Many Forms revelation, saving throws


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Hi,

There seems to be two or three different ways to work out saving throws for special attack forms gained from the Dark Tapestry mystery Many Forms revelation. Which takes precedence?

The Many Forms revelation gives the ability to use various Polymorph effects, as a supernatural ability.

The rules for Polymorph (CRB pp211-212) state that the saving throw DC for any abilities gained from Polymorph magic is the same as the DC for the spell used to change form. But the rules for the Oracle class (APG p45) say that the DC to save against a Mystery Revelation is 10+ 1/2 the Oracle's level + Oracle's CHA modifier.

The specific wording for Many Forms is

Many Forms wrote:
Su: As a standard action, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium humanoid, as the alter self spell. At 7th level, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal, as beast shape I. At 11th level, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium magical beast, as beast shape III. At 15th level, you can assume a variety of forms, as greater polymorph. You can use this ability for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. You must be at least 3rd level to select this revelation.

So, for example, I use Many Forms to change into a Dragon. Is the saving throw against my breath weapon:

A: 10 + 1/2 my Oracle level + my CHA modifier (as per Mystery rules)
B: 17 + my CHA modifier (as per Polymorph rules, using Greater Polymorph because that is the equivalent effect of the Many Forms revelation when you can use it to assume Dragon forms)
C: 10 + 1/2 my Hit Dice + my CON modifier, because that's how you normally calculate the DC for a breath weapon.

I know the guideline is "specific trumps general" but I am having difficulty deciding which of A,B, or C is the "specific" case here. Am I "specifically" using a breath weapon, "specifically" using a Mystery revelation, or "specifically" using a polymorph effect?

Thanks in advance for any guidance offered.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Specific counters general, so use the oracle rules.


Wow. That was one of the least helpful correct answers I've ever seen someone give.

But yes, it would be Option A. Option C is ruled out entirely, because you're using a polymorph effect to transform. Option B would normally be the save DC of the spell, but in this case you replace that DC with 10+1/2 Level+Cha, just like you would if the revelation let you cast fireball.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quenly wrote:
But the rules for the Oracle class (APG p45) say that the DC to save against a Mystery Revelation is 10+ 1/2 the Oracle's level + Oracle's CHA modifier.

Use these rules.

Silver Crusade

Thanks folks. And happy new year!

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