When will Rogue Class Features Be Updated?


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Goblin Squad Member

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Several alpha builds ago the Skirmisher based skills were moved from causing flat footed condition to distress condition. However, the Rogue Class Features (ie Scout, Cuthtroat, etc) remain enhancing effectiveness only when the flat footed condition exists.

When will the Rogue Role be updated to reflect the changes?

Goblin Squad Member

And the new stuff promised ... like ... seven updates ago, making the Rogue a bit more... well rogueish...

Goblin Squad Member

Agreed. I am also not thrilled that my stealth 49 with scout equipped allows me to get a whopping 10meters closer to my guildmate with no additional ranks of perception at all before he sees my silhouette and icon in the minimap. I understand the no invis idea but if that is the return of my investment what is the point of the skill at all? Not expecting melee range but I should be able to get significantly closer before being detected I think. Especially with a difference of almost 40 skill points in the opposing skills.

Goblin Squad Member

Do not forget that most skills max out at 200 (trained) and then another 100 through other means like bonuses on equipment. In this regard there has to be a rather gradual scale, starting small.

However if Stealth follows the same curve, it seems that this only gets usefull when you reach very high levels, which makes the skill pretty useless for a long time, and for anyone that decides not to go all the way.

10 meters does not sound that bad though, should give you a small jump on people already. Not with me though, with my perception at 70.


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Bluddwolf wrote:

Several alpha builds ago the Skirmisher based skills were moved from causing flat footed condition to distress condition. However, the Rogue Class Features (ie Scout, Cuthtroat, etc) remain enhancing effectiveness only when the flat footed condition exists.

When will the Rogue Role be updated to reflect the changes?

This. They will always remain enhancing effectiveness versus flat-footed; but the features are supposed to give the Rogue the benefits of having a flat-footed target when the conditions set by their feature are met. Without the Features working properly, "Rogues" are just lightblade fighters in puny armor.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

Several alpha builds ago the Skirmisher based skills were moved from causing flat footed condition to distress condition. However, the Rogue Class Features (ie Scout, Cuthtroat, etc) remain enhancing effectiveness only when the flat footed condition exists.

When will the Rogue Role be updated to reflect the changes?

This. They will always remain enhancing effectiveness versus flat-footed; but the features are supposed to give the Rogue the benefits of having a flat-footed target when the conditions set by their feature are met. Without the Features working properly, "Rogues" are just lightblade fighters in puny armor.

I'm not sure I follow??

Scout, Opportunist and Cutthroat needs to bestow their benefits on the condition of "Distressed" and not "Flatfooted", since the changes of the skills related to Short Bows and Light Blades were moved from Flatfooted to Distressed.

In its current state the Rogue Class features grant no bonus.

Goblin Squad Member

There was a mention somewhere that Flatfoot should be put on everyone at the opening of combat (or something like that) but "they" haven't got around to that yet.... probably something the elusive advanced AI are supposed to fix....

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Scout, Opportunist and Cutthroat needs to bestow their benefits on the condition of "Distressed" and not "Flatfooted", since the changes of the skills related to Short Bows and Light Blades were moved from Flatfooted to Distressed.

Rogues are not intended to trigger on Distressed.

All of the Attacks that apply Distressed were temporarily changed to apply Flat-Footed to get players accustomed to exploiting Conditions.

It's the same for all the Roles. Wizards had a temporary benefit of being able to use Downburst on Opportunity, but now they have to get their target Unbalanced instead.


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Ok, so first off, Scout is an armor feat, not a feature feat. The features are Cut-throat , Opportunist, and Dare-devil.

Cut-throat: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Untargetted (that means while you are not targeted by your target, you get sneak attack against them)

Opportunist: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Opportunity (that is, while THEY have opportunity, you get sneak attack against them)

Daredevil: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Opportunity to Self (that is, while YOU have opportunity, you get sneak attack against them)

For all of the secondary conditions for sneak attack, when that condition is met, you treat your target as being Flat-Footed. This means that any attack you have that triggers off of Flat-Footed, especially including your Rogue Reactives, triggers when ever the secondary condition is met for your feature. So running around with a Shortbow and Daredevil spamming Quick Shot and Distracting Shot with Bleeding Attack and Slow Reactions slotted never looked so good!

The attacks that were switched over to triggering off of Distressed and applying Distressed are working correctly. For the Rogue, nothing needs to change there. What needs to change is the Features need to be fully implemented so the Rogue can start doing their Rogue things without having to pop Feint every 6 seconds.

Does that help?

EDIT: Nihimon ninja'd me but I did it better!

Goblin Squad Member

@Sspitfire

You're correct, I wrote Scout instead of Dare Devil, confused an armor for a role.

If the sneak attack causes flat footed, why do I no longer see the flat footed condition icon? Instead I see the Distressed icon.

I also see a marked lower occurrence of critical hits than I used to. That is one if the reasons I believe the Rogue Features are no longer synced up with the attacks, as they once were.

My thinking is, an Exploit ability creates the opportunity for the next attack to take advantage (higher crit possibility) of that condition. But, if your exploit abilities are not matched with the correct skills you don't get the advantages of the exploited condition.

The Role Features should create exploitable conditions that the attack feats can then take advantage of. This no longer seems to be the case for the Rogue. I can not speak to the other roles, I don't really play them that much.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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sspitfire1 wrote:

Cut-throat: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Untargetted (that means while you are not targeted by your target, you get sneak attack against them)

Opportunist: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Opportunity (that is, while THEY have opportunity, you get sneak attack against them)

Daredevil: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Opportunity to Self (that is, while YOU have opportunity, you get sneak attack against them)
...
What needs to change is the Features need to be fully implemented so the Rogue can start doing their Rogue things without having to pop Feint every 6 seconds.

In other words, the feature feats don't actually do what those descriptions say they do? Is part of it implemented? Is the not-yet-implemented part coming soon?

Side note: Having the text on a feat claim it does something when it doesn't actually do that thing yet is pretty terrible for new players, who don't know any better than to trust what they read. If it's going to be a while before those descriptions are true, please edit the descriptions to say "Does X now. Will do Y soon."

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
sspitfire1 wrote:
please edit the descriptions to say "Does X now. Will do Y soon."

This needs to be done through the entire UI or come up with a way for us to SEE when stuff is active or not between equipment and feats. Checking spreadsheets works but it sucks. A highlight or coloring of active keywords would be MUCH better.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
sspitfire1 wrote:

Cut-throat: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Untargetted (that means while you are not targeted by your target, you get sneak attack against them)

Opportunist: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Opportunity (that is, while THEY have opportunity, you get sneak attack against them)

Daredevil: Sneak attack on Flat-footed AND Sneak Attack on Opportunity to Self (that is, while YOU have opportunity, you get sneak attack against them)
...
What needs to change is the Features need to be fully implemented so the Rogue can start doing their Rogue things without having to pop Feint every 6 seconds.

In other words, the feature feats don't actually do what those descriptions say they do? Is part of it implemented? Is the not-yet-implemented part coming soon?

Side note: Having the text on a feat claim it does something when it doesn't actually do that thing yet is pretty terrible for new players, who don't know any better than to trust what they read. If it's going to be a while before those descriptions are true, please edit the descriptions to say "Does X now. Will do Y soon."

Karlbob has hit upon my point, perhaps more directly in pointing out what the problem is. I'm asking for a time table on the solution, if there will be one.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Jakaal wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
please edit the descriptions to say "Does X now. Will do Y soon."
This needs to be done through the entire UI or come up with a way for us to SEE when stuff is active or not between equipment and feats. Checking spreadsheets works but it sucks. A highlight or coloring of active keywords would be MUCH better.

That, too. Right now, for rogue feats, it's not just a matter of knowing whether it will be applied based on your equipped gear. Some of the things in the rogue feature feat descriptions simply don't exist in the game yet.


Bluddwolf, my understanding of the features is that they are not meant to apply flatfooted to the target, but rather simply have you treat the target as if it were flatfooted when the Feature-specific condition is met. So you wouldn't necessarily see a flag if it were working. Rogue Features are unique in this way, though. All of the other Role Features just provide normal benefits like bonuses to specific things. Having you treat the target as flatfooted while you are provoking, for example, is a bit more coding (that desperately needs to be done, in my opinion).

Also, you might be seeing fewer critical hits now since your attacks went down since Alpha and you are (possibly) no longer using a T2 weapon?

At any rate, if Stephen could comment on Rogue Features and their current and intended mechanics, I think that would clear up a lot of confusion.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:

... so the Rogue can start doing their Rogue things without having to pop Feint every 6 seconds.

KarlBob points at Feint, and says "This is my beeest frieeeeend." (It's a movie reference, but I forget which movie.)

At least, it's my best friend when I'm using my rapier. When I'm using my short bow (waits for laughter to die down) I don't really have a best friend.


KarlBob wrote:
When I'm using my short bow (waits for laughter to die down) I don't really have a best friend.

I have recently been using the shortbow on two of my toons to earn the subterfuge point. It totally rocks for clearing lowlevel mobs without having to do staff-cheese in heavy armor. I'll wager it will do very nicely in group PvP too. So no laughter here!

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah it fires VERY fast, has a very low stamina cost and does decent damage. nothing to laugh at.

Goblin Squad Member

Of course the short bow isn't your best friend- it's your LITTLE friend. (As in, "say hello to my")

Goblin Squad Member

Jakaal wrote:
Yeah it fires VERY fast, has a very low stamina cost and does decent damage. nothing to laugh at.

And it's one feat that gives it and advantage when compared to Long Bow, does not work as described.... Run and Shoot??!

However I must say, GW has cut down on the animation rooting, and it is not nearly as bad as it was in alpha. If we could only pivot, that would be an added plus.

Once ammunition is added, I will expect they keep to their statements that the rooting will be removed.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Although you can't pivot with the keyboard, you can rotate the camera view with the mouse while rooted.

Goblin Squad Member

True but if you use the keyboard for movement and the mouse to look, when the root lifts it does strange things as the camera starts to swing around and so does your character. It's not ideal.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Jakaal wrote:
True but if you use the keyboard for movement and the mouse to look, when the root lifts it does strange things as the camera starts to swing around and so does your character. It's not ideal.

I agree that it's not ideal. It's very clunky, but it's better than shooting blind (which is what I was doing before I realized I could follow my target with the mouse).

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
For all of the secondary conditions for sneak attack, when that condition is met, you treat your target as being Flat-Footed. This means that any attack you have that triggers off of Flat-Footed, especially including your Rogue Reactives, triggers when ever the secondary condition is met for your feature. So running around with a Shortbow and Daredevil spamming Quick Shot and Distracting Shot with Bleeding Attack and Slow Reactions slotted never looked so good!

I have not seen a target gain the flat-footed condition by triggering a secondary condition like you stated.

In your example you would be getting the sneak attack damage because you are putting opportunity on yourself but that isn't causing the target to be flat-footed and allowing other abilities that work off of flat-footed to trigger.

Flat-footed has an actual icon of its own that pops up. Have you seen your secondary condition actually cause flat-footed? From the decription it shouldn't be.

Goblin Squad Member

You won't see Flat-footed on the target because it isn't there. The rogue feature allows his and only his abilities to treat the target AS THOUGH AS it had Flat-footed condition. Therefor preventing other people from possibly benefiting from it. So the condition is not there, just the rogue getting the benefit of it under the conditions specified

Goblin Squad Member

the target doesn't gain flat-footed, it's just treated as having it b/c of the feature if the condition of the feature is met. or that is what it's supposed to do.

Edit: Ninja-ed by 5 sec...

Goblin Squad Member

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Ravenlute wrote:
I have not seen a target gain the flat-footed condition by triggering a secondary condition like you stated.

There's an important distinction in what Sspitfire said.

When a Rogue's Sneak Attack condition triggers, he treats the target as if it were Flat-Footed. The target does not actually gain the Flat-Footed condition.

Unfortunately, that tech is not yet working. The real test, once it's implemented, will be whether the Rogue's Attack Feats that trigger off of Flat-Footed light up, even when other Characters don't see a Flat-Footed icon on the target.


Nihimon wrote:
The real test, once it's implemented, will be whether the Rogue's Attack Feats that trigger off of Flat-Footed light up, even when other Characters don't see a Flat-Footed icon on the target.

This or, more simply, if the rogue's reactives are going off when the target does not have an obvious flat-footed flag.

...
Bludd, one area you and I will always disagree on is ranged rooting. I hope it stays in in some form or another. Even with ammunition. I'll add, I find it humorous when players complain they can't win because they can't kite (not that you are, but others do). That, to me, is a sign that rooting is working by making the game more challenging and forcing players out of their comfort zones. It is also a sign of a noob player who still has a lot to learn- at which point I am happy to teach them.

Goblin Squad Member

I think the shortbow also has less delay than longbow when swapping weapons to melee.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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One of the small side points in this discussion is that it's less than ideal for the game to claim that something is happening when the tech to make it happen hasn't been implemented. It would be a good idea to remove those sections of the feat descriptions until they actually work.

During Alpha, it wasn't a big deal. In EE, I think players might have a stronger expectation that the description they read in game accurately represents the current state of the game.

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