Simple fixes to WoTR and Mythic that will keep this AP going to the end. (No Spoilers)


Wrath of the Righteous

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My group is nearing the kick off of Wrath of the Righteous. We are near the end of an incredible Rise of the Runelords game and will be jumping right into Wrath after that.

We have briefly discussed the potential issues that have arisen in games that others have posted here and made a gentleman's agreement. We have at least 4 players, possibly 5 and we have agreed to not do anything to intentionally try to game or break the system. That said, we will still be making strong choices for our characters (melee's taking power attack and such) which make obvious sense.

I have read much of what I can on these boards while avoiding anything labeled as a spoiler. I have read what I can of threads by magnuskn, Seannoss, Tangent101, NobodysHome, Aldarionn, and many others who have given meaningful time to these boards. In reading all of these things I have come to one conclusion. Things aren't perfect but people are passionate about this topic.

I think the passion is because when we play these games we aspire to make our characters like Hercules, Thor, Robin Hood, Gandolf, The Knights of the Round Table and so many other classic heroes. Mythic adventures was supposed to be the answer to those desires. Or at least we hoped it was.

Now, I have not played WotR yet but I am chomping at the bit for it. It is the setting I have been waiting for. Waiting for probably about 20 years of gaming. I am going to get to play my half angelic (Aasimar) Paladin who is going to make even demons know fear. I want to do all of this while my whole group has fun. The DM included, and without breaking the system or making the game unplayable.

I have compiled a list of things I have read or ideas I have had that may fix the proclaimed problems in this AP and Mythic Adventures over all.

I want to give credit where credit is due and some of these ideas have been taken directly from suggestions listed by the people I listed above. If I missed your name I am sorry. I am not trying to take any credit here I just want to have my chance to play this AP the way I have been hoping to. So here goes.

Critical Hits: At my table we use the critical hit and fumble decks. My suggestion here is to only multiply the dice rolled by the critical multiplier, not the entirety of the damage. I believe it was Tangent101 I took this suggestion from.

Mythic Power: Mythic power is regained at a rate of 1 per day, 1 per level (character level or mythic tier gained), and 1 at any point in which a character does something "epic". This could be increased to 1D4 per each event.

Mythic Vital Strike: Take out the multiplier completely. Instead you gain a damage bonus to each dice rolled equal to the number of feats in the Vital Strike chain you have taken. Example: You have Vital Strike, improved vital strike and mythic vital strike (3 feats). Each dice you roll for damage will gain a bonus of 3 damage.

Wild Arcana and Inspired Spell and Channel Power: To gain the benefit of this ability you must expend a number of Mythic power points equal to the spell level you wish to cast. Thus a 5th level spell would take 5 Mythic Power points to cast. Alternately this could be 1 point for level 1-3 spells, 2 for level 4-6 spells and 3 points for level 7-9 spells.

Recuperation: You no longer need to rest for an hour to use this ability but activating it takes half of your remaining Mythic Power to do so. Rounded up. This is the only way a character will ever be that hero that fought all day and all night through constant battle to defend a wall or overcome a trial of endurance!

Power Attack and Deadly Aim: Power attack should be more damaging than deadly aim. I am sorry but archers already have enough advantages. Thus these feats should be left alone or... Take away the multiplication on critical hits for power attack and the ability to avoid the penalties but increase the bonus to 4. Or, take away the multipliers and penalties for power attack, leave the damage at 3 and do away with deadly aim all together.

Display of ... The bonus gained by using this ability is equal to your mythic tier. Not a flat 20. Or 2 times your mythic tier may be better.

I know I have not hit every factor that should be hit but I honestly feel like these changes are a good start. I would love it if the people who have spent much more time than me on this topic would take the time to chime in and post their opinions. I want to keep it civil and constructive. Please address the suggestions I have made and add your own.

I wanted to take the time to do this because I do not believe that the soul burden of making a game playable rests on the DM. It is the job of everyone at a table to make it fun for all who are taking their time to make that game happen.

Again, please no spoilers for Wrath of the Righteous. I have avoided reading nearly anything about the story and want to experience it for the first time at my table.

Thank you for taking the time to read. Oh, and if this thread has been started somewhere else and I just missed it please direct me to the right place so I can read what has been suggested there.

Merry Christmas to all!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Good luck!

I'd decide ahead of time what to do with extra actions and how they interact with full round actions, especially for martial types. Fleet charge, mythic haste and the tier initiative ability all give extra actions and should be spelled out ahead of time.


Thank you for posting Seannoss. What changes did you make? What do you think of my suggestions?

Dark Archive

Would you elaborate on your Power Attack / Deadly Aim changes? Thanks!


ckdragons wrote:
Would you elaborate on your Power Attack / Deadly Aim changes? Thanks!

Sorry for the confusion, that does look like ramblings upon a second read. Also, these are not my changes, I just wanted to be clear on that. I have gathered info from these boards and made my own suggestions as well but I am not the DM and he will of course have final say. I have only started this because I want to do anything I can to protect this upcoming game and make sure it is enjoyable for everyone at my table and is seen through to the conclusion.

As for Power attack and Deadly Aim.

The simplest solution is to do away with the multiplying on a critical hit. I honestly don't see an issue with the use of a mythic power point to avoid the penalty but I believe it has been suggested that be removed as well.

My initial thoughts are that Power attack should be more deadly than deadly aim. This is my opinion because there is already such a skew in power towards archery.

I hope this makes more sense.

Dark Archive

Yes, it does. Thank you. I like the idea that PA/DA doesn't multiply with critical damage, though it won't slow the melee vs. range power skew since character's won't crit that often.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My recommendation is tossing mythic out completely and going with daily replenishing hero points, but YMMV.


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So am I to believe that people are so disheartened with this AP along with Mythic that they have just tossed in the towel and said it is impossible to make work?

I appreciate all the opinions I have read here but I am excited about playing Mythic. I am looking for the simple fixes that can make it enjoyable for us all at my table.

Any constructive input at all?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

make em take the field of poppies abilities (stuff like Divine Source or something similar), have them alternate from taking mythic feats and regular feats, limit 3 buffs per person, a start

this AP more then any other requires a cooperative relationship between the GM and the Players, otherwise the players will be bored and the GM will be an Overstressed, Sleep Deprived, Coffee-Jacked Twitchy Lump in the corner, muttering "Foe-Biter! why did he/she take Foe-Biter!"


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Lincoln Cross wrote:

So am I to believe that people are so disheartened with this AP along with Mythic that they have just tossed in the towel and said it is impossible to make work?

I appreciate all the opinions I have read here but I am excited about playing Mythic. I am looking for the simple fixes that can make it enjoyable for us all at my table.

Any constructive input at all?

I think the difficulty is that there are at least several dozen posts from myself, Tangent101 (especially Tangent101), magnuskn, Seanoss, Captain Yesterday, Sebastian Hirsh, and others I'm sure I'm missing across at least half a dozen threads that say mostly the same things:


  • Mythic's emphasis on adding multipliers to crits is a HUGE culprit in the melee character's damage output. Your idea of dropping the multipliers on bonus damage is an excellent one.
  • The other "big one" for mythic melee characters is the Fleet Warrior/Sudden Strike/Haste combination, where your melee character now gets to move, do a full-round attack after moving, and gets not one but TWO extra attacks at full attack bonus. Ouch. I'd just prevent those from stacking; or at least not let Haste add to them.
  • For casters, the early tiers "only" completely rewrite their tactics. Suddenly every caster, spontaneous or prepared, has access to every spell in the book whenever they need it. Your idea of making higher-level spells cost more surges is a good one. Balancing it will be an issue. And *because* casters suddenly have an "all spells" casting pool, you'll see your cleric turning your fighter into an unstoppable engine of destruction. I would make this one of the last nerfs, but limiting number of buffs on an individual would definitely help mitigate this.
  • Then come mythic spells that come with the dreaded, "Even if creatures make their save, they are hosed..." Check out mythic Holy Smite.
  • Once casters hit 6th tier, the wheels come off. They can pump their spells to ludicrous levels, and have them bypass all resistances and immunities. Get rid of the "bypassing" and your casters are still mythically versatile, but don't end combats when they sneeze.


NobodysHome wrote:
end combats when they sneeze.

Now this is what i'm talking about, somebody's eating Pork tonight!


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Mythically Big Bad Wolf wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
end combats when they sneeze.
Now this is what i'm talking about, somebody's eating Pork tonight!

You do realize that Paizo doesn't give you a prize for breaking 100 aliases, right?

Just ask Orthos...


Ok this is what I am looking for. Thank you.

Ill repeat, The idea of only multiplying the dice on critical hits was not mine. I believe it was Tangeant101's.

captain yesterday, that is exactly what my group has talked about. I don't feel that the burden of making this game fun, especially when there is the extra work of Mythic falls on the DM alone. That is why I started this thread. If there is a general consensus of the best ways to make Mythic more manageable and fun I want to do all I can to help implement that into our game so we all have fun and my DM isn't stressed.

I have read and realized myself early on that foe biter was an issue. The blanket change to critical hits would massively help with that I believe.

My group also had 1 tier of mythic for a short time in our current runelords game. We quickly saw the power of inspired spell and wild arcana. The cost is way to low to throw out extra high level spells at will.

Any thoughts on my other suggested changes? Would increasing the cost of recuperation by that amount help balance it?


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Here's some notes I've taken (I'm running, but we're still in book 1):

- Ability points from mythic are +1 to 2 different stats, rather than +2 to 1 stat. (Given that all but one of my characters is MAD, this will help their versatility while also cutting down the growth of their main stat).
- The entire clause about criticals is being removed from Mythic Power Attack (this also makes it simpler).
- Mythic Improved Critical is banned.
- Pretty much everything that just says "and I ignore damage reduction or energy resistance/immunity" is out; either entirely, or just that clause is out.
- I'm either killing foe-biter, or all legendary items entirely.
- Channel Power is out.
- I'm thinking about how to nerf Recuperation; raising the cost seems like a good idea.

I haven't figured out yet how I want to address extra actions, if at all.

On the plus side, my players are especially interested in the interesting abilities, moreso than the obvious better numbers ones (which, while powerful, are boring).

My main goal is to prevent this AP from being more rocket-tag than a normal AP would be; ideally I'd get it even lower, but that seems highly unlikely. (My long-term goal for ending rocket tag is a system I am oh-so-slowly designing.)


Interesting changes.

I like a lot of what you're doing. I wouldn't care for the removal of all legendary items though. They are to iconic. Thor ' s hammer, Excalibur. Many well known legendary items are weapons. I will be going with armor for my character. I like the feel of it and it's another effort to reduce rocket tag, both for and against.

I honestly think a highly increased cost for recuperation is the answer to that ability. Possibly a cost equal to your tier?


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Basically, I'm absolutely banning foe-biter. As far as legendary items in general, it really depends what the players are interested in. If nobody cares about a legendary item, then whatever, they're "banned". If someone wants a legendary, then I'll invest some time checking if anything else (aside from intelligent items, both because I don't want the burden of managing an intelligent item and because I don't want any "oh my armor casts a spell for me" extra action economy) needs to be blocked.

I would suggest using half character level instead of using tier; it's going to be roughly the same value, but it makes more sense; being higher tier shouldn't make it more expensive to recover non-mythic resources... but there being more of those non-mythic resources should. That's what I'll use, prospectively.

With the reduced mythic power regeneration you described, that might actually be too much; like any AP, there are periods when the PCs can sit back and relax for a week or two between trips, and periods where they'll be dealing with multiple encounters per day every day for a week. In the former case, they'll have full mythic power; in the latter case, they might run too short to be able to use Recuperation at all (and this is where it's most useful to use).


I think the suggestion of limiting critical hits as a whole eliminates the biggest issues with Foe Biter does it not? And then again some of the many other issues that cause rocket tag.

I like your suggestion of half character level instead of tier. Though you could be right, there could be times when this eliminates the use of that ability all together. Though there should be times when the characters feel strained and low on resources. I like the idea of recuperation because I like the image of the heroes working tirelessly day and night to defeat an unrelenting foe. The mechanics do need a tweak though.


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NobodysHome wrote:
Mythically Big Bad Wolf wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
end combats when they sneeze.
Now this is what i'm talking about, somebody's eating Pork tonight!

You do realize that Paizo doesn't give you a prize for breaking 100 aliases, right?

Just ask Orthos...

100! No no no, my plans are more long winded then 100 Mwahahahahahahahaha

but yes, i'm way behind Orthos, i just need to step the Inanity, and possibly cut back on Sleep


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
NobodysHome wrote:
I think the difficulty is that there are at least several dozen posts from myself, Tangent101 (especially Tangent101), magnuskn, Seanoss, Captain Yesterday, Sebastian Hirsh, and others I'm sure I'm missing across at least half a dozen threads that say mostly the same things...

I did get rather long-winded about this, didn't I? ^^;;

I guess it's just the latent game designer in me. Never did finish my own fantasy RPG system and it would have been far too complex, but working on that sort of thing did sort of give me an eye into mechanics. (Amusingly, now I'm contemplating making a tabletop wargame system so I have a use for my Warhammer 40K models, seeing I refused to buy the last two rules upgrades...)

I'm not the first to suggest multiplying just the damage dice for critical hits. Sadly, I can't tell you who I stole that idea from.

Okay. Here's my other suggestion (which I think I also stole from someone else, but I'm not entirely sure) for Mythic:

Replace all of the Mythic Rules with Regenerating Hero Points. The players start with 3 Hero Points plus one per Tier. These are already in the rules, are recommended by Paizo, and are not that difficult to understand. They also enhance survivability and create a heroic aspect to the game beyond the regular rules.

You can even include one or two little bits from the Mythic Rules, like the Tier 9 and 10 resurrection ability, but pretty much Hero Points alone should provide players with the power to overcome their foes. Further, the bonuses are static and reliable - +4 to a die roll if used after the roll was done, for instance. And an extra standard or move action, which is where they came up with the idea in Mythic. ;)


Just going with the idea that Mythic is a 'super hero' type of campaign....

Using ideas from Mutants and Masterminds (which handles superman vs. the hulk type battles well enough for the setting)...

One thing you could consider doing for *mythic* foes - is to actually use a mythic 'damage resistance' pool. (I have a lack of a better term to it).

That is when Mythic monster fights Mythic PC - instead of doing straight hp damage you first have to 'wear down' one side or the other.

Say 5-10 points of 'mythic resolve' - damage above a certain # would reduce this pool by 1 point. The number could be tailored to your particular group.

I'd give each player say 5 point - and the big guy 10-15 points - this type of system would let you setup a situation where your players could unleash - and you could get an epic running battle (where each side throws each other through skyscrapers - picks up cars and throws them at each other - etc.) and once worn down they go down in a blaze of glory.

The M&M system also allows a character to recover some 'health' by taking a turn resting. Really good superhero type fights are always cinematic - with the ground buckling and stuff being destroyed from the power unleashed - until one side wears the other down - it's just an idea really but I wonder if that type of system would have helped a bit with the big boss battles...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The problem is that players have Action Economy. Due to the large number of players, they can overwhelm a boss by sheer number of attacks. You end up either having a situation where the Boss has too many "Resolve Points" and then wipes the party because of the huge amount of damage he throws out, or the party wipes him without damage because of their action economy.


I think removing mythic all together in favor of only hero point feels like an over simplification. I don't mind the extra book work for the feel you get with mythic. Plus there are many very interesting choices that are not just about getting higher damage output.

What about a solution (with a gentleman's agreement) of only taking so many abilities that have a direct impact on offensive power? I know that is a little subjective but I am not trying to look for an overhaul of mythic here, just something to help my table (and others if we can) enjoy this AP.

The idea of mythic resolve is interesting but I think you get the same effect by changing a few things that help eliminate rocket tag.


I think the increased cost on Recuperation is a bit much. If you are worried about people spamming mythic points they are already going to not want to use it as written and if they are being conservative with the points it because they are not getting challenged anyways. Other then that its just a small advantage over a full rest(which is kinda canceled out by not gaining any mythic points and in fact losing one) that only makes a difference when they are on a really tight schedule, which I don't see as a big deal either and if you aren't on a tight schedule... they are holding themselves back by not taking a whole night to get back their MP as well. In fact my group is currently in the middle of a very long battle because we didn't want to do a full rest and then agroed the dungoen boss who we can barely even touch without mythic points(we have a plan or two in the works, so hopefully we won't need to run), him sending half of the dungoen at us all at once doesn't help either.

And 1 MP per spell level on the spont. casting ability seems like a bit much, you might as well tell the spell casters they aren't allow to use that ability at all(and the spell caster would actually be better off if you used the hero point system people are suggesting). The alternate one seems pretty reasonable though.

While I did suggest nerfing the mythic power attacks crit ability to my gm, nerfing crits below what crits normally do seems a bit much. I rather keep the damage and throw on more hp on mobs(we are going with mythic npcs have 3x hp which when combined with certain abilities and spells can make someone really hard to even make a dent in their hp).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

@Lincoln Cross: Here's the thing - simpler can be better. I have players who almost never use their Mythic abilities in the two games I have with Mythic. Part of this is because they're not that familiar with the rules (despite their being available online), but part is also because they already have a growing list of abilities available.

Let us take WotR. The heroes of the adventure start Book 2 at level 6 and Tier 1. They have a minimum of Mythic Surge, the Mythic "class" ability, modifications to a Mythic Feat, the Mythic Path ability, and the like to keep track of. Tier 2 then adds several new abilities to keep track of... at level 8 or so. But in those three levels (which accumulate fairly quickly) they also gain multiple regular class abilities.

By level 20 and Tier 10, even a straight Fighter class could have over a dozen Feats providing different abilities they need to keep track of, a dozen or more magic items to track, 10 Path abilities, multiple Mythic core abilities, five Mythic Feats, and either Champion or Guardian abilities to boot. If you have a spellcaster? Then you have dozens of spells, quite a few magic items, and more even before Mythic.

Simplifying Mythic by just having it be Hero Points? Makes things a hell of a lot easier for the players and helps the game run more smoothly, while at the same time eliminating the majority of what is out-and-out broken with Mythic, without players having to keep track of variant rules and the like that are patched into Mythic to make it usable.


I see what you're saying. The power is still there but much of the book keeping and rocket tag are removed that way. I agree it definitely solves many issues. The part I don't like is that it eliminates many of the qualitative options in an effort to reduce the quantitative ones. I don't care for loosing the flavor.


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Tangent101 wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
I think the difficulty is that there are at least several dozen posts from myself, Tangent101 (especially Tangent101), magnuskn, Seanoss, Captain Yesterday, Sebastian Hirsh, and others I'm sure I'm missing across at least half a dozen threads that say mostly the same things...
I did get rather long-winded about this, didn't I? ^^;;

OK. I phrased that poorly! What I *meant* was that you'd gone so far as to start your own thread on changes to mythic that would make the rules work. You spent a great deal of effort thinking through, "What would I want, and how do I implement that?"

It was intended to be a compliment, silly!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I was poking fun at myself. :) I do that. ;)


I am just starting to run the 3rd book with a great group of role players that are enjoying this adventure path immensely. There is one player though who, in every game I play with him, is consistently stronger than the rest of the party. He does 2-3 times the damage of the rest of the party combined. We have talked about this and he just does not understand that there is a problem because the rest of the party could be doing the same thing. But they aren't. Which is what I keep trying to explain. I think the mythic resolve system suggested sounds perfect. I am enjoying the mythic rules and what they add to the game. I think my players are as well. Mythic is a big thing and the PC's are just figuring that out. I don't want to tell this one person that he is the only one who can't use the mythic rules the way the rest of the party can. So far, the only other mechanical changes I have made are to beef up monster HP in general and have the enemies use decent tactics.

I suppose my point is that I am having more trouble balancing the party with itself rather than to the enemies. I don't think I do any more work tweaking the challenge because of the mythic rules than I would without them. I would recommend just playing through the adventure path and fix issues as they come up, rather than worrying about how to head them off. Your GM sounds like he knows what he is doing and is used to running a fun, balanced game. That said, your suggestions for tweaking Mythic Vital Strike and general crits sound entirely reasonable. My players have not tried to use Mythic Vital Strike or any crit enhancers so I cannot comment from experience on those. As to Inspired Spell and the like, I don't think it is that bad. The ability replaces the use of most wands and scrolls and gives the spells a bit of a boost. Kind of cool and not really overpowered (except in the hands of the player mentioned above who is restricted to one summon spell active at a time). Same with mythic points and Recuperation. My players have only had Recuperation for 1/2 a session (I forgot that they gained a tier a couple of sessions ago, whoops!) It will just mean that resting is not that big of a deal. I hope this helps and I can tell you that this game is one of the most fun I have ever been a part of, playing or running.

I will consult the rest of the group and see if we can come to a consensus on mythic resolve. Thank you Ckorik for the wonderful suggestion


Tangent101 wrote:
The problem is that players have Action Economy. Due to the large number of players, they can overwhelm a boss by sheer number of attacks. You end up either having a situation where the Boss has too many "Resolve Points" and then wipes the party because of the huge amount of damage he throws out, or the party wipes him without damage because of their action economy.

That's what resolve points would solve in a way though - say it take 500 damage to remove 1 resolve - that wouldn't mean 1000 takes 2 away - just that 500+ damage takes 1 away.

The entire idea would be that until your resolve are gone - you take no hp damage - it just does resolve - so you unleash massive nasty attacks and it takes a point away - the boss has limited action economy - so shouldn't be able to take away (5*4=20) resolve before the party can wipe out his... but it would setup a fight that lets the superheros (continuing the metaphor) take out a city block in the process of killing the bad guy.

Perhaps it wouldn't work - I don't know - I do know the system seems to work for actual super hero games - there is a tier system where if you take 1/3 of your 'resolve' you start to take penalties on your abilities until ultimately you fall over (knocked out) - taking a 'breather' lets you shake off the penalties but still have the damage.

It was just a thought - really the biggest complaint boils down to 'The players have abilities that let them throw nukes - and so do the monsters - but everyone is still paper thin on defense' - so no matter who goes first - the other side looses.

Players die - because taking a hit is death. Monster die much more - because as soon as someone has initiative the combat ends.

Nerfing most of the offensive abilities and logarithmic scaling feats are the biggest solution - and it's super math and DM intensive. The other solution would be to incorporate bigger defensive abilities - and that would take a lot of design work with room for error.

Take fleet warrior that is universally panned - it's essentially pounce - without charge. Add a charge requirement - and it's just pounce.

Here is a possible home rule - 1 mythic action per round - regardless of action type - that solves some of the move/attack problems - then you have to deal with mythic spells almost on a case by case basis - many of them make any non mythic encounter trivial. Mythic cloudkill can take out CR 20 encounters at level 10 for example (assuming the foe is non-mythic).

The 'any spell in the book' abilities could be nerfed to work like arcane bond for a big fix - it would screw over non-prepared casters though so I don't know how you'd fix that - perhaps let them keep a spellbook of 'usable' spells?

There is much work that would need to be done overall to make the system perfect - we are running with the understanding that anything abused or insane in practice will be removed (with the ability to swap out something else) so everything is on the table and all of us are aware of that. If your group can't handle that kind of thing I'd be very tepid about using the system at all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
NobodysHome wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
I think the difficulty is that there are at least several dozen posts from myself, Tangent101 (especially Tangent101), magnuskn, Seanoss, Captain Yesterday, Sebastian Hirsh, and others I'm sure I'm missing across at least half a dozen threads that say mostly the same things...
I did get rather long-winded about this, didn't I? ^^;;

OK. I phrased that poorly! What I *meant* was that you'd gone so far as to start your own thread on changes to mythic that would make the rules work. You spent a great deal of effort thinking through, "What would I want, and how do I implement that?"

It was intended to be a compliment, silly!

I think you both need to embrace the Smurfy side of life ;-)


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Tangent101 wrote:
The problem is that players have Action Economy. Due to the large number of players, they can overwhelm a boss by sheer number of attacks. {. . .}

I have heard this problem reported for APs other than WotR, and the solution reported for these is to add minions so that the enemies also have decent action economy.

As for the Mythic rules themselves, having actually looked at these on d20pfsrd.com, I am inclined to give the nod to the recommendation to dump them. In this thread Wiggz recommended (on page 1) to replace Mythic with Epic (that is, conventional PF levels >20, not WotC's own ill-conceived attempt at D&D 3.5 Epic rules, although this was less broken than Mythic). I would add that if you want Mythic flavor and can find some Mythic abilities that are not broken, you could rescue them as Epic feats.

Sovereign Court

Would removing mythic and having them become Gestalt at the end of book 1 instead make sense? And then just using epic rules if they go above 20th?


I know I hope my DM keeps mythic in the game as I am very excited about many of the abilities, as I think my whole group is. If just removing it works for some groups that is great though! I just love the idea that we truly get to be the heroes with these rules. I get the impression that only the truly epic bbegs will be able to act like our characters are just a nuisance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Here's the thing: You don't need gestalt characters. You don't need Mythic. WotR, after Book 2, is sufficiently underpowered that ordinary 15-point-build characters could effectively finish much of the campaign. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a group of min-max veteran players could with ordinary characters (10-point builds) and without Hero Points, Mythic, or even the artifacts mentioned in the back of the book, could in all likelihood defeat the AP as-written.

If your players are not min-maxers? Then a 25-point build would in all likelihood be sufficient to use regular Core Rules characters and prevail in the AP, especially if one is a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Demon) and a second is a Paladin. If they start having difficulties? Then giving them a couple of the multiple artifacts mentioned in the AP would beef them up. All without Mythic.


I believe you Tangent101. Though I am pretty sure we will be keeping it in and running with beefed up CR's.

Are there any other high trouble abilities or spells or items that we should be concerned about and think about addressing before we even start?


I don't believe him. Maybe super experienced optimizers could get through without mythic/hero points/whatever, but my group, while for the most part I'd like to think our characters aren't complete crap, we are only moderately optimize and we almost got wiped by a single opponent in book 2(and I'm 90% sure we only survived because GM fiat). We've upped our game since then, but we've still ran into some stuff that would have given us a lot of trouble without mythic(the current fight, at what I assume is the end of book 3 we are in, being a great example).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Have you read my previous comments?

For instance, my "replace Mythic with regenerating Hero Points that increase from a base of 3 Hero Points plus your Mythic Tier" suggestion?

My comments on a 10-point build without Hero Points was for a min/max super-optimizer experienced group. My comments on Paladins and Rangers was meant to show two classes that are able to easily prevail even without Mythic.

If your party consists of four players running Rogues, Monks, and the less optimal Prestige classes, then sure, Mythic may end up not being overpowered. But there are several threads on here showing players who end up trying to not-optimize their characters deliberately. Players who ended up asking "can I un-take this Mythic ability? It's overbalanced."

Try to wrap your mind around that: players asking to change a Mythic ability because it was disrupting the game too much. This should be a warning bell for you. Mythic is broken. Wrath of the Righteous is underpowered. Combined, the two end up with a campaign that will leave you fudging hit points constantly in order for foes to seem challenging - or a campaign where players get bored quickly because one player can take out a Demon Lord in one round of fighting. Demon Lords, which are in essence minor Gods.

If you don't consider that broken, then either you were one of those players who in the 1970s took out Legends and Lore and ran your high-level characters through it killing the Gods in each area, or you're the type that sees nothing wrong with using God Mode in Doom to play the game from the very start just for giggles.


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He ain't in book four yet, although book three should be the place where the problems are already obvious.


I dont think there is any PF AP that stands up to an optimized group, nor do I think there should be. WotR probably would have been better suited to a AoW level of difficulty, but I think the devs wanted to see how the rules worked in actual play, and setting the bar too high might alienate some of the players.

I want to run it, and I do want to have some of the mythic rules used. I was wavering on how to handle that, but I think I will let it depend on the group I run it for. I have quiet a decent list of players to call upon. If it is the better ones there will be little to no mythic powers on their side. If it is the "less capable" players then I will allow them some mythic powers, maybe up to tier 5. If that is not enough I will just tone down some of the encounters.


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I appreciate the thoughtfulness and willingness to make mythic work for WoTR.

Side comment, have the Legendary guys, like Jason, offered any insights on Mythic mechanics as they relate to what magnuskn and Tangent101 have spoken on?


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Actually, as a brief aside... I know that some of Paizo's employees have been running (or had, as they likely finished by now) WotR. I'm curious as to their experiences with the AP and with Mythic itself. And for that matter, what they did to try and keep things challenging... or if they ended up ending the game early because they just got tired of it.


Haven't seen anything from Paizo employees claiming to have run/ (or run in) WotR, just this post and this post in the other thread already referenced in here.


Elorebaen wrote:

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and willingness to make mythic work for WoTR.

Side comment, have the Legendary guys, like Jason, offered any insights on Mythic mechanics as they relate to what magnuskn and Tangent101 have spoken on?

Legendary is releasing 3 Mythic books (via a Kickstarter project) and has said they will be offering suggestions on how to fix some of the problems with Mythic Adventures in the new books. I am looking forward to seeing what they have to say.

From their Kickstarter site:

Creator Legendary Games on September 21
Yes, we'll be including a section on problematic rules and alternative solutions.


I'm not sure what the issue with mythic power points is. In my game we burn through them so fast you have to be careful or you run out. I mean you can spend alot in one round with a swift, move, free, immediate action that's 4 right there. If you start blowing 4 a round you run out really quick.


magnuskn wrote:
He ain't in book four yet, although book three should be the place where the problems are already obvious.

We just finished off book 5. Haven't had much problems yet. As the GM though I did boost a lot of the encounters as they seemed way underpowered for party 4 level 17 character with 8 mythic tiers. What's with CR 15 encounters? I mean that's easy for non mythic. They should be battling CR 20-24 as you add 1/2 their Tier to the party APL. So I boosted a lot of the encounters to that ranger and things have been great. Some of the encounters have been easy other much more challenging. In boosting the encounters I added mythic tiers to a lot bad guys and lots minions (CR:18-20). We've had few deaths in the game and many close fights.

I think book 3 things were way too easy as I was just getting used to mythic. Book 4 I experimented a bit adding templates. In book 5 I think I got it right so far. I give the players a chance to feel mythic just slaughtering bad guys but then tough fights come up.


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Oh, individual fights were okay in some cases. But the party never really was in any danger of getting killed. In the last module, we had one fight where four of six characters were down at the end of round one, but after the Cleric got his turn, they were up and running again like nothing had happened. Fight ended in round two.


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We're in book 3 right now, but I reworked some stuff to better fit my players' backgrounds and themes... They might be able to rescue Aroden himself if they defeat Deskari, but I digress.

After they one-rounded a CR 20 mythic annihilator robot (which I conveniently dropped upon them to show how broken mythic is) at level 10+3, I'm going to give my players "the talk" during our next session.

I really hope I'll finally be able to convince them and turn to regenerating hero points instead, else I foresee there being either cakewalk encounters or TPK-threatening encounters with no middle ground, depending on who wins initiative by book 4. I already have to massively adjust encounters, but I woud welcome some sort of uncertainty lasting more than "roll for initiative".

Characters would reach up to level 25-26, roughly gaining one extra level every two tiers but spreading them evenly. After level 20, I'll advise multiclassing, or use the "beyond 20th level" section. At least, PCs are gonig to make good use of their capstones during the full length of book 6!

Meanwhile, they'd get 3+"tier" hero points, regenerating 1/day, 1/level and 1/epic action (GM discretion). Thanks tangent!
Most "mythic" stuff can still be done with the "special" usage of hero points anyway, like ignoring 10 points of enemy fire resistance on a fireball with a concentration check (DC 20 + double spell level), but hero points are much more manageable and I can avoid the 500 damage thing or other mythic silliness.


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Technotrooper wrote:
Elorebaen wrote:

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and willingness to make mythic work for WoTR.

Side comment, have the Legendary guys, like Jason, offered any insights on Mythic mechanics as they relate to what magnuskn and Tangent101 have spoken on?

Legendary is releasing 3 Mythic books (via a Kickstarter project) and has said they will be offering suggestions on how to fix some of the problems with Mythic Adventures in the new books. I am looking forward to seeing what they have to say.

From their Kickstarter site:

Creator Legendary Games on September 21
Yes, we'll be including a section on problematic rules and alternative solutions.

Good to hear. I look forward to the suggestions. Thanks for the head's up!


I have not played WotR and only experienced 1 tier of Mythic through a portion of our Runelords game.

I just find it odd that I see so many people use the term broken for mythic though. I get the impression that using this word for mythic comes from thinking in non mythic ways. What I mean is mythic characters doing mythic things is not broken. The game, when you add mythic, is a different game. I think the characters are supposed to be blowing things up and doing world shattering things. Mythic puts the characters on another level.

Krinn, above said he threw a CR20 mythic enemy at his group. I believe the most important factor in combat is action economy. There are countless threads here about single BBEGs getting blown up and that is because of action economy, not mythic. Mythic is only going to expound on this.

All of that said I still believe that Mythic has some balancing issues that need to be address. Or rather, pathfinder in general needs to address the disparity between offense and defense.

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