Hit the Ceiling at Rogue 7


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

I meant to post this a few days ago (Thursday to be exact) because it was then that I realized I can not train level 8 in Stealth or Hit Points.

With War of Towers not in play yet, it may be a week or more before those Feats are available.


We're you planning on going full rogue or cross training fighter/rogue?

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
We're you planning on going full rogue or cross training fighter/rogue?

Full Rogue or perhaps a 70/30 split between Rogue and Fighter.

Goblin Squad Member

I applaud those that manage to stick to a chosen, focussed path. I can only come close to this with my Crafter Alts that were purely made for the purpose of Dual Crafting(pairing up two professions with the same Ability req), and even then, barely. :(

Goblin Squad Member

Yup. A combatant character that bee-lines for role levels and Tier 2 attacks can get there in 2 weeks or less, much faster than the crafters that will provide the T2 gear at level 7 in their primary skill. A month after the launch of WoT, the difference probably won't be noticeable at all.

Goblin Squad Member

Correction to OP: It was Stealth 8 and Power 8 (not Hit Points).

If I'm not mistaken the attribute increase for each level is .08, so if I train all 12 attacks (Short Bow and Light Blade) I should reach Dexterity 11.

However I also have:

Stealth 7
Ranged Attack Bonus 4
Reflex Bonus 4
Scout 4
Swashbuckler 4
Opportunist 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Light Armor Proficiency 1
Light Blade Proficiency 1
Rogue Kit Proficiency 1

None of these have contributed to getting 1 point in Dexterity???

Goblin Squad Member

Would you like chocolate chip or oatmeal raisin?

j/k. Grats on the dedication!

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

Correction to OP: It was Stealth 8 and Power 8 (not Hit Points).

If I'm not mistaken the attribute increase for each level is .08, so if I train all 12 attacks (Short Bow and Light Blade) I should reach Dexterity 11.

However I also have:

Stealth 7
Ranged Attack Bonus 4
Reflex Bonus 4
Scout 4
Swashbuckler 4
Opportunist 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Light Armor Proficiency 1
Light Blade Proficiency 1
Rogue Kit Proficiency 1

None of these have contributed to getting 1 point in Dexterity???

I am assuming that you also have Bow Weapon Proficiency, Base Attack Bonus 3, and all your 12 attacks are R2.

By my calculations, this should bring you somewhere close to 10.587 dex. To amp up, you might consider buying some upgrades to your feature (getting to rank 3 would give 0.162 dex or rank 4 0.382 dex). Moving from rank 2 to rank 3 in attacks gives 0.045 dex per attack.

I am sitting in a similar position and it isn't all too awesome.

Values provided by: Sspitfire


plopmania wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

Correction to OP: It was Stealth 8 and Power 8 (not Hit Points).

If I'm not mistaken the attribute increase for each level is .08, so if I train all 12 attacks (Short Bow and Light Blade) I should reach Dexterity 11.

However I also have:

Stealth 7
Ranged Attack Bonus 4
Reflex Bonus 4
Scout 4
Swashbuckler 4
Opportunist 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Light Armor Proficiency 1
Light Blade Proficiency 1
Rogue Kit Proficiency 1

None of these have contributed to getting 1 point in Dexterity???

I am assuming that you also have Bow Weapon Proficiency, Base Attack Bonus 3, and all your 12 attacks are R2.

By my calculations, this should bring you somewhere close to 10.587 dex. To amp up, you might consider buying some upgrades to your feature (getting to rank 3 would give 0.162 dex or rank 4 0.382 dex). Moving from rank 2 to rank 3 in attacks gives 0.045 dex per attack.

I am sitting in a similar position and it isn't all too awesome.

Values provided by: Sspitfire

Ninja'd!


Yeah Bludd, pick out a rogue feature and level it up. You might not be using it right now; but it is your primary source of dexterity. All the things you mentioned above DO add to dexterity; its just that the bonuses are excruciatingly small.

You might also go ahead and start training up a second weapon to R3. Since you are going rogue and are using light blades, all of those attacks will also add to your dexterity and I think you will find it valuable to have a second weapon option also at T2 strength (R4) for the duration of the game.

Also, go ahead and take the time to train up your defensives and reactives to Rank 2 while you can. They might not look like much; but they will pay dividends in the future.

Rogue Features are where most of your dexterity will come from, though.

Be mindful, too, that the Scout Armor feat is going to require you to raise Wisdom more than you might like. The TL;DR on that is that it makes sense for the feat and the game design intentions of the dev's; but it is still a pain if you aren't expecting it- or even if you are. Chaemeleon is the way to go for a pure Dex armor feat. (Also, Paizo's spell-checker doesn't recognize "chameleon" as a word.)

Best of luck!

Goblin Squad Member

Nobody using Nightdrifters calculator?

It is a great tool to map out a path, especially if you need to "follow" a certain Ability like Dex. If you get a "Dex too low" you can push a button for suggestions on which skills to upgrade in order to get more Dex.

You will notice that the first increase to 11 Dex is hard but the higher a skill or Feat gets, the quicker the increase in that abililty.

I am pretty sure most people in this thread know all this, just thought I'd mention it again.

His last version: Calculator from Nightdrifter

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:

Correction to OP: It was Stealth 8 and Power 8 (not Hit Points).

If I'm not mistaken the attribute increase for each level is .08, so if I train all 12 attacks (Short Bow and Light Blade) I should reach Dexterity 11.

However I also have:

Stealth 7
Ranged Attack Bonus 4
Reflex Bonus 4
Scout 4
Swashbuckler 4
Opportunist 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Light Armor Proficiency 1
Light Blade Proficiency 1
Rogue Kit Proficiency 1

None of these have contributed to getting 1 point in Dexterity???

Attacks give .004, .021, and .045 at level 1, 2, 3.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

I've hit that same cap. Power 8 I have, but I do not see Stealth 8 at the trainers at all.

CEO, Goblinworks

According to my most recent calculation you should need 25 days of XP to reach Rogue Rank 8.

This was my last test build:

Balestra 3
Base Attack Bonus 2
Bow Weapon Proficiency
Bullseye Shot 1
Clustered Shots 3
Compound 3
Deadly Aim 3
Deception 3
Distant Shot 3
Distracting Shot 3
Escape 1
Fan 1
Followthrough Foresight 1
Footwork 1
Forehand 1
Half-Draw 1
Hit Points 6
Impact Critical Shot 1
Impaling Shot 1
Light Blade Weapon Proficiency 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Medium Armor Proficiency
Multi-Shot 1
Overdraw 1
Parry 3
Parting Shot 1
Patient Anchor 1
Perception 5
Pinpoint Targeting 1
Point Blank Shot 3
Power 8
Precise Shot 3
Press 3
Prime 3
Quick Shot 3
Ranged Attack Bonus 3
Reflex Bonus 4
Rogue Kit Implement Proficiency 1
Running Shot 3
Snap Shot 3
Sorrow's Release 1
Stealth 8
Stop Cut 3
Swashbuckler 2
Thrust 2
Thwack 1
Toughness 1

According to my calculation this results in a gain of 1.083 DEX.

CEO, Goblinworks

I think it is possible that you will not be able to train to Rank 8 in a PC Settlement until after War of Towers begins. I believe that the PC Settlement trainers have a starting max training level that is lower than the NPC Trainers. If you aren't finding the Feat you want in your PC Settlement you may have to check an NPC Trainer for a bit.

Goblin Squad Member

How much deadlier are you than you were at lvl 1? If you had to fight yourself at level 1 and the level 1 you got in the first shot who would win?

Goblin Squad Member

Even if you took nothing other than 'Hit Points 6', the more skilled character is going to win one on one.

The more pertinent question is 'How many level 1 characters would it take to win the fight?'.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Mr. Dancey, Rogue 8 requires BAB 3, but you only have BAB 2 on your test build. Also, I'm at the NPC trainers in Kindleburn, yet I do not see Stealth 8 as an option on the Rogue Trainer, not even as "unavailable."

Goblin Squad Member

@ Ryan

Although I appreciate your list / efforts in checking this out, there are obviously some choices there that throw being dedicated to a role out the window.

First you have spending experience points into both Short Bow and Long Bow. Yes technically you can swap out one for another, but no one will actually play that way. A ranged / melee swap is more practical, especially since the SB generates subterfuge achievements and the LB generates martial.

Medium Armor Proficiency, increases Dexterity? None of the Rogue Armor Features support Medium as a key word. Having to train in that makes no sense for a dedicated Rogue.

There is an issue IMO if it takes about 7 days to go from Rogue 0 to Rogue 7 and then an additional 18 Days to go from Rogue 7 to Rogue 8.

If you are going to have a truly classless system, then all resemblance of having classes should be removed. This means that class features should be renamed and retooled to function differently. This means that weapons achievement gating should be universal or perhaps broken down into broader categories: Melee, Ranged, Casted

Armor Features can then effect all four categories of armor and all three categories of weapons.

Cloth, Light, Medium, Heavy
...Casted, Ranged, Melee...

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
Mr. Dancey, Rogue 8 requires BAB 3, but you only have BAB 2 on your test build. Also, I'm at the NPC trainers in Kindleburn, yet I do not see Stealth 8 as an option on the Rogue Trainer, not even as "unavailable."

Power 8 and Stealth 8, both required for Rogue 8, are not available until after the WoT begins and only in settlements that control enough towers to to support that level of training.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Drakhan Valane wrote:
Mr. Dancey, Rogue 8 requires BAB 3, but you only have BAB 2 on your test build. Also, I'm at the NPC trainers in Kindleburn, yet I do not see Stealth 8 as an option on the Rogue Trainer, not even as "unavailable."
Power 8 and Stealth 8, both required for Rogue 8, are not available until after the WoT begins and only in settlements that control enough towers to to support that level of training.

I have Power 8. It's on my feat list.

Edit: Also, Power 9 is available to buy as well. Power 15-16 might not be available? But Clerics/Wizards need 2 Power levels per rank, so capping it at 7 would be devastating to them. Go to the Seminary or equivalent wizard trainer for them.

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Drakhan Valane wrote:
Mr. Dancey, Rogue 8 requires BAB 3, but you only have BAB 2 on your test build. Also, I'm at the NPC trainers in Kindleburn, yet I do not see Stealth 8 as an option on the Rogue Trainer, not even as "unavailable."
Power 8 and Stealth 8, both required for Rogue 8, are not available until after the WoT begins and only in settlements that control enough towers to to support that level of training.
I have Power 8. It's on my feat list.

I don't see that available at the Dreadnaught, Rogue or Skirmisher Trainer, not even as unavailable.

Did you get it from Cleric or Wizard Trainer?

Goblin Squad Member

While I agree, that the exp curve between "level" 7 and 8 is rather wide, I don't think it matters (unless I am wrong :)

I mean, to my understanding, you can actually saturate the whole of Tier 3 without ever crossing the magical border of level 7 and 8. Of course, currently it isn't possible to buy those feats but when they are available, I don't there's any reason why you should get the achievement level 8 for rogue. The perceptions and stealth ranks are not required to advance fully into Tier 3 of everything.

I _might_ be wrong tho.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

plopmania wrote:

While I agree, that the exp curve between "level" 7 and 8 is rather wide, I don't think it matters (unless I am wrong :)

I mean, to my understanding, you can actually saturate the whole of Tier 3 without ever crossing the magical border of level 7 and 8. Of course, currently it isn't possible to buy those feats but when they are available, I don't there's any reason why you should get the achievement level 8 for rogue. The perceptions and stealth ranks are not required to advance fully into Tier 3 of everything.

I _might_ be wrong tho.

Rogue Kit Implement 2 requires Rogue 7, so I'd imagine the Tier 3 Rogue Kit requires something similar at higher levels.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ah, yes. It requires level 15.
Not fully saturate then. Anyhow, I guess I was trying to make the point, that character progression itself is quite far from capped. Or something like that.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There is always the option of just temporarily forgetting the XP-levelup-minigame (which like min-maxing is really a holdover from oldschool level capped RPGS)and actually do other stuff in game and stockpile XP so that when war of the towers starts you can just level instantly.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

About classless

I take care that I have everything I need to use a +2 weapon successfully - and will upgrade this to a tier 2 weapon.

I see the whole build different. What items are available - can I ensure I use them to the max ability.

So for me it is pretty much clasless - unless I run into a feat where I need a class x rank y - but by that time it often is one or two feats that need updating as I fullfill everything else.

Don't feel bound by 'classes' - you can play classless to a certain degree now.

CEO, Goblinworks

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Seems the Feat advancement sheets have been changed again since my last build of this character. Not surprising. Every time I take my eye off this stuff it gets changed. :)

I quickly rebuilt my spreadsheet but I (obviously) didn't check this in game. If I get time next week I'll build this in-game to verify.

Base Attack Bonus 3
Bow Weapon Proficiency
Clustered Shots 3
Deadly Aim 3
Distant Shot 3
Distracting Shot 3
Escape 1
Hit Points 6
Light Blade Weapon Proficiency 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Multi-Shot 3
Perception 5
Point Blank Shot 3
Power 8
Precise Shot 3
Quick Shot 3
Ranged Attack Bonus 3
Reflex Bonus 4
Rogue Kit Implement Proficiency 1
Running Shot 3
Snap Shot 3
Stealth 8
Swashbuckler 1
Swashbuckler 2
Thwack 1
Toughness 1

As computed that's 18.7 days of XP. Dex bonus of 1.029.

No attacks but Shortbow Feats.

I don't think that having a substantial number of days pass between earning Role ranks is important, no. In fact, the time is going to get longer and longer the more Ranks you pursue. It isn't a problem because you're getting to increase a large number of Feats during that period - you're not just sitting there doing nothing.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Seems the Feat advancement sheets have been changed again since my last build of this character. Not surprising. Every time I take my eye off this stuff it gets changed. :)

I quickly rebuilt my spreadsheet but I (obviously) didn't check this in game. If I get time next week I'll build this in-game to verify.

Base Attack Bonus 3
Bow Weapon Proficiency
Clustered Shots 3
Deadly Aim 3
Distant Shot 3
Distracting Shot 3
Escape 1
Hit Points 6
Light Blade Weapon Proficiency 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Multi-Shot 3
Perception 5
Point Blank Shot 3
Power 8
Precise Shot 3
Quick Shot 3
Ranged Attack Bonus 3
Reflex Bonus 4
Rogue Kit Implement Proficiency 1
Running Shot 3
Snap Shot 3
Stealth 8
Swashbuckler 1
Swashbuckler 2
Thwack 1
Toughness 1

As computed that's 18.7 days of XP. Dex bonus of 1.029.

No attacks but Shortbow Feats.

I don't think that having a substantial number of days pass between earning Role ranks is important, no. In fact, the time is going to get longer and longer the more Ranks you pursue. It isn't a problem because you're getting to increase a large number of Feats during that period - you're not just sitting there doing nothing.

I much appreciate the recalculations. I'm also looking into if I inlclude the Light Blade features and see if 12 - 15 attack feats at level 2 produce the same as 9 at level 3.

I'm ultimately trying to build the character as dedicated and efficient as possible, to match my own play style.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:

Nobody using Nightdrifters calculator?

It is a great tool to map out a path, especially if you need to "follow" a certain Ability like Dex. If you get a "Dex too low" you can push a button for suggestions on which skills to upgrade in order to get more Dex.

You will notice that the first increase to 11 Dex is hard but the higher a skill or Feat gets, the quicker the increase in that abililty.

I am pretty sure most people in this thread know all this, just thought I'd mention it again.

His last version: Calculator from Nightdrifter

That version is possibly out of date. I'm going to work on updating it asap.

Goblin Squad Member

Awesome, thanks Nightdrifter.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:

Seems the Feat advancement sheets have been changed again since my last build of this character. Not surprising. Every time I take my eye off this stuff it gets changed. :)

I quickly rebuilt my spreadsheet but I (obviously) didn't check this in game. If I get time next week I'll build this in-game to verify.

Base Attack Bonus 3
Bow Weapon Proficiency
Clustered Shots 3
Deadly Aim 3
Distant Shot 3
Distracting Shot 3
Escape 1
Hit Points 6
Light Blade Weapon Proficiency 1
Light Melee Attack Bonus 2
Multi-Shot 3
Perception 5
Point Blank Shot 3
Power 8
Precise Shot 3
Quick Shot 3
Ranged Attack Bonus 3
Reflex Bonus 4
Rogue Kit Implement Proficiency 1
Running Shot 3
Snap Shot 3
Stealth 8
Swashbuckler 1
Swashbuckler 2
Thwack 1
Toughness 1

As computed that's 18.7 days of XP. Dex bonus of 1.029.

No attacks but Shortbow Feats.

I don't think that having a substantial number of days pass between earning Role ranks is important, no. In fact, the time is going to get longer and longer the more Ranks you pursue. It isn't a problem because you're getting to increase a large number of Feats during that period - you're not just sitting there doing nothing.

Stealth 8 requires Dex 11, and gives +.041 Dex, so you would be at Dex 10.988 and unable to get Stealth 8

(if the Copy of PFO Wiki - Official Data is up to date)

Also, Swashbuckler does nothing for archery, so you might want to swap for scout. Take it to 5 (another 1857 exp, 19.47 days total) and you'd have the Dex for Stealth 8.

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