If Another AP Got a Hardcover Makeover, Which One Would You Want?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I'm currently running Second Dorkness and there are a lot of patches I have to sew into it to make it flow. Yet when things get rocking and rolling in it, its pretty dang awesome. I just wish there was more time spent in the underdark.

Dark Archive

I don't really like idea of Pathfinder rule system aps getting "content update" :P I mean, sure updating 3.5 to current rules AND giving new content, thats fine, but just updating new content? Eh.

Though I do like idea that when they realize VTT versions of stuff that they would errata errors and maybe add something bonus same time(assuming they won't sell each part seperately) xP But I doubt they would do that


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J-Bone wrote:
I'm currently running Second Dorkness

Man, wasn't puberty was hard enough the first time? Brave.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really hope it's Kingmaker because I'm holding off paying $150+ for it in the aftermarket.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
awscott1978 wrote:
I really hope it's Kingmaker because I'm holding off paying $150+ for it in the aftermarket.

PDFs exist!

Shadow Lodge

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Gorbacz wrote:
awscott1978 wrote:
I really hope it's Kingmaker because I'm holding off paying $150+ for it in the aftermarket.
PDFs exist!

And don't fall apart!

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Some data to offer a perspective from the point of sales numbers (among other things):

SECOND DARKNESS:
#13, #14, #15, #16, #17 & #18 each have MORE than 1,000 issues in stock.

Hardcover treatment chance: ZERO (unluckily)!

LEGACY OF FIRE:
#19: between 250-499 issues in stock.
#20: between 250-499 issues in stock.
#21: between 500-999 issues in stock.
#22: sold out.
#23: between 25-99 issues in stock.
#24: between 25-99 issues in stock.

Hardcover treatment chance: 60%
There are between 1,050 and 2,195 issues left in stock and once part 5 and 6 are gone, one condition for a "reprint" may be met.
The other condition is this being an AP in need of a conversion from 3.5 rules to Pathfinder.

COUNCIL OF THIEVES:
#25 sold out.
#26 between 250-499 issues in stock.
#27, #28, #29 & #30: each has between 500-999 issues in stock.

Hardcover treatment chance: 10%
There are between 2,250 and 4,495 issues left in stock.
Although the Pathfinder rules were written at the same time as this AP, it is playable as it is and too many issues are left in stock.

KINGMAKER:
#31-#36: completely sold out.

Hardcover treatment chance: 50%. Maybe in a few years. A lot of people already have bought and played this. Right now, converting an older 3.5 adventure to Pathfinder rules seems more likely.

SERPENTS SKULL:
#37: sold out.
#38: between 1-24 issues in stock.
#39: between 250-499 issues in stock.
#40: sold out.
#41: between 100-249 issues in stock.
#42: between 250-499 issues in stock.

Hardcover treatment chance: 25%
There are between 601 and 1271 issues left in stock.
It looks pretty good that this AP will sell out in the next 2 years.
the chances that it gets adapted into a hardcover are still lower than for example "LoF", because it already uses the Pathfinder rules.

CARRION CROWN:
#45:(the only issue remaining) has between 250-499 issues in stock.

Hardcover treatment chance: 30%

CONCLUSION:
IF Paizo decides to make another hardcover in a few years (i´m pretty positive about that, but not before 2019) it will probably be "Legacy of Fire".
If they decide to collect a sold-out AP already developed with the Pathfinder rules, it will probably be "Kingmaker".


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
awscott1978 wrote:
I really hope it's Kingmaker because I'm holding off paying $150+ for it in the aftermarket.
PDFs exist!
And don't fall apart!

True enough, but on the other hand, paper doesn't crash.


Gorbacz wrote:
awscott1978 wrote:
I really hope it's Kingmaker because I'm holding off paying $150+ for it in the aftermarket.
PDFs exist!

And sadly do absolutely nothing for a bibliophile.


Oh noes I have to reopen my PDF!?

Sovereign Court

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Another thing that could be addressed in a Kingmaker revamp: Every KM game I've seen runs into a specific issue that is never addressed in the book - players take prisoners, and then have to figure out what to do with them. The mod gives some brief sketches of personality and motivation for some of the bandits, but it really offers no guidance at all for what happens if the players take captives and don't execute them. It's almost like it's written with the assumption that because the charter gives authority to execute bandits by sword or rope, that players will be kill-hungry and execute everyone. In practice I've never seen that happen - many players are hesitant to execute captives, and groups go through varying degrees of trying to imprison or rehabilitate bandits that they capture. This is an area that could at the very least use a sidebar of extra guidance. How many bandits can Oleg plausibly watch if the PCs decide to create a makeshift prison there? Can the bandits be rehabilitated? How do various approaches to the captives affect their morale and their choices about whether they will turn rogue again in the future or go legit? What if the players decide to create a "prison train" and start sending prisoners back to Restov (probably via Kesten Garess' guards)? What if the players' characters are evil and they decide to make everyone into slaves?

This is gonna come up for any group that doesn't just assume that defeated bandits are killed, and offering at least a little guidance in the AP would be a good idea.


I've hardly ever had Adobe Reader crash on me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would love to see Jade Regent get some hardcover makeup.
This time, Jade Regen unchained though, starting, taking place and ending in the continent it already ends.
Also updated and refined caravan rules and alternative characters.

And i had a hard time not mentioning this topic for at least a week and also not mentioning the name :P


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That would be a totally new adventure path, then.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zaister wrote:
That would be a totally new adventure path, then.

Surprise^^ :D


andygal wrote:
I've hardly ever had Adobe Reader crash on me.

I have had this happen occasionally, I was thinking more in terms of a crash of the data storage. And yes, I have had 2 hard drives start failing essentially simultaneously (although fortunately one of them failed slowly enough for me to be able to do something about it, and fortunately, I had all the important stuff backed up).


4 people marked this as a favorite.

well with Pazio PDFs as long as you don't forget your password you can redownload everything.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I strongly recommend an alternative PDF reader to Acrobat. I'm using Foxit and it's a marvel, with several really powerful marking/annotation features.

Liberty's Edge

Hayato Ken wrote:

I would love to see Jade Regent get some hardcover makeup.

This time, Jade Regen unchained though, starting, taking place and ending in the continent it already ends.
Also updated and refined caravan rules and alternative characters.

And i had a hard time not mentioning this topic for at least a week and also not mentioning the name :P

Sounds like a much better idea than what we got.


Hayato Ken wrote:

I would love to see Jade Regent get some hardcover makeup.

This time, Jade Regen unchained though, starting, taking place and ending in the continent it already ends.
Also updated and refined caravan rules and alternative characters.

And i had a hard time not mentioning this topic for at least a week and also not mentioning the name :P

Well, if you can understand Italian, your wish is granted :D

Two good hardcover APs can be Shattered Star and Hell's Rebel!

Dark Archive

The same is the case when you want "Irongods" as a hardcover and can comprehend german:

Eisengötter I

Eisengötter II


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Paizo would probably have to get permissions, but I would LOVE to see a Kingmaker hardcover that:

* Assumes the players will use the Ultimate Campaign kingdom-building rules, then offers ideas for how to extend them to account for player surprises.

* Revamps the plotlines and encounters. Blood for Blood and VV seem to assume the players will spend time exploring, rather than have adventurers do it for them. I mean, they're royals, for heaven's sake!!

* Revisit classes and races for the NPCs. A LOT of material, including the ACG classes, have been added since KM was published. There are also a LOT more fey creatures available now.

* Incorporate encounters that build on the systems in Ultimate Intrigue.

* Incorporate some of the material GMs on the KM boards have put together over the years, especially Redcelt, Caleb T. Gordon, and Dudemeister.


pennywit wrote:

Paizo would probably have to get permissions, but I would LOVE to see a Kingmaker hardcover that:

* Assumes the players will use the Ultimate Campaign kingdom-building rules, then offers ideas for how to extend them to account for player surprises.

* Revamps the plotlines and encounters. Blood for Blood and VV seem to assume the players will spend time exploring, rather than have adventurers do it for them. I mean, they're royals, for heaven's sake!!

* Revisit classes and races for the NPCs. A LOT of material, including the ACG classes, have been added since KM was published. There are also a LOT more fey creatures available now.

* Incorporate encounters that build on the systems in Ultimate Intrigue.

* Incorporate some of the material GMs on the KM boards have put together over the years, especially Redcelt, Caleb T. Gordon, and Dudemeister.

I have to agree with this, though I'd leave out the Occult Adventures and content that uses stuff from it, as not everyone is a fan of Psionics.

Dark Archive

RHMG Animator wrote:
pennywit wrote:

Paizo would probably have to get permissions, but I would LOVE to see a Kingmaker hardcover that:

* Assumes the players will use the Ultimate Campaign kingdom-building rules, then offers ideas for how to extend them to account for player surprises.

* Revamps the plotlines and encounters. Blood for Blood and VV seem to assume the players will spend time exploring, rather than have adventurers do it for them. I mean, they're royals, for heaven's sake!!

* Revisit classes and races for the NPCs. A LOT of material, including the ACG classes, have been added since KM was published. There are also a LOT more fey creatures available now.

* Incorporate encounters that build on the systems in Ultimate Intrigue.

* Incorporate some of the material GMs on the KM boards have put together over the years, especially Redcelt, Caleb T. Gordon, and Dudemeister.

I have to agree with this, though I'd leave out the Occult Adventures and content that uses stuff from it, as not everyone is a fan of Psionics.

Psychic magic =/= psionics

One of them is actually magic :P


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Oh man, as someone who is deep in GMing Second Darkness as well, (currently entering book 5) I can say I would love to see a complete overhaul on the campaign as well. I love the story, but I've all but rebuilt the plot to better suit my tastes.

If I may, I would like to voice the changes I made and see what other's think. I'm putting them behind spoilers just in case. Hope that's not a problem.

Book 1: Made a bunch of changes:

- Linked the casino robbery and the St. Caspieran church adventure in the back of the book together.
- Made Kwava and Samaritha Beldusk both Shin'Rakorath agents. Samaritha investigates the blot with the cyphermages while kwava tracks the drow in the city (and he know's it's drow).
- Introduced Samaritha using the Cyphermage dilemma module but tweaked it's plot to be a power-game between Tammerhawke and Zincher.
- Made Saul not want to kill the PC because "oh they're too good at their job" but because they learn his secret.
- Made Kwava more actively engaged with the party. Don't like that he asks the PC for aid but offers none in return when they go after his target.

Book 2: Didn't change too much:

- Put Samaritha on devil's elbow, ostensibly with the ragged cyphermage party (she's actually there to look into drow presence however) She ended up staying with the party when the cyphermages and the dwarves depart the island
- Cut out the "Zincher as drow stooge" angle.

Book 3: Did a lot to this one as well:

- Worked in Lament for Emerald Rains into the plot
- Added the Drow necromancer Fisaria into the plot, made her undead experiments a problem for Kaerisheal.
- Had Razornhorn personally attack Shalelu and her company
- Moved the Elven base camp to the library and then set up an assault on it that the PC's had to defend against.
- Made escaping the Armageddon Echo a skill challenge where failure meant death

- Huge Change: Reveal during celebration after battle that Samaritha is in fact, unbeknownst to all, Queen Telandia in disguise.

Books 4&5 will have incomplete lists as I'm still figuring things out.

Book 4: Redoing completely but not exactly sure how yet:

- I'm putting it after book 5 because I don't like backtracking.
- Also probably not gonna make it so the PCs have to work for the Vonnarcs. (plot too similar to book one imo)

Book 5: Small amount of major changes:

- Controversial elven politics thrown out.
- Winter Council isn't a bunch of jerks who try to kill the PCs after the PCs have done so much for them (by proxy, but still...) Queen Telandia asks the PCs to rescue them from Thorns end.
- Hailin may or may not end up a drow, not sure.
- Getting rid of Quilindra and superfluous trips through elf gates

Book 6: Don't really anticipate changing too much from this.

Anyway, that's what I've done. Curious to know what other's think.


J-Bone wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

I would love to see Jade Regent get some hardcover makeup.

This time, Jade Regen unchained though, starting, taking place and ending in the continent it already ends.
Also updated and refined caravan rules and alternative characters.

And i had a hard time not mentioning this topic for at least a week and also not mentioning the name :P

Sounds like a much better idea than what we got.

Or at least something that lets players explore Tien Xa more. By the time the PCs get there, they have to speed through the last module. Maybe do something with Hell's Rebels rebellion mechanics so the PCs can faff about more.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zaister wrote:
That would be a totally new adventure path, then.

yup.


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It's been a while since I last stated how much I'd appreciate a SD hardcover, so, I guess, it is time for me to write it again

Liberty's Edge

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What do we want? That's a matter of personal taste, coupled with whether the AP has gone partly/ mostly out of print.

That points to Kingmaker and Carrion Crown.

So what are we going to get? Kingmaker. It's sold out and nearly completely out of print. Only non-mint copies of Vol 3 and 6 are available. It's otherwise completely out of print at the Paizo store.

Determining Factor: There is NO WAY that Paizo is going to miss out on selling Kingmaker when the computer game version is released. Won't happen. This is especially so, given that non Pathfinder players who play the computer game may decide to buy an Anniv Edition Hardcover of Kingmaker on a "some day" basis just out of an interest in the computer game. Your potential market for the book is far larger than any other AP as a consequence. When you can sell a book to non-players? You don't miss out on that.

Kingmaker can do with some renovation. Changes to the modules by substituting/adding in newer creatures from the Bestiaries 2-6, changes to kingdom management, and addressing more foreshadowing of the Part VI end boss which isn't telegraphed as clearly into the AP as a whole as it probably should have been.

And there are potential synergies between new CRPG locales and encounters in the forthcoming computer game which a newly revised print version can explore as well.

Anyway, whether you agree with that take or not, there is no doubt in my mind at all that a Kingmaker Anniversary Edition will be coming, at or about the time of the release of Owlcat Games' CRPG.


Maybe they can just do them in order especially those that were written before the CORE book was released.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on a Kingmaker compilation for the following reasons...

1) Very popular AP.
2) Completely sold out.
3) Tie-in to upcoming Kingmaker video game.
4) Kingdom-building rules have been revised, expanded, and published in another volume, thus don't have to be in the compilation itself.
5) Extra sales of Ultimate Campaign for the kingdom-building rules.


Despite its flaws, I loved reading through Second Darkness. Unfortunately, I can't interest any of my players in it, as they are all completely Drowed-out, but I'm still hoping to run it one day and would totally buy a hardcover.

My vote for next hardcover goes, however, to Carrion Crown. The big flaw in that adventure path could be fixed by a few changes to the first part to foreshadow the ending. Paizo could also use the opportunity to rewrite the adventure a bit to include classes from Occult Adventures and monsters from Bestiary 4.

That said, my money is also on Kingmaker being the next up.

Dark Archive

Well, frick, now that they are doing second edition of Pathfinder, I could actually see them doing Kingmaker hardcover version with it being updated to second edition <_<

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