5 Foot Step & Bladed Dash - Can You Do It?


Rules Questions


8 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can you take a 5 foot step with the Bladed Dash spell?


yes, why do you think you couldn't?

Dark Archive

Matt2VK wrote:
Can you take a 5 foot step with the Bladed Dash spell?

There are many possible combinations. You could:

- Move, and cast
- Cast, and move
- Spell Combat
- 5 foot before casting
- 5 foot after casting

It's a fun spell.

Sovereign Court

You can normally take a five foot step and spell combat, however:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Take-5-Foot-Step wrote:
you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

Makes me think this won't work with bladed dash in particular. The only argument that could be made is that you didn't move, the spell moved you. However, the way Bladed Dash is worded:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash wrote:
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet

Makes me think they can't be combined.

The more ambiguous case is a spell like dimension door. Does teleporting count as moving yourself?


GralphidB said wrote:

You can normally take a five foot step and spell combat, however:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Take-5-Foot-Step wrote:

you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

Makes me think this won't work with bladed dash in particular. The only argument that could be made is that you didn't move, the spell moved you. However, the way Bladed Dash is worded:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash wrote:

When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet

Makes me think they can't be combined.

This is the problem we had with the spell. At moment, been ruling you can't the one time it's come up. Just wasn't sure and wanted opinions on the this rule.


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By strict RAW it looks like you can't, as a GM, I would allow it under the Casting a Spell rules (and with Dimension Door)... Assuming non-PFS.


I went ahead and FAQed this. Even though the RAW suggests you can't, the intention is questionable. "Move" is one of those ambiguous words that can be used to mean different things. I'd especially like clarification of 5fs and teleports.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You can take a 5' step before casting the spell, but not after. Strict RAW

Dark Archive

No. That is not "strict RAW".

Movement is part of the spell effect.

You can absolutely do whatever movement you want, including a 5 foot step, before or after casting this spell.

Edit: also, we just had this discussion in November, and in that thread we received confirmation that Bladed Dash is no different from any other spell in how it works.


Yes, you can 5ft step and then cast bladed dash. Otherwise, someone bull-rushing (enter other means of non-player enabled movement) you on a new count of initiative and moving you will prevent you from 5ft stepping on your next action that term.

The 5ft step if limited to player enacted movement.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Shane LeRose wrote:
You can take a 5' step before casting the spell, but not after. Strict RAW

+1

I agree and I'll run all games this way.

But this sounds like something you will see table variance, because some people may not consider the movement of the spell movement.

Dark Archive

James, can you 5 foot step after casting Bull's Strength?

Can you 5 foot step after casting Teleport?

If you answered "Yes" to either (and hopefully to both), then you have to answer the same for Bladed Dash.

Read Owen's post in the link I provided above. Bladed Dash should be handled no different from any other spell.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I've no idea why you think Bull's Strength blocks 5 ft step. Teleport also isn't movement, you don't move during Teleport.

I read your link, and it isn't covering the question of 5 ft step after Spell Combat -> Bladed Dash -> Move 30 ft -> finish full Attack.

No where in that thread do they cover taking a 5 ft step after. The only mention of the 5 ft step is an attempt to block the movement of the spell (Bladed Dash) when used in Spell Combat.

My position:

  • 5 ft after Bull's Strength - Check
  • 5 ft after Teleport - Check
  • Magus Spell Combat to cast Bladed Dash to move 30 ft then Full Attack - Check
  • Bladed Dash to move 30 ft then 5 ft step - Negative.

My position clear now? ;-)
I'm happy my position is RAW. You read the rules differently, that is fine. Both are valid interpretations.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Risner wrote:
Shane LeRose wrote:
You can take a 5' step before casting the spell, but not after. Strict RAW

+1

I agree and I'll run all games this way.

But this sounds like something you will see table variance, because some people may not consider the movement of the spell movement.

?

You are trying to say that you can move 5' because you don't have already move, but that then you can cast the spell and move?
RAW you can't. The 5'step limitation is retroactive.

@Brevick Axeflail
In the link you provided Owen is saying something completely different that don't touch the 5' step at all.

The spell say:

d20SRD wrote:


When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction, momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you.

5' step.

PRD wrote:

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.

If you perform any kind of movement in a round, you can't take a 5' step.

It is not relevant if you are walking, flying swimming, burrowing or whatever, if it is defined as a movement performed by you, you can't take a 5' step.

@DeathlessOne
Being moved by bull rush isn't a movement you perform, it is some other guy that is pushing you.


5' step -> cast bladed dash -> move 0' in a strait line -> make an attack at any point during that 0' -> full attack. :)


Diego Rossi wrote:

@DeathlessOne

Being moved by bull rush isn't a movement you perform, it is some other guy that is pushing you.

That can go both ways. Being moved by Bladed Dash isn't a movement you perform, it is some other guy the effect of the spell moving you.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Either you can 5ft step in the same round as casting bladed dash, or you can't. It doesn't matter when the 5ft step comes. Just as taking a 5ft step at the start of your turn prevents you from using a move action to move afterwards, if you say bladed dash can't be used before a 5ft step, neither can it be used after. I rule that 5ft steps do not prevent the use of the spell.

Dark Archive

James Risner wrote:
I read your link, and it isn't covering the question of 5 ft step after Bladed Dash

Then you missed the point of his post.

He was explaining the concept of specific versus general.

There are a lot of things in the game that can't generally be combined, but specific exceptions exist.

Bladed Dash already has quite a few of those exceptions built into it, including movement as part of the spell effect.

If we went by your argument, that it counted as the character's move action for the round, then all you could do in one round would be cast this spell, since you would have already moved upon its completion, and you'd have no more actions left.

Given the explanation that Bladed Dash is just a spell, and the 30' of movement is one of its spell effects, it should have no bearing on your ability to take a 5' step.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DeathlessOne wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

@DeathlessOne

Being moved by bull rush isn't a movement you perform, it is some other guy that is pushing you.
That can go both ways. Being moved by Bladed Dash isn't a movement you perform, it is some other guy the effect of the spell moving you.

The spell say: "you immediately move up to 30 feet!, not "you are moved". Bull rush say: "If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet."

So, rule wise, bladed dash is a movement you perform. Being pushed by someone bull rushing you isn't a movement you perform.


Brevick Axeflail wrote:
James Risner wrote:
I read your link, and it isn't covering the question of 5 ft step after Bladed Dash

Then you missed the point of his post.

He was explaining the concept of specific versus general.

There are a lot of things in the game that can't generally be combined, but specific exceptions exist.

Bladed Dash already has quite a few of those exceptions built into it, including movement as part of the spell effect.

If we went by your argument, that it counted as the character's move action for the round, then all you could do in one round would be cast this spell, since you would have already moved upon its completion, and you'd have no more actions left.

Given the explanation that Bladed Dash is just a spell, and the 30' of movement is one of its spell effects, it should have no bearing on your ability to take a 5' step.

Your logic doesn't track there. A 5' Step can't be used if a character moves, not if a character expends their move action to move-- two very different things. So no part of Risner's logic suggests that Bladed Dash takes up a move action.

Also, couldn't the concept of specific vs. general be applied the other way here? In general, you can take a 5' step and cast a spell. Specifically, Bladed Dash allows the character to move as part of its effect, and this movement could be argued to disallow a 5' step.

Owen's post was in response to a very different set of questions than this. Trying to apply it universally as "all spells are the same" is a blatantly misconstrued reading of what was said.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Brevick Axeflail wrote:
James Risner wrote:
I read your link, and it isn't covering the question of 5 ft step after Bladed Dash
Then you missed the point of his post.

He was covering "can you do it in Spell Combat".

The point of this thread is unrelated. The rule whether or not you can take a 5 ft step isn't broken by the spell. The spell specifically moves you. The 5 ft step is only allowed when you haven't moved.


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Diego Rossi wrote:

The spell say: "you immediately move up to 30 feet!, not "you are moved". Bull rush say: "If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet."

So, rule wise, bladed dash is a movement you perform. Being pushed by someone bull rushing you isn't a movement you perform.

The use of the word perform confuses the situation. While correct in context of "performing a move action", it is not correct when referring to movement that does not take place as a specific action.

The spell is still moving the player, otherwise, the player wouldn't be able to move without it after taking a 5ft step. Players usually perform their movement either during a MOVE ACTION or some other FULL ROUND ACTION that includes movement. The exception is spells or abilities like this.

As a DM, I'd allow (and have actually allowed) a player to make use of a 5ft step and casting bladed dash. Its a spell. Spells defy the laws of physics all the time. It's not hurting anything.

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