Gestalt: Inspired Bladebound?


Advice


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So, I've been offered an opportunity to try out Gestalt and have settled on Magus (Bladbound) / Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade). Was thinking Hexcaster would be a nice addition as well but I don't really know. Looking for a little feedback on where I might go with this

Tiefling (Daemon-Spawn)

Str 10
Dex 18 (+2)
Con 12
Wis 12 (-2, +2 Feat)
Int 16 (+2)
Cha 14
25 - points

feats:
InBld 1st - Weapon Finesse (w/ Rapiers)
InBld 1st - Weapon Focus (w/ Rapiers)
1st - Fiendish Heritage (Daemon-spawn, +2 racial bonus Wisdom OR Once per day you can reroll one die. You must take the result of this second roll OR You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for the following round)
3rd - (Edit: Eldritch Heritage (Arcane, Bond on Black Blade), Not happening unless I fit in Skill focus)
Swb 4th - Fencing Grace
Mag 5th - Combat Reflexes?
5th - (Edit: Improved Arcane Bond... 3rd party so likely a no-go)


Personally I'd go regular Tiefling and just eat the -1 Panache for the +1 to Will saves/Perception/other stuff. Int is one of your primary stats, so you'll have all the panache you need anyway.

What kind of game is this going to be? For example: are you planning on playing out to level 20? If so, I would honestly move away from the Bladebound. Bladebound shines in games where your wealth is limited, like PFS, as it allows you to direct your spending elsewhere. But if you're doing a game where money isn't a major concern, then the Black Blade falls off because it loses out on some pretty cool enhancements for just being a straight +5 weapon with situational abilities.

You don't qualify for Eldritch Heritage since you need a Skill Focus in a Knowledge skill for it. Improved Arcane Bond is 3rd party-- I presume you've gotten that by your GM? Especially since that feat is... absurdly powerful.


kestral287 wrote:
Personally I'd go regular Tiefling and just eat the -1 Panache for the +1 to Will saves/Perception/other stuff. Int is one of your primary stats, so you'll have all the panache you need anyway.

The -2 Wis is offset by the +2 Wis I rolled on the chart, so that's not much of an issue.

kestral287 wrote:
You don't qualify for Eldritch Heritage since you need a Skill Focus in a Knowledge skill for it.

Completely forgot about that... Draft one was a Half-Elf so it slipped my mind.

kestral287 wrote:
Improved Arcane Bond is 3rd party-- I presume you've gotten that by your GM? Especially since that feat is... absurdly powerful.

Craaaaaaaaaap... Knew it looked too good. I could talk it up with it being a Gestalt game and all, more so if the other make something absurd, but I'm not putting money on it...


kestral287 wrote:
What kind of game is this going to be? For example: are you planning on playing out to level 20? If so, I would honestly move away from the Bladebound. Bladebound shines in games where your wealth is limited, like PFS, as it allows you to direct your spending elsewhere. But if you're doing a game where money isn't a major concern, then the Black Blade falls off because it loses out on some pretty cool enhancements for just being a straight +5 weapon with situational abilities.

Not 100% sure. Nearly certain it's going to be an Adventure Path. Likely Kingmaker I think. Not sure.

Grand Lodge

As an inspired blade, you'll want to maximize how many criticals you get so you can keep your Panache up through the day, so Improved Critical and Critical Focus should be on your list at higher levels. BAB +8 needed for Improved Critical, and BAB +9 needed for Critical Focus.


Ms. Pleiades wrote:
As an inspired blade, you'll want to maximize how many criticals you get so you can keep your Panache up through the day, so Improved Critical and Critical Focus should be on your list at higher levels. BAB +8 needed for Improved Critical, and BAB +9 needed for Critical Focus.

You get Improved Critical automatically at 5

Rapier Training (Ex)
At 5th level, an inspired blade gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage rolls with rapiers. While wielding a rapier, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +5 on damage rolls at 17th level).

Grand Lodge

Well, cut that down to Critical Focus then.

Does your Tiefling have Prehensile Tail? If so, you could grab Grasping Tail, then invest in Disarming feats. Disarm, then grab the weapon with your tail so the enemy can't pick it back up.


Ms. Pleiades wrote:
Does your Tiefling have Prehensile Tail? If so, you could grab Grasping Tail, then invest in Disarming feats. Disarm, then grab the weapon with your tail so the enemy can't pick it back up.

Not getting any use from Fiendish Sorcery so likely... but that's a lot of feat investment... Agile Maneuvers, Imp. Disarm... not to mention it's only good vs weapon users. Fun idea though!

Grand Lodge

Ah, right, dexterity-based. Regardless, tieflings have a few really nifty racial feats, so I'd say have some fun with it, you're getting almost all the essentials from the Gestalt, and Arcane Strike would eat into your already present swift actions. Fiend Sight taken twice nets you the See In Darkness ability, low light vision and Darkvision out to 120 feat. Armor of the Pit will get you +2 Natural Armor. Amulets of Natural Armor provide Enhancement bonuses to natural armor, so I'm fairly certain they'd stack.

"My armor class is 'Stop! Hammer Time!'"


Ask your GM if he thinks Grasping Tail lets you hold Rods. If so, it's a worthwhile investment anyway.

On the Wis thing: even with the +2 Wis from Fiendish Heritage, I would take another +1 on the Will save, Perception, et al. over +1 Panache in a heartbeat. Unless you have something other than Panache riding on your charisma? If you're expected to be the party wand-monkey I could see it I suppose (at least, assuming your trait slots are full... Pragmatic Activator is a thing).

Though honestly I'd drop Cha down to 10 for either more Con or more Int either way.

If you really want to spam crits, the Kensai completely obviates the need for Critical Focus by adding Int to crit confirmation rolls. AC will go down a bit in the early levels, but wearing a haramaki combined with Canny Defense means you're down only one AC compared to Studded Leather or two compared to a Chain Shirt, and by level three you'd equal either one. The haramaki can be enchanted to maintain parity going forward. That said, Kensai does give up some awesome tricks like Spell Recall and loses a spell per level. But it is an option.

Speaking of AC: I like Armor of the Pits. A feat for +2 natural armor seems like a solid trade to me, especially in the early game.


kestral287 wrote:

Ask your GM if he thinks Grasping Tail lets you hold Rods. If so, it's a worthwhile investment anyway.

On the Wis thing: even with the +2 Wis from Fiendish Heritage, I would take another +1 on the Will save, Perception, et al. over +1 Panache in a heartbeat. Unless you have something other than Panache riding on your charisma? If you're expected to be the party wand-monkey I could see it I suppose (at least, assuming your trait slots are full... Pragmatic Activator is a thing).

Though honestly I'd drop Cha down to 10 for either more Con or more Int either way.

If you really want to spam crits, the Kensai completely obviates the need for Critical Focus by adding Int to crit confirmation rolls. AC will go down a bit in the early levels, but wearing a haramaki combined with Canny Defense means you're down only one AC compared to Studded Leather or two compared to a Chain Shirt, and by level three you'd equal either one. The haramaki can be enchanted to maintain parity going forward. That said, Kensai does give up some awesome tricks like Spell Recall and loses a spell per level. But it is an option.

Speaking of AC: I like Armor of the Pits. A feat for +2 natural armor seems like a solid trade to me, especially in the early game.

I do like the idea of doing sneaky things with my tail. I'll have to see where he falls on this before I make any decisions.

The idea for keeping a little bit in CHA was mostly to make SOME use from Charmed Life... but it seems completely cutting out yet ANOTHER Immediate action would be a net positive.


Charmed Life is much less important for you than it is for most builds. You have three good saves already. And I'd take a +1 to arguably the most important save, every time you need it, over a +1 to any save as an immediate action a few times per day.

On Grasping Tail and rods, I do believe there's a post from James Jacobs floating around saying that he believes the feat lets you do that, but rods are still kind of big so it's debatable. My Tiefling uses her tail for holding wands though.


Yeah... cutting out CHA completely seems to be the best course or action.

Tiefling

Str 10
Dex 18 (+2)
Con 12
Wis 14
Int 17 (+2)
Cha 09 (-2)
25 - points

Deathwatch at-will seems more for than Darkness 1/day... too bad it overlaps with Prehensile Tail... oh well.
Prehensile Tail in place of Fiendish Sorcery

feats:
InBld 1st - Weapon Finesse (w/ Rapiers)
InBld 1st - Weapon Focus (w/ Rapiers)
1st - Fencing Grace
3rd - Skill Focus: Knowledge ???
Swb 4th - Pirahna Strike?
Mag 5th - Combat Reflexes?
5th - Eldritch Heritage (Arcane, Bond on Black Blade)
7th - Improved Arcane Bond? (if allowed... carving out the SR might make it more palatable)

How to fit in Armor of the Pit & Grasping Tail... If I take Armor of the Pit their is NO reason not to take the Scaled Skin racial trait... Hmmmm... I LIKE the idea of the Bonded Blackblade, and that's usually enough... but 2 feats (3 if I can sell the 3rd party one) is a lot...


Other way around on Armor of the Pit.

Fiendish Resistance + Armor of the Pit: Resistance 5 to three elements, +2 natural armor

Scaled Skin + Armor of the Pit: Resistance 5 to three elements, +1 natural armor.

I wouldn't take Piranha Strike. The lost to-hit is really not worthwhile while it comes time to parry and to hit with Spellstrike attacks.

Incidentally: are you going to try to work with one of the standard Magus tricks of Frostbite/Enforcer/Rime Spell or Shocking Grasp/Intensified Spell?


kestral287 wrote:

Other way around on Armor of the Pit.

Fiendish Resistance + Armor of the Pit: Resistance 5 to three elements, +2 natural armor

Scaled Skin + Armor of the Pit: Resistance 5 to three elements, +1 natural armor.

I wouldn't take Piranha Strike. The lost to-hit is really not worthwhile while it comes time to parry and to hit with Spellstrike attacks.

Incidentally: are you going to try to work with one of the standard Magus tricks of Frostbite/Enforcer/Rime Spell or Shocking Grasp/Intensified Spell?

Missed the "instead of" line... that's pretty damn lame...

I've heard of the Shocking Grasp one... let me look up the other (we're going to pretend this was a conversation where I actually stopped to look this up, kay?) Wow... that's a lot of debuff stacking... fatigued, entangled AND shaken/frightened... yesh


Can't shake the feeling that you'd be better off with Arcanist (Blade Adept) instead of Magus here.


LoneKnave wrote:
Can't shake the feeling that you'd be better off with Arcanist (Blade Adept) instead of Magus here.

Arcanist doesn't get Spell Combat. Pretty significant loss, that.


Why have charisma at all? Give yourself another 5 build points by dropping it all the way, raise your CON score (as a martial frontliner, you should do this anyway), and maybe try to get that INT score a little bit higher.


Eh, I'd drop Cha down to 8 but I can see not wanting to go clear down to the bottom. I mean, it's a viable option, but full-out min-maxing can backfire.

The Frostbite build can do a lot, but you have to keep in mind the drawbacks: all your damage is nonlethal and it's rather feat-intensive. Barring some very odd builds I will /always/ suggest putting Lineage/Spellhunter on Shocking Grasp and taking Intensify Spell at 5th or 7th, but Frostbite is a different cup of tea altogether. If you think it's a viable strategy, by all means go for it. But it does have its drawbacks.

Grand Lodge

BTW, cutting CHA eliminates Eldritch Heritage.

Since you need the crits, why not look into Kensai as well, the 9th level bonuses can be extra deadly. It also removes the need for combat reflexes.

Final note, if going the disarming route, do it with the rapier and you do not need the agile manuevers. As long as you are using a finessable weapon, you may use your dex instead of str.


Dafydd wrote:

BTW, cutting CHA eliminates Eldritch Heritage.

Since you need the crits, why not look into Kensai as well, the 9th level bonuses can be extra deadly. It also removes the need for combat reflexes.

Final note, if going the disarming route, do it with the rapier and you do not need the agile manuevers. As long as you are using a finessable weapon, you may use your dex instead of str.

Every time I change something I forget to cross reference if it effected my prereqs... Thank you though.

Thanks for the heads up on Rapier, with Inspired Blade it's basically the only weapon I can use well so it's a great option... and since you freed me up 3 feats...


Really though, if the GM doesn't allow Improved Arcane Bond, cutting Heritage is no great loss.

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