My issue with melee


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Solo combat using melee is fine. The mob targets you and you fight it.

In a group it becomes stupid. If you do not have agro it is very likely that you end up chasing after the mob being kited by a teammate. I have to sprint in order to catch up to the mob so that I can land a single hit. Then the mob gets slightly out of range so I have to sprint to catch up to it again so I can get my next hit. In that short time any effect on the mob like Distressed that might trigger something on a secondary attack has worn off.

All in all I end up constantly sprinting after mobs just to get in 1 or 2 hits before it drops from arrows or spells. Trying to use something to stall the mob doesn't work either. It stops it sure but as soon as you get the next attack ready to go it's off and running again.

Not cool.

Goblin Squad Member

This seems to be a facet of the way your groups are doing combat - kiting is currently VERY effective, and you aren't wrong for doing it, but the other melee needing to run to catch up is a natural consequence of that choice.

Goblin Squad Member

Before Bluddworth's recent experience with falling through the world after using Balestra, I would have recommended trying one of the damage/gap closers if your group continues using the kiting technique despite your wishes. Even if you don't close the distance due to uneven ground it would still take damage. And if it did get you there, you may be able to get in a normal melee range attack before its gone, then rinse and repeat. But, until GW is able to clarify whether there is a link to charge-type attacks and the bug, you might want to be cautious.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't mind chasing after the mob, I've done it before in other games. It's the combination of sprint turning off, queueing up an attack that isn't instant and debilitating effects that don't last long enough.

In tabletop it would be possible to use my round to move up and attack a target every time. That only works because combat is segmented. In PFO they are segmenting attacks by using queues and cooldowns but movement isn't segmented so it throws everything out of whack.

Goblin Squad Member

I have found lunge with longsword works OK as does shield charge (though shield charge occasionally had me charge in the direction I faced rather than towards the target). The separate charge utility I gave up on.

Goblin Squad Member

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I had the Charge utility which worked half the time in alpha but doesn't seem to at all. After I heard about the charge attacks being fubar I took it off my hotbar just in case.

All melee weapons should be viable, not just a select few.

Really, I'm seeing this melee problem being very similar to the problem Clerics are having with their Touch spells.


Melee being more difficult in group combat is nothing new to PFO, it's an issue with most MMO's from what I've seen. Hence, ranged attack is so much more effective when the enemy's movement is erratic or unpredictable.

The clunkiness of PFO's combat system notwithstanding (it definitely needs work) if you're going to play melee you either need to control the fight and keep agro, or you need to get better at chasing mobs/players around, and/or employing Slow debuffs.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I'm kind of surprised this has come up.

Doc is right - do any MMOs (or Pathfinder, by the way) behave differently? Just because you want to hit it in melee doesn't mean it's forced to fight you.

Goblin Squad Member

I quite enjoy melee, to be honest. And I like healing and buffing with my Focus... does that make me weird? ;P

I use Longsword and use Lunge (like Edam), and have never had a problem with it. It doesn't always move my character to the target (8/10 times it will) but it always does damage.

Also, being a melee, you have to work together differently with your group: Make sure you tell them to let you take aggro first. That way all of the mobs (or most) should group on you and you can unload an AoE while your team-mates blast them from afar.

The best group set-up right now is:

One melee (helps if they multi-class Cleric)
Two or three ranged

The other day we were plowing through big camps with two yellows with no problems (albeit after we nailed down the above strategy).

Goblin Squad Member

There's two ways I use melee in group PvE: as a ranged-killer, and to pull individuals off the tank.

If tasked as a ranged-killer, when the tank pulls agro I sprint into the mob's camp. All of the melee mobs have bolted out towards the tank. The archers and spellcaster lag behind, shooting at the tank (who should keep moving to always break range) and those casters and shooters present sweet, sweet opportunity. Stab. Stab. Stab. Report in voice chat that all of the casters are dead.

If there are no ranged mobs, then I jump into the mass of mobs chasing the tank, matching vector. Pick one. Make an opportunity attack, maybe two before the mob reacts and turns on me, then fight the mob 1:1, dragging it out of the mob-pack. Even as a lightweight freeholder, there's lots of stuff I can take 1:1 that I'd never deal with in a mob.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Hopefully, as we move up the chain beyond +0 armor, and as the mob AI improves, kiting will become one option among several, instead of the default strategy.

Goblin Squad Member

Yrme wrote:

There's two ways I use melee in group PvE: as a ranged-killer, and to pull individuals off the tank.

If tasked as a ranged-killer, when the tank pulls agro I sprint into the mob's camp. All of the melee mobs have bolted out towards the tank. The archers and spellcaster lag behind, shooting at the tank (who should keep moving to always break range) and those casters and shooters present sweet, sweet opportunity. Stab. Stab. Stab. Report in voice chat that all of the casters are dead.

If there are no ranged mobs, then I jump into the mass of mobs chasing the tank, matching vector. Pick one. Make an opportunity attack, maybe two before the mob reacts and turns on me, then fight the mob 1:1, dragging it out of the mob-pack. Even as a lightweight freeholder, there's lots of stuff I can take 1:1 that I'd never deal with in a mob.

This is a very effective strategy in many MMOs, which is why I dearly hope the AI in PFO is ultimately designed to basically say "to hell with that armored bruiser over there--let's go kill these squishies first!" There is nothing "intelligent" about chasing a tank--would you leave your casters unguarded if you were in their shoes (or whatever mobs wear on their feet/hooves/paws/tentacles)?

Goblin Squad Member

I do a lot of what Yrme does (not built to tank) but there are still times I'm chasing down moving targets that have no desire to change agro. Besides, it shouldn't require a group to use specific tactics to allow me to hit something.

I'll keep experimenting but there is just something off about the melee combat.

Goblin Squad Member

with the clunkiness of combat, it just shows more in melee. It's a little more forgiving as Ranged. As of right now, there's not really a reason NOT to use range unless your just going for your achievement points.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tigari wrote:
As of right now, there's not really a reason NOT to use range unless your just going for your achievement points.

Yeah, and that's a problem. Luckily EE has just started and there is time to tweak it.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree, I really want to use my daggers+1 on other things then Goblins and bandits

Goblin Squad Member

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I like DDO combat about 100x more then what we have here. If gw can manage to make it smoother and intuitive DDO combat would only be 10x better. Not trying to derail just giving my honest input. Oh yeah and theres that GRASS


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Pyro,

I use to think your grass posts were a bit obnoxious, but your consistency now has me becoming one of your biggest fans.

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol Tigari wrote:
with the clunkiness of combat, it just shows more in melee. It's a little more forgiving as Ranged. As of right now, there's not really a reason NOT to use range unless your just going for your achievement points.

Actually sprinting up to low level mobs and casting wraith cry or doing a whirlwind is a very effective way of killing 100s of mobs an hour and acquiring lots of T1 mats and gear.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
Gol Tigari wrote:
with the clunkiness of combat, it just shows more in melee. It's a little more forgiving as Ranged. As of right now, there's not really a reason NOT to use range unless your just going for your achievement points.
Actually sprinting up to low level mobs and casting wraith cry or doing a whirlwind is a very effective way of killing 100s of mobs an hour and acquiring lots of T1 mats and gear.

Solo, yes. In a group, please check to make sure you don't have party members in range before hitting your favorite solo attacks.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:

Pyro,

I use to think your grass posts were a bit obnoxious, but your consistency now has me becoming one of your biggest fans.

I go back-and-forth. Sometimes it's amusing, sometimes I just want to throttle....Never mind.

Goblin Squad Member

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You know what that mini on your avatar could use? Some grass.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

This does sound like most every other MMO. Melee is about agro management to keep the Mob in place by the Tank. I don't see much yet on managing agro after pure damage, so melee in a group is going to be tricky.

This can be a problem mostly with PUGs since it takes a while to dial in the tactics. There isn't any default set expectations. This is sort of a good thing. I don't want to be told that I am playing my character wrong. Though I suspect there will be that from time to time.

Goblin Squad Member

Andrew Harasty wrote:
Melee is about agro management to keep the Mob in place by the Tank...

It's probably worth pointing out this old thread:

There's very good argument to be made that the problem with the Trinity is the Tank. And the Tank works because of Hate. Hate was an interesting mechanic, but by metagaming it the Tank became possible, and once the Tank became possible, the Trinity was the only rational outcome.

WoW has gone down a rabbit hole of feedback due to the Tank from which they cannot easily extract themselves. But Pathfinder Online does not have to follow them.

We're going to focus design effort on the Hate mechanic and on other ways that PvE content interacts with players with an eye towards avoiding a feedback loop that would trap us in the Trinity.

RyanD

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Sounds good. I would like to see how that evolves. I expect over time other combat roles will evolve with various character types being able to fulfill those roles.

Another plus of the current system is that it is fairly easy to train and swap equipment to take on a different role as needed.

Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:
You know what that mini on your avatar could use? Some grass.

If they did that it would be funny as hell.

Goblin Squad Member

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Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:

Pyro,

I use to think your grass posts were a bit obnoxious, but your consistency now has me becoming one of your biggest fans.

I go back-and-forth. Sometimes it's amusing, sometimes I just want to throttle....Never mind.

Someday in 10 years when they finally do it you will all be like holy F that dude was right.

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