Has anyone played a Bomber Rogue before? I'm curious as to how well it would work out.
Basically, the key points of this build would be:
Underground Chemist
Bomber
Bomber's Discovery
So, the idea behind this is quite simple, double-dipping Sneak Attack.
Bomber allows you to gain a number of bombs, similar to the Alchemist, equal to your Intelligence modifier, but they deal damage equal to your Sneak Attack (they don't gain Intelligence to damage however). Key point though, they are splash weapons.
Bomber's Discovery grants you a single Discovery that modifies a bomb. You can only take it once, however, so choose wisely.
Underground Chemist is the clincher though. Underground Chemist lets you sneak attack with splash weapons, and adds your Intelligence modifier to the damage of the splash weapon.
So, this means, that, as a 10th level Rogue, when you throw a bomb that deals 5d6+Int points of damage; if it's a sneak attack, it deals another 5d6 points of damage for a total of 10d6+Int points of damage.
Not a bad little blast for a Rogue eh?
Something that will come up and that is subject to GM variance, is whether or not the Sneak Attack damage is dealt to everyone in the area of effect. Underground Chemist's Precise Splash Weapons doesn't give us an answer, only saying that it must be directed at a creature, rather than a square. Splash weapons still do damage in an area, even if directed at a creature, however.
I'm inclined to say that all subjects in the AoE take sneak attack damage if they are subject to it, purely based off the rules. As a GM and a player, I really don't see a problem with a Rogue being capable of such an attack either. Unfortunately, said Bomber Rogue would never get Fast Bombs without taking Alchemist levels, so he's kind of in a '1-hit wonder' scenario.
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I'd say this would become really powerful if you could spend the money on a wand of greater invisibility, as you could deal double sneak damage to a clustered group of enemies all at once. However, I think you might be running into the issue of sneak attack only applying once per attack... the example of that is something like scorching ray for an Arcane Trickster... the sneak dice only applies to one of the rays fired with the spell. Therefore, I think most GMs would rule that the sneak damage only applies to the main target of the bomb, not the splashed creatures.
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Reading over everything...why not just play an Alchemist?
Bomber is giving you a number of bombs up to your Int mod, so anywhere between 2-4 really...that's not a lot at all. Alchemist gives that plus 1/2 level, so by the time you're doing 5d6, you'll have twice as many bombs.
Second, splash wouldn't most likely get sneak (not like it'd get a lot of great chances to) since splash isn't really your target, and sneak attack says it does extra damage to your target. It's debatable, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Next is how you plan on always being within 30 feet and getting sneak attack. I suppose you could flank with a gauntlet to threaten so you get it, but you're provoking with each attack. Other ways are smokestick + Goz mask, which is fine, but predictable. You can at least quick draw and drop smokesticks, which is nice.
After that, you've got only one bomb discovery, and those are NICE. I just really like them.
Finally, are 8 skill points a level and Rogue Talents worth a good fort save, Mutagen, and 6th level casting? It may be for concept, but you could play an Alchemist in the same way as a Rogue (I have, it's fun) so if you're willing to just play the part with an Alch, you'd have basically the same damage (actually more) after Fast Bombs came online as well as way better class features.
I want to like Underground Chemist and such, but it's literally half of an Alchemist, and that's not a great class.
Honestly? I would love to play an Alchemist. But it's an idea I came across while browsing talents for an NPC Rogue I built and thought it might be an interesting little power-up for the Rogue. Underground Chemist gives up very little for what it gets, and the Bomber talents are only 2 long, so you don't give up a lof for the ability to deliver 1 powerful shot on someone every so often.
I saw this the other day but my main problem is the lack of bombs.
You would lack serious staying power. I mean sure, for like one attack you might be able to get double sneak-attack damage thanks to a sneaky bomb...but that is maybe twice a day and you still have to set up the ranged sneak attack.
It just feels like we are investing a lot for not much in return.
I saw this the other day but my main problem is the lack of bombs.
You would lack serious staying power. I mean sure, for like one attack you might be able to get double sneak-attack damage thanks to a sneaky bomb...but that is maybe twice a day and you still have to set up the ranged sneak attack.
It just feels like we are investing a lot for not much in return.
Not every build needs to be appropriate for PCs, however. A 'bomber rogue' would make an interesting, and annoying Mook as they'd essentially get the equivalent of a Wand of Fireballs with 1 or 2 charges without detracting from their limited funds, allowing them to carpet bomb the PCs.
For example, say you take 6 of these 'bomber rogues'. Each is worth 6,400 XP (10th level Rogue NPCs = CR 9) and 6,400 x 6 = 38,400 or a CR 14 encounter. At CR 14, these guys could drop 60d6 plus 6xInt on the party. Just averaging the dice puts that at 210 points of damage plus 6xInt. An Int of 14 isn't unreasonable, and allows for an extra 12 points of damage, and a second round of bombs.
Granted, there is lots of things 14th level PCs can do to neutralize these guys, but, as a mook, they are fairly scary for a party in those numbers.
I think you can take the scout archetype too, letting you get a reliable way to get your one bomb a round by charging or moving! Then stack up on the extra bomb feats.
A fair point, Tels, I sometimes forget that plenty of material out there is built for NPCs, allies, and enemies without being particularly useful for PCs.
A fair point, Tels, I sometimes forget that plenty of material out there is built for NPCs, allies, and enemies without being particularly useful for PCs.
I have more fun building NPCs than PCs because I can build many, many PCs that will never see the light of day due to lack of opportunity to run them. I can adapt them to NPCs, but it feels like a hollow shell of it's potential.
The most fun, are the builds that function equally well as NPCs and PCs, but those are rare.
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So, with the idea that of using this as an NPC this is what I came up with.
Human Bomber Rogue (Scout, Underground Chemist)
Point Buy:
15-pt buy: Str 10, Dex 15 (17), Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse, (Dodge)
3) Extra Rogue Talent (Bomber Discovery: Acid Bomb, Explosive Bomb, Frost Bomb, Smoke Bomb, Shock Bomb or Tanglefoot Bomb)
5) Mobility
7) Spring Attack
9) Improved Initiative
11) Iron Will
13) Great Fortitude
Rogue Talents:
2) Bomber
4) [Precise Splash Weapons]
6) Offensive Defense
8) Swift Poison
10) Lasting Poison
12) Crippling Strike
14) Harrow Strike
Custom Gear: Modified the Fogcutter Lenses to be a 1/day item lasting 50 minutes worth 1,600 gp.
The idea is for the Rogue to be a terrifying opponent for the party to face and come in various strengths. The rogues will exist at level 4, level 8 and level 12, though I mapped them out to 14 in case I feel like bumping up a couple.
At 4th level, they get sneak attack on their splash weapons, and, for a tough challenge, one can run 4 of them together, each with a different bomber discovery. Especially one with a Smoke Bomb. With a Smoke Bomb and the above modified Fogcutter Lenses, they can run around in the smoke, dealing sneak attack damage with near impunity.
By 8th level, they have Swift Poison and Skirmish, from the Scout archetype. This lets them apply poison as a move action, and any time they move 10 ft. or more, they can make a sneak attack. Plus they'll have Spring Attack. So, move 10 ft. toss bomb, or move 10 ft, Sneak Attack with poison. At 12th level, their Sneak Attack bombs now deal strength damage as well, and they can get 2 uses out of each dose of poison.
Keep in mind, each time you are afflicted with the same poison, the DC increases by 2. So if you have 4 of these Rogues stab the same guy with a poisoned blade, the DC for the last save comes with a +6 increase.
If a 14th level version of this Rogue exists, Harrow Strike just adds more nastiness to their Bombs, dealing ability damage based off the suit of the card drawn equal to the number of sneak attack dice.
Plus, I really enjoy the mental imagery I've built in my mind. That of a group of plague doctor looking alchemists (except, no bird mask, goggles instead). Each one has a bladed dagger hidden in their sleeve modified with a syringe (purely flavor and for inflicting poison), and some poison canisters they can load into the syringe (preferably in a revolver style on their wrist). The 8th level Rogue, especially, seems fun, because he can move away from an enemy, making Acrobatic Checks to avoid an AoO, flavored as back-hand flips; and with the final flip, the Rogue draws a vial (bomb) and tosses it, causing an explosion, and due to the Skirmish ability, dealing Sneak Attack damage.
To me, this just comes off as a very scary, and hopefully, memorable group of NPC villains to use against the party. Ideally, when they see these guys on the battlefield, one should expect to see dread appear on their faces.
That is pretty cool. There's no reason the magic goggles you customized couldn't also be built into the Plague Doctor bird like mask. It would look pretty cool.
One thing though, Spring Attack is for melee attacks only. You'll need Point Blank Shot and Shot on the Run to do your move 10ft, throw and move again scenario.
Your 8th level guys could have a Quick Runner's Shirt to get a 1/day extra move action though.
Ah, damn, yeah, you're right about Spring Attack. I guess I could modify the feats and remove some to get Shot on the Run, but I think I'd rather have Iron Will and Great Fortitude, if only to help prevent knocking them all out with a will or fort save. Plus, Improved Initiative helps with ensuring sneak attacks.
The 4th level guys could have it as well, depending on the point buy of the PCs. There is a little known rule that if the PCs are using 20 point buy, then NPCs get double their normal wealth, so instead of having 2,400 GP at 4th level in gear, they'd have 4,800 gp at 4th level, letting them own the Lesser Fogcutter Lenses and the Quickrunner's Shirt.
Note that these values are approximate and based on the values for a campaign using the medium experience progression and a normal treasure allotment. If your campaign is using the fast experience progression, treat your NPCs as one level higher when determining their gear. If your campaign is using the slow experience progression, treat the NPCs as one level lower when determining their gear. If your campaign is high fantasy, double these values. Reduce them by half if your campaign is low fantasy. If the final value of an NPC's gear is a little over or under these amounts, that's okay.
Low Fantasy = 10 pt buy
Normal Fantasy = 15 pt buyHigh Fantasy = 20 pt buy
Awesome. Glad you could save your IRA Bomb Guild there.
I don't want to run into these guys at all. Right now in our city adventure, we have to "encourage" the 2 local gangs of mafia style rogues to leave the city. So far we found our Fireball like reflex save spells have been worthless, most make their Evasion saves. They've been using throwing clubs and stabbing with daggers. The frustrating part is that is the only loot the bastiches have lol.
Bombs would make us turn tail and spend resources out of control to keep us in the fight. I should say war, because the fights would no longer be easy.
To be fair, these guys lose Evasion, so they'd be easier to Fireball. But yeah, they'd be a nightmare to fight.
These guys could easily fulfill a number of classic roles, from bomber terrorists, to mad scientist-esque alchemists, a group of anarchists, black market alchemists (dealing in explosives, drugs, poisons, and other alchemical stuff) to enforcers for the mafia.
Now to write a campaign in which these guys can make an appearance...