Agent Carter


Television

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I sighed with relief that the Final Blade had finally dropped. I was pretty much expecting Agent Carter to fail with a male audience. If Lynda Carter hadn't been showing so much skin, Wonder Woman would have met the same fate decades ago.

So no one is going to address this?

Really?


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ShinHakkaider wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I sighed with relief that the Final Blade had finally dropped. I was pretty much expecting Agent Carter to fail with a male audience. If Lynda Carter hadn't been showing so much skin, Wonder Woman would have met the same fate decades ago.

So no one is going to address this?

Really?

Several people followed up right after, apparently disagreeing, and saying it failed because it focused too much on "girl power" and "women's issues".

My mind boggled enough that I couldn't really come up with anything coherent.


thejeff wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I sighed with relief that the Final Blade had finally dropped. I was pretty much expecting Agent Carter to fail with a male audience. If Lynda Carter hadn't been showing so much skin, Wonder Woman would have met the same fate decades ago.

So no one is going to address this?

Really?

Several people followed up right after, apparently disagreeing, and saying it failed because it focused too much on "girl power" and "women's issues".

My mind boggled enough that I couldn't really come up with anything coherent.

It's more a matter of bad writing and occasionally cringy comments.

Neither should particularly bother anyone at this point, especially if you can get through scenes like this without wincing, but it is a legitimate comment on how easily writing can sometimes dip into glorifying a character rather than actually characterizing them.

Of course it's doubtful that this is what killed the show...I'd be more inclined to believe it was how season 2 meandered around aimlessly and there were only three characters of any real interest in the whole ensemble.

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Save Carter!

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Marik Whiterose wrote:
Save Carter!

Could work. Disney's certainly had success with Daredevil. Maybe the House of Mouse will go for it.

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I would gladly sign that petition if it meant giving Peggy the Netflix treatment.

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Marik Whiterose wrote:
Save Carter!

Will not work. Hayley Atwell has already moved on.

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Lord Fyre wrote:
Marik Whiterose wrote:
Save Carter!
Will not work. Hayley Atwell has already moved on.

She said originally if Agent Carter had been renewed, she was planning to do both. She took on Conviction before they knew Agent Carter's fate, after all, so had to plan to make it work if she needed to. Agent Carter is a short series so it's a lot easier to schedule amongst other projects. (A lot of Agent Carter actors also did other stuff, but had stipulations in their contracts to be sure they could also do the show, which says a lot about how much they liked working on it.)

Not to mention, IF Netflix took on Agent Carter, it'd likely be awhile before it started filming.


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thejeff wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I sighed with relief that the Final Blade had finally dropped. I was pretty much expecting Agent Carter to fail with a male audience. If Lynda Carter hadn't been showing so much skin, Wonder Woman would have met the same fate decades ago.

So no one is going to address this?

Really?

Several people followed up right after, apparently disagreeing, and saying it failed because it focused too much on "girl power" and "women's issues".

My mind boggled enough that I couldn't really come up with anything coherent.

If Agent Carter was too "girl power" then I'd hate to see what they thought about Supergirl. :P

.

I don't really think that Agent Carter is too much "girl power". It's set in the Marvel universe, where almost everyone is either exceedingly competent (like Peggy), exceedingly INcompetent (like most of the non-main characters she meets), or evil.

It's funny how if there's a show where the main character is better than everyone else, it's pushing a "girl power" agenda if that character is female....

...but it's just accepted as normal if that main character is male.

.

Jack Bauer was better than everyone else on 24...was that a "boy power" show?

.

I personally enjoyed Agent Carter a LOT more than Agents of SHIELD.

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Anything that isn't the same old boys club will always have it's detractors. And on the internet they get to hide behind anonymity.


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Norman Osborne wrote:


If Agent Carter was too "girl power" then I'd hate to see what they thought about Supergirl. :P

Another example of a solid show with occasionally very cringy writing.

Though, again, Agent Carter had it much less commonly. I could name one every other episodes in Supergirl (most of them from the first 6 or so), maybe twice a season in Carter.

Norman Osborne wrote:

I don't really think that Agent Carter is too much "girl power". It's set in the Marvel universe, where almost everyone is either exceedingly competent (like Peggy), exceedingly INcompetent (like most of the non-main characters she meets), or evil.

It's funny how if there's a show where the main character is better than everyone else, it's pushing a "girl power" agenda if that character is female....

Unless I'm mistaken, that's not what anyone is talking about. It's not what I meant in any case.

The main character being hyper competent is expected. However, lines like what I posted above are not.

Think of it from the opposite side. Imagine a bunch of people holding a man back from fighting and he utters a line like "Just because I have a swinging sack between my legs doesn't mean I can't throw a punch".

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Yes but the show also takes into effect the actual issues the character would have had to deal with given the era. One of the things I liked about Agent Carter was that it didn't pretend the Marvel Universe version of the 40's and 50's wasn't sexist or for that matter racist.

A guy saying something like that in that setting would be kind of ridiculous because nobody thinks that. Anything Peggy said was pretty much what at least 60 percent of the men around her were thinking.

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Comparing Agent Carter to Supergirl in terms of writing quality is like comparing J.K. Rowling to the chick who wrote Twilight. The former may have made mistakes at times and had some occasional trouble with plotholes, but still managed to make something thoroughly entertaining with memorable, beloved characters. The latter just wrote drivel based on what was popular or desired. (Mind, I actually liked much of the Supergirl show, and I do NOT like Twilight, but I am aware its writing is not its strength).

Sundakan, maybe I skimmed over something I don't know what "lines" you are referring to, and the youtube link you provided goes to an episode of MacGyver. There was some cringy dialogue in Carter on occasion... most of it revolving around that dumbass love triangle in Season 2 (that and the anticlimactic ending were that season's two weakness, IMO), but it was more the exception that proved the rule. Certainly I can't think of any equivalent to your "swinging sack" comment off the top of my head. In terms of stuff that referred to the sexism of the period, I don't think stuff like...

Quote:


Roxxon Exec: ((Something on the attractiveness of the local secretaries.)) What's your name, darling?
Peggy: Agent.

... Are comparable. (Actually, that scene in particular I found pretty funny.)


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He just likes to pick fights. Call it what you will, but it's his/her thang.

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I thought the first season pushed the sexism angle almost too far. The one scene that really stuck in my craw was when Dottie killed the dentist to take over his office to do her sniping. That scene should have been used to show how cold-blooded she was, but by making the victim into a lech ready to prey on a vulnerable young woman, it seemed like it was trying to justify his murder.

I'm glad the second season really toned that down, and I appreciated the complexity of Whitney Frost's character being both powerful and constrained at the same time.


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Sundakan wrote:


Think of it from the opposite side. Imagine a bunch of people holding a man back from fighting and he utters a line like "Just because I have a swinging sack between my legs doesn't mean I can't throw a punch".

Men generally aren't faced in a situation where they're assumed not not to be qualified for a job because they have that thing between their legs. Whereas in many fields it's a "given belief" that they're inherently unqualified period, especially during that time, but that sentiment is still echohed today.


DeathQuaker wrote:


Sundakan, maybe I skimmed over something I don't know what "lines" you are referring to, and the youtube link you provided goes to an episode of MacGyver. There was some cringy dialogue in Carter on occasion... most of it revolving around that dumbass love triangle in Season 2 (that and the anticlimactic ending were that season's two weakness, IMO), but it was more the exception that proved the rule. Certainly I can't think of any equivalent to your "swinging sack" comment off the top of my head. In terms of stuff that referred to the sexism of the period, I don't think stuff like...

An episode of SG-1, actually, though McGyver IS the main character...

Like I said, good examples are few and far between. I'd have to re-watch the whole series to pull up specific examples. I just remember a few times, particularly in season 1, where it deviated from showing Carter as competent because she was a highly trained and experienced field agent, and showing the very natural feeling sexism of the time, to making certain characters chauvinist cardboard cut-outs just so she can one-up them.

I remember a lot of them involved involved Captain Coward McDouchbag, though he wasn't likeable anyway for a dozen other reasons.

captain yesterday wrote:
He just likes to pick fights. Call it what you will, but it's his/her thang.

Who's fighting?

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Sundakan wrote:


Think of it from the opposite side. Imagine a bunch of people holding a man back from fighting and he utters a line like "Just because I have a swinging sack between my legs doesn't mean I can't throw a punch".

Men generally aren't faced in a situation where they're assumed not not to be qualified for a job because they have that thing between their legs. Whereas in many fields it's a "given belief" that they're inherently unqualified period, especially during that time, but that sentiment is still echohed today.

Right you are, but we're just talking about bad writing here, I thought. Of course it's a line that would likely never be said outside of a satirical comedy...but that's really the point.


Norman Osborne wrote:

If Agent Carter was too "girl power" then I'd hate to see what they thought about Supergirl. :P

I actually like the Supergirl show a LOT. I agree with the issue being the writing, but I give higher props to Supergirl.

In Supergirl, Cat Grant is an overbearing obnoxious girl power fanatic... but that's kind of her thing. She's a secondary character who offers advice once in a while... but she's not the actual focus.

Supergirl gets looked down on... but it's not JUST because she's a girl... She's also disrespected because she's young... she's inexperienced, she makes legitimate mistakes, and she's being compared to SUPERMAN... It's a tough shadow to step out of. And of course while they disrespect her as a hero... people are still terrified of her because she's an all powerful alien. In fact that's always been General Lane and Max Lord's point of view... Alien = Bad... not Woman = weak.

With Carter she's one who REPEATEDLY would defend her awesomeness and the awesomeness of women everywhere through terrible dialogue and surrounded by stupid menfolk who can't accomplish anything without her...

It got tedious. I still think that if they brought in the Howling Commandos... started up SHIELD and been a team of awesome guys AND awesome Gals all doing Awesome stuff, it would have been great.

They could even have her take advantage of the Male dominated society... but c'mon... The SSR knew EXACTLY who she was and what she was capable of. The whole Captain America thing was all SSR, and she was their eyes on the ground the whole time. If they REALLY believed her to be some weak useless woman... they would have kept back with the civilians in the first place and never sent her to front lines. THAT wasn't realistic for 1940's.

I really will miss having another Marvel show to watch during the Agents of SHIELD off season...

I wonder what they're going to come up with for those months...

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phantom1592 wrote:
I wonder what they're going to come up with for those months...

Quite probably nothing.


I would imagine the Bobby/Hunter spin-off will debut then, myself.

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Sundakan wrote:
I would imagine the Bobby/Hunter spin-off will debut then, myself.

I don't think that is happening.

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Sundakan wrote:
Neither should particularly bother anyone at this point, especially if you can get through scenes like this without wincing, but it is a legitimate comment on how easily writing can sometimes dip into glorifying a character rather than actually characterizing them.

Seriously?

That was twenty YEARS ago.

If you have to reach back that far for an example, maybe it isn't much of a 'problem'.


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phantom1592 wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:

If Agent Carter was too "girl power" then I'd hate to see what they thought about Supergirl. :P

I actually like the Supergirl show a LOT. I agree with the issue being the writing, but I give higher props to Supergirl.

In Supergirl, Cat Grant is an overbearing obnoxious girl power fanatic... but that's kind of her thing. She's a secondary character who offers advice once in a while... but she's not the actual focus.

Supergirl gets looked down on... but it's not JUST because she's a girl... She's also disrespected because she's young... she's inexperienced, she makes legitimate mistakes, and she's being compared to SUPERMAN... It's a tough shadow to step out of. And of course while they disrespect her as a hero... people are still terrified of her because she's an all powerful alien. In fact that's always been General Lane and Max Lord's point of view... Alien = Bad... not Woman = weak.

With Carter she's one who REPEATEDLY would defend her awesomeness and the awesomeness of women everywhere through terrible dialogue and surrounded by stupid menfolk who can't accomplish anything without her...

It got tedious. I still think that if they brought in the Howling Commandos... started up SHIELD and been a team of awesome guys AND awesome Gals all doing Awesome stuff, it would have been great.

They could even have her take advantage of the Male dominated society... but c'mon... The SSR knew EXACTLY who she was and what she was capable of. The whole Captain America thing was all SSR, and she was their eyes on the ground the whole time. If they REALLY believed her to be some weak useless woman... they would have kept back with the civilians in the first place and never sent her to front lines. THAT wasn't realistic for 1940's.

I really will miss having another Marvel show to watch during the Agents of SHIELD off season...

I wonder what they're going to come up with for those months...

Spoken like someone who has never talked to women who had jobs before the men came back from the war. Seriously, it was a huge deal that women entered into fields for the first time because of the war, then when the soldiers came back competent women who had proven themselves were pushed out of jobs they had held for years. Ignoring that fact would make it a terrible period piece.


I find this incredibly disappointing (especially in light of the Mockingbird spin-off also not happening. Great job, ABC, writing off one of the best characters in SHIELD to give her a spin-off that's not going to happen) as I actually enjoyed Agent Carter a lot more than SHIELD. It was generally fun, even when there was serious stuff going down, whereas SHIELD has a tendency to be way too dark and dour.

I do agree the second season was uneven, but it was still enjoyable.

As far as how the SSR treating Peggy being "unrealistic", I think the show set it up pretty well. Those who actually served with her in the war knew what she was capable of, but to everyone else she was just "Captain America's girlfriend". Even today, women are sometimes looked down on as being less-capable and only being where they are due to favoritism. It was much worse back in the 40s.

Of the people she worked directly with, the Howling Commandos aren't actually part of SSR (Peggy got their assistance back in season 1 because of who she was. SSR couldn't have gotten them onboard otherwise.) Steve is "dead", Howard has returned to civilian life, and I'm sure Col. Phillips can't spend all his time telling people "No, she knows her stuff. Really." (and I'm sure Peggy wouldn't want him to.) and anyone who doesn't know the Colonel personally would probably chalk it off as the brass doing a favor for "Cap's girl".


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither should particularly bother anyone at this point, especially if you can get through scenes like this without wincing, but it is a legitimate comment on how easily writing can sometimes dip into glorifying a character rather than actually characterizing them.

Seriously?

That was twenty YEARS ago.

If you have to reach back that far for an example, maybe it isn't much of a 'problem'.

It's more that it's easier to find clips from a 20 year old show than one that just aired.


All I care about is hopefully they'll get it back on Netflix and we'll have what we want.

Maybe.


Sundakan wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Neither should particularly bother anyone at this point, especially if you can get through scenes like this without wincing, but it is a legitimate comment on how easily writing can sometimes dip into glorifying a character rather than actually characterizing them.

Seriously?

That was twenty YEARS ago.

If you have to reach back that far for an example, maybe it isn't much of a 'problem'.

It's more that it's easier to find clips from a 20 year old show than one that just aired.

Are there no available clips for things only a few years old?


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I'm kinda amazed at how many people in this thread really look at this show and think that how men treated Peggy in terms of the sexism that she faced was too much or over the top or was done just to setup a girl power angle to show how great Peggy was.

It's as if people here really thought that white guys in the 20's 30's and 40's were more magnanimous than they really were? As if they, for the most part wouldn't have treated Peggy and every other woman or non white person like that. And it's not that I'm saying that white d00ds were all evil but that's just how it was back then. Women had JUST gotten the right to vote a little more than 20 years prior to this story. Sexism and attitudes wouldn't have magically changed or disappeared during that time. Hell it's 70 years later and some of those attitudes STILL havent changed.

I love Captain America: The First Avenger but the inclusion of Gabe Jones as part of the unit stuck in my craw. The army wasn't integrated until after WWII in 1948. I know that he was part of the Howling Commandos in the comics but that bothered me a little bit too.

I liked that Peggy's world was reflective of the real America / world at the time and that world wasn't as accessable for a woman or a person of color.

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.


Grey Lensman wrote:


Are there no available clips for things only a few years old?

I'm sure there are some, but the above posted scene is NOTORIOUS, whereas the ones from Carter would be A.) From a less popular show that is B.) Newer and C.) Not intrinsically tied into the first appearance of a main cast member.

Very hard to locate.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

It was? It's not like they're rare on TV any more. Even looking at other comic book based shows we have Supergirl x James Olsen, Diggle x Lyla (Arrow) and Iris x Eddie (Flash).

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ShinHakkaider wrote:

I'm kinda amazed at how many people in this thread really look at this show and think that how men treated Peggy in terms of the sexism that she faced was too much or over the top or was done just to setup a girl power angle to show how great Peggy was.

It's as if people here really thought that white guys in the 20's 30's and 40's were more magnanimous than they really were? As if they, for the most part wouldn't have treated Peggy and every other woman or non white person like that. And it's not that I'm saying that white d00ds were all evil but that's just how it was back then. Women had JUST gotten the right to vote a little more than 20 years prior to this story. Sexism and attitudes wouldn't have magically changed or disappeared during that time. Hell it's 70 years later and some of those attitudes STILL havent changed.

I don't see anyone claiming that the sexism wasn't realistic, but rather that it detracted from the show. While a show about a working woman overcoming sexism is all well and good, it's a tone mismatch with the rest of the MCU, which has otherwise avoided pretty much any significant social issues.

ShinHakkaider wrote:
I love Captain America: The First Avenger but the inclusion of Gabe Jones as part of the unit stuck in my craw. The army wasn't integrated until after WWII in 1948. I know that he was part of the Howling Commandos in the comics but that bothered me a little bit too.

The cast of Hamilton would like a word with you.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

I liked that Peggy's world was reflective of the real America / world at the time and that world wasn't as accessable for a woman or a person of color.

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

Wait, which is it? Do you like that it accurately portrayed period attitudes with regards to sexism, or do you like that it ignored period attitudes with regards to racism?

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ShinHakkaider wrote:

I'm kinda amazed at how many people in this thread really look at this show and think that how men treated Peggy in terms of the sexism that she faced was too much or over the top or was done just to setup a girl power angle to show how great Peggy was.

It's as if people here really thought that white guys in the 20's 30's and 40's were more magnanimous than they really were? As if they, for the most part wouldn't have treated Peggy and every other woman or non white person like that. And it's not that I'm saying that white d00ds were all evil but that's just how it was back then. Women had JUST gotten the right to vote a little more than 20 years prior to this story. Sexism and attitudes wouldn't have magically changed or disappeared during that time. Hell it's 70 years later and some of those attitudes STILL havent changed.

I love Captain America: The First Avenger but the inclusion of Gabe Jones as part of the unit stuck in my craw. The army wasn't integrated until after WWII in 1948. I know that he was part of the Howling Commandos in the comics but that bothered me a little bit too.

I liked that Peggy's world was reflective of the real America / world at the time and that world wasn't as accessable for a woman or a person of color.

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

My interpretation of those reactions:

Put quite simply, seeing the more unsavory elements of history reenacted--even in a pulpy fictional format--can make people feel uncomfortable. It's hard to go, "Oh s&%&, my father/grandfather (or mother/grandmother) etc. acted like that." Seeing it occur, again even in a fantastic narrative, pushes one to see that was--or even still is, even if less common or muted or perhaps not happening in a given individual's personal sphere--reality.

And we don't like to be made uncomfortable when looking for happyfuntimes tv, especially. However, ironically, often very well written tales, although not always happyfuntimes, do a good job of making us uncomfortable at times as part of the experience of the drama.

How comfortable you are with yourself and your own personal history or self-regard impacts how well you can handle that discomfort.

In one scenario, you can can allow yourself to be challenged by this discomfort and accept the realities being depicted amongst the pulpy fiction for what they are. You can perhaps realize you've learned something important about history and/or yourself, and you can trust in yourself that you treat people better than that... and are certainly confident the show is not judging YOU or anything connected to your life. At this point, the depiction ceases to lead you to feel uncomfortable and you can get on with enjoying the historical story.

Or you can get stuck in a quagmire of discomfort, even feel "attacked" by something that is obviously not targeting you. Rather than allow it to help you be self-reflective and self-aware, or at the very least grateful you no longer live in such times, you push it away from yourself and complain about the show being badly written instead.


And on the flipside, having taken an intense liking for something often leads to overlooking its flaws, and feeling the need to defend it even where it's not warranted.

Fact of the matter is, some characters were not well written. In Howard Stark's case, it was an amusing sort of 2D character. In others...not so much.

Likewise with the occasional clunker of a line.

That doesn't mean the final product wasn't good, or the writers were incompetent. It means it wasn't perfect, and the flaws bothered some more than others.


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Sundakan wrote:

ShinHakkaider wrote:

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

It was? It's not like they're rare on TV any more. Even looking at other comic book based shows we have Supergirl x James Olsen, Diggle x Lyla (Arrow) and Iris x Eddie (Flash).

There's big difference between being in an interracial relationship with a black guy in present day (and there are STILL problems) and being in an interracial relationship with a black guy in the 1940's. They LITERALLY were still KILLING black men and boys for looking at white women sideways in parts of this country.


Right, but you said it was brave of THE SHOW to tease that relationship. It's not like the actors or crew were in any danger.


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RainyDayNinja wrote:


ShinHakkaider wrote:

I liked that Peggy's world was reflective of the real America / world at the time and that world wasn't as accessable for a woman or a person of color.

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

Wait, which is it? Do you like that it accurately portrayed period attitudes with regards to sexism, or do you like that it ignored period attitudes with regards to racism?

I liked that it accurately portrayed period attitudes with regards to sexism.

I don't think that it ignored period attitudes with regards to racism so I liked that too.
The relationship between Peggy Carter and Jason Wilkes was never fully realised which is why I said "hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy". DId they address the racism of the time in other ways? Absolutely. The fact that even though Jason was a brilliant scientist no other company would hire him because of his skin color except for Isodyne. Even small things that weren't put in your face like when Jason needed to meet Peggy in a public place he chose a black club for them to meet in as they probably could not have meet in a white club without a tremendous amount of scrutiny and attention.

Nice try though.


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Sundakan wrote:
Right, but you said it was brave of THE SHOW to tease that relationship. It's not like the actors or crew were in any danger.

You're either being very disingenuous or very naive. I'm not sure which. So I'm gonna choose to bow out of any further conversation with you here.

Sorry to have addressed you at all. Good Day.


Sundakan wrote:

And on the flipside, having taken an intense liking for something often leads to overlooking its flaws, and feeling the need to defend it even where it's not warranted.

Fact of the matter is, some characters were not well written. In Howard Stark's case, it was an amusing sort of 2D character. In others...not so much.

Likewise with the occasional clunker of a line.

That doesn't mean the final product wasn't good, or the writers were incompetent. It means it wasn't perfect, and the flaws bothered some more than others.

Why does being a 2D character make you not well written? Especially for a tertiary character.


Well, since he shrugged off the responsibility, anyone want to try and decipher what he meant for me?


Caineach wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

And on the flipside, having taken an intense liking for something often leads to overlooking its flaws, and feeling the need to defend it even where it's not warranted.

Fact of the matter is, some characters were not well written. In Howard Stark's case, it was an amusing sort of 2D character. In others...not so much.

Likewise with the occasional clunker of a line.

That doesn't mean the final product wasn't good, or the writers were incompetent. It means it wasn't perfect, and the flaws bothered some more than others.

Why does being a 2D character make you not well written? Especially for a tertiary character.

It doesn't, in itself necessarily. That's why I'm fine with Stark.

Captain whatsisface though I take issue with. He has one character trait and it's "I'm a dick". And yet the show spends waaay too much time following him.


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Sundakan wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

And on the flipside, having taken an intense liking for something often leads to overlooking its flaws, and feeling the need to defend it even where it's not warranted.

Fact of the matter is, some characters were not well written. In Howard Stark's case, it was an amusing sort of 2D character. In others...not so much.

Likewise with the occasional clunker of a line.

That doesn't mean the final product wasn't good, or the writers were incompetent. It means it wasn't perfect, and the flaws bothered some more than others.

Why does being a 2D character make you not well written? Especially for a tertiary character.

It doesn't, in itself necessarily. That's why I'm fine with Stark.

Captain whatsisface though I take issue with. He has one character trait and it's "I'm a dick". And yet the show spends waaay too much time following him.

I think you watched a completely different show than I did.


A good chunk of the second season followed him and Red Forman in their diabolical schemes, so maybe so.

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Which one is Captain Whatsisface? The one who became part of the Atlas Club?


Misroi wrote:
Which one is Captain Whatsisface? The one who became part of the Atlas Club?

I think he is referring to that guy, but its hard to tell since he had a full developmental arc through 2 seasons and he is referring to him as a 1 dimensional character

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The first season of Agent Carter was well done. It did a good job of setting up the early history of the Marvel Universe, and in particular tied the first Captain America movie in more tightly to the rest of the MCU.

Moreover, it had a coherent plot, with a good theme and solid character growth.

The second season was much weaker. A friend mentioned that if you watched the second season without having watched the first season, or the Captain America movie, the plot was in disarray and the setting was odd.

Why was Dottie even in this story-arc? What did she do? Her story had no resolution, and her abilities fluctuated wildly. And why was she trying to obtain the Hydra pin?

The plot flailed around several of the characters without giving them an opportunity to grow or deepen. This should have been a world-level threat, but the SSR had a team of, what, 5 agents looking into it? The villain was supposed to be smarter than everybody else and vastly more powerful, but she more or less defeated herself.

Why was this story set in California? The change required a half-dozen established characters to relocate from New York, while introducing a half-dozen more characters none of whom had any real roots in the setting.

And, it didn't connect well with the rest of the MCU. This darkforce dimension is new stuff, and I hope to see it again in Agents of SHIELD or somewhere. It would have played better, I think, if it had been connected to, say, Gravitron.

In other words, it wasn't strong enough to sustain the franchise.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Chris Mortika wrote:

The first season of Agent Carter was well done. It did a good job of setting up the early history of the Marvel Universe, and in particular tied the first Captain America movie in more tightly to the rest of the MCU.

Moreover, it had a coherent plot, with a good theme and solid character growth.

The second season was much weaker. A friend mentioned that if you watched the second season without having watched the first season, or the Captain America movie, the plot was in disarray and the setting was odd.

There was a story there, but the second season writing meandered to the point that the story was lost. Also, the "need" to shoehorn in a romance did not help.

Chris Mortika wrote:
Why was this story set in California?

Likewise, if you are going to go to Californa, you want to really make use of 1940s Hollywood, which they didn't.

Chris Mortika wrote:
The change required a half-dozen established characters to relocate from New York, while introducing a half-dozen more characters none of whom had any real roots in the setting.

It also strained what was clearly a limited budget.

Chris Mortika wrote:
And, it didn't connect well with the rest of the MCU. This darkforce dimension is new stuff, and I hope to see it again in Agents of SHIELD or somewhere. It would have played better, I think, if it had been connected to, say, Gravitron.

I think it was supposed to preview the "Dark Dimension" from Dr. Strange.

Chris Mortika wrote:
In other words, it wasn't strong enough to sustain the franchise.

Sadly true.


Caineach wrote:
Misroi wrote:
Which one is Captain Whatsisface? The one who became part of the Atlas Club?
I think he is referring to that guy, but its hard to tell since he had a full developmental arc through 2 seasons and he is referring to him as a 1 dimensional character

What developmental arc?

He went from "Dick war hero" to "Dick who was a coward all along" to "Cowardly prick who is also ambitious beyond his means" and finally "Cowardly prick who throws in with the winning side (that just happens to be the good guys)".

That's a pitiful arc.


ShinHakkaider wrote:

I love Captain America: The First Avenger but the inclusion of Gabe Jones as part of the unit stuck in my craw. The army wasn't integrated until after WWII in 1948. I know that he was part of the Howling Commandos in the comics but that bothered me a little bit too.

He was in the unit because Cap wanted the surviviors he rescued from Hydra to be his unit. Had he taken the men the Colonel wanted to give him, it would have been a "correct" unit for the time.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Sundakan wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:


Are there no available clips for things only a few years old?

I'm sure there are some, but the above posted scene is NOTORIOUS, whereas the ones from Carter would be A.) From a less popular show that is B.) Newer and C.) Not intrinsically tied into the first appearance of a main cast member.

Very hard to locate.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

It was? It's not like they're rare on TV any more. Even looking at other comic book based shows we have Supergirl x James Olsen, Diggle x Lyla (Arrow) and Iris x Eddie (Flash).

You really seem to not grasp the difference of the era Agent Carter takes place in. In the realm of the story, it's a much bigger deal.


Mark Thomas 66 wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

I will miss this show and I'll put this out there: I thought that AGENT CARTER was hella brave for even TEASING the idea of an interracial relationship with a black guy. Didnt think it was very realistic but it sure as hell was brave.

It was? It's not like they're rare on TV any more. Even looking at other comic book based shows we have Supergirl x James Olsen, Diggle x Lyla (Arrow) and Iris x Eddie (Flash).
You really seem to not grasp the difference of the era Agent Carter takes place in. In the realm of the story, it's a much bigger deal.

But it's not a brave thing for the show to do, because the show is being made now. In the context of the time it's set it would have been a huge deal. In the context of making the show today, there's nothing especially brave about it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what ShinHakkaider meant.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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It's a brave thing because there will be those "purists" who lash out that that, wasn't acceptable then and shouldn't have been portrayed as such. It establishes another level of the character's strength that she is not only moral and upstanding, but willing to fly in the face of unjust cultural norms.

It's a step the show would lose nothing from avoiding, but gain much from presenting, even as simply a possibility and valid option. It says a lot that the woman who fell in love with Captain America, could also have feelings for a black man in that era, and have no qualms about it whatsoever.

It also makes a statement about what it truly means that Peggy is a good person.

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