and settling to a 15 strength.
Basically Let him play it how he wants but defiantly point out the arcane strike feat and tell him to work towards Weapon Specialization so he has some moderate damage coming out.
What is the rest of the party?
Dodge and Toughness will help him survive to level 2.
At and after level 2: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, Arcane Strike, Craft Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Initiative, Vital Strike, Improved Critical, Greater Weapon Focus, Critical Focus, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Specialization, Bleeding Critical, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Deadly Stroke.
Step Up, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Strike Back, Blind-fight, Fleet (a couple times!), Lunge, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Nimble Moves, Persuasive, Master Craftsman, Cleave, Great Cleave, etc. would all work.
Remember, the size bonus to attack rolls will make up for the lower Strength score to attack rolls, so he's only doing a little less damage. Plus he gets all the gnome benefits.
At 1st level, he's still getting +4 on melee attack rolls, and his AC is really good. If he eventually gets a reach weapon, with his Size bonus to AC and Dodge bonus to AC, it's pretty much the same as using a shield--except it also works against touch and ranged touch attacks. That's pretty cool. Usually you can't benefit from reach and a shield.
I think this can actually work really well mechanically. A good balance of attack & damage, AC, and hit points.
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You're really concerned that he's going to have his play experience ruined by trading a 5% increase in to-hit for a 5% reduction in the enemies to-hit? Do you really think the difference between this two- handed d10 slashing weapon and that two-handed d10 slashing weapon is enough to ruin his play experience?
