Now that voting is well underway and we've all had a chance to see a good number of items, how do you guys feel about the comments at the start of the contest that staves were "hard mode"?
Do you think that's accurate based on what you've seen? Do you think that other item types were actually tougher to design? Do you think that certain item types trend one way or the other, as strong entries or weak entries?
As a reminder, don't discuss specific items, just trends amongst item types.
Staves as "hard mode" meant that just putting a group of thematic spells in a stick wasn't going to be Superstar. Most of the people who made staves got that, and so stepped it up. Most of the people who took on that challenge did so seriously and put a lot of thought into their creations, so it makes it seem like staves weren't as hard as they were.
Rings seem to be a hard choice, but I think that's more because people feel they can port over their wondrous item creation into a ring. If they had announced this twist back in the spring, I don't think as many rings would feel like hastily-reskinned wondrous items as they currently do.
A lot of the rods feel like +x maces with powers, rather than rods that can also be weapons. I've never had a character use rods before, except meta-magic ones or rods of splendour, so they feel difficult to me. (It's also difficult to avoid unfortunate phallic symbolism)
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I've seen some very good staves in competition. Have I seen many that have stood out as original and super magic items? No.
The extra power beyond spell selection is where the staves become tricky. Hence "Hard Mode": building a consistent theme with a spell selection and a power set that matches in? Difficult at best.
Yeah, I agree with what made staves hard. I so think that many who submitted staves stepped it up, as Nazard said. I feel like staves, taken as a category, have been solid.
I also agree that rings and rods also posed inherent design challenges.
There isn't an easy mode, new design traps abound:
Weapons- the trap is making a weapon that does what it noramlly does only better.
Armor- the trap is to glom onto a class or monster theme and roll with obvious abilities that implies.
Shield- the trap is apparently to try and make sword and board viable via combat maneuvers.
Rod- trying to be a mace or a spell thief are the common ones
Staff- Vanilla staff is one trap, apparently tree staff is the other
The trap with a ring is to mistake it for just a different form of wondrous item. Rings are generally far more powerful than your average wondrous item with higher bonuses even in the lesser rings. They also tend to have their powers easily available without much fuss (free, swift, or immediate actions) or continuous.
Simply porting over a wondrous item ability to a ring is a BIG mistake.
Armor can be a wondrous item port, too. My wondrous item was going to be a robe. Would have been super easy to make it a suit of armour, and I almost did.
In hindsight, given some of the comments in the rant thread, I really wish I had...
>>>
Cloak becomes armor
Glove becomes ring or spiked gauntlet
Head gear becomes Armor
stand alone magic becomes a rod or staff
I've found most of these transparent
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From my voting, Shields are apparently the hardest one this year.
There are at least 4, possibly more, shields that disarm weapons attacking you. What a bizarre niche for so many to try and fill at once.
There are also a significant number that involve a window or portal you look/reach/strike through.
I am surprised both by the number and poor quality of shields in this contest.
As for staves, hell, I have voted for totally vanilla staves with no powers beyond their spell list, because they were up against awful, mistake filled nightmares or things desperately trying to tell me how cool and awesome they are.
Yeah, there are traps for each item type for sure. I think with rods, the tricky thing is that they seem the least defined of all existing item types.
Rings are tricky because they can be easily over- or underpowered.
Do you guys think that the label "hard mode" maybe helped folks who decided to create a staff?
It probably pushed some creative people who might otherwise have not bothered doing a staff (pff! It's a stick with a spell list!) into doing one, just for the challenge.
>>>
Cloak becomes armor
Glove becomes ring or spiked gauntlet
Head gear becomes Armor
stand alone magic becomes a rod or staffI've found most of these transparent
I'd say Shoulder/Body (cloak, robe, vestment)
And Eye slot for some reason feels like it turns into ring or rod, mostly.I'd say I do consider staves a bit "hard mode". Not only does the majority of staves have a weapon function, they also have more than one spell and an ability typically. That makes them subject to the same scrutinies as weapons (often), they are practically begging to be considered multiple-spells-in-cans and there's no instant theme (armor/shield protects, weapons attack) and the existing ones (at least in most games I have seen) don't see large amounts of use.
All other items have pitfalls, but I do think that staves have slightly more of them.
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It probably pushed some creative people who might otherwise have not bothered doing a staff (pff! It's a stick with a spell list!) into doing one, just for the challenge.
I did one for exactly this reason, though I didn't end up using it as my entry.
I think what I'm struggling with when it comes to weapons and armor is function clearly follows form (which it generally should). However, to me, a lot of the items in those categories are just what I'd expect. That doesn't make them bad, certainly, but does make me feel like they're a little less exciting/Superstar.
In an odd way, I'm finding those hard mode, whereas staves in some ways have an easier path to breaking out of the expected because there was a lot of talk about what they needed to do.
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The hardest part of creating a superstar item is stepping outside of the "xyz here are the spells" and finding something that doesn't exist, but ties those spells/effects together into a synergistic relationship.
Anyone can pick 1-4 related spells, describe a stick, ring, piece of armor or weapon and call it "an item." There are books filled with that kind of stuff. Not every item in Paizo's catalog are superstar, some are pretty pathetic and someone got paid to write those, so there is a place for that kind of design.
However, this isn't a contest for that kind of design. I still think that on the whole everything entered here is not on "hard mode." Some people really did rise to the challenge though and it shows.
That is not to slight anyone who tried their best. If you are designing, learning and growing as a writer/designer, than you are still getting something out of this process and you should be proud of your accomplishments. I don't know if I wrote something that I think is superstar, but I do have a greater appreciation for those who have entered and placed because dang, "hard mode" is hard.
There are books filled with that kind of stuff. Not every item in Paizo's catalog are superstar, some are pretty pathetic and someone got paid to write those, so there is a place for that kind of design.
Not every item has to be superstar. Having access to generic items allows the for the character's to have progression devices. IE the player progresses from having the mundane to wielding the epics.
Its also the key to selling products just look that progression of mundane to individual/specialty monsters in the monster manuals.
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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Not every item has to be superstar. Having access to generic items allows the for the character's to have progression devices. IE the player progresses from having the mundane to wielding the epics.Its also the key to selling products just look that progression of mundane to individual/specialty monsters in the monster manuals.
Absolutely and there are designers who work for Paizo who have assured me that they could not win RPG SS. This contest isn't for everyone, but that does not make them any less awesome designers. My comment was more to say - don't give up your hope of designing games if you don't win.
Some of us are somewhat content with voter titles that make us the idols of ones!
(Obviously, I discount the concept of being the idol of tens or dozens. Heck the ones is a pretty blatant stretch!)
;)
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There's a place for "utility items" that help a character get better at her core role, or boost a secondary role, but aren't interesting by themselves. Cloaks of resistance and rings of protection fall into this category. The ability to improve these areas (and by spending more money than your allies, improve it more than is typical for your level - at the cost of having less money to improve other areas)is a useful option for characters and GMs.
But they are appallingly dull items, uninteresting, tepid, lacking in imagination, flavorless, easily overshadowed, no sense of adventure, tedious, and irrepressibly drab and awful.
Staves often fall into this category. It's *hard* to tell an exciting and interesting story within the framework of a staff, especially when firmly sticking to the staff rules. They're the original spells-in-a-can, and lean toward Swiss-army-knife, AND tend to be fairly boring sticks.
However, from such a bland canvas, I think a work of genius can emerge. So yeah, I see them as hard mode. Looking at many of the entries convinces me it's a hard mode some folks failed. But they are *also* a great opportunity for a great designer to stand up and see "Look how cool this thing I made is, despite the challenges!"
Yes, I'd agree staves are still the hard category.
I think the problem I keep finding is that a lot of stave entries have been weaponised. I know of several that have a +1/+2/+3 bonus with one or two special weapon abilities and often made of a special material.
In my mind, this is a bit of a trap. Yes, most published staves can be used as a weapon, but they have basic bonuses. They are clearly staff first, weapon second. A number of entries I've voted on are clearly a weapon first, staff as an afterthought.
For judging purposes, I assumed the design space of a rod to be a few checks in the box.
1. Does it function as a weapon?
I dont think this is a bad thing. Most rods do, and I assume its meant to make them more attractive to buyers in the CRB.
A) Is craft arms and armor in the requirements.
B) Does the mace-type and special powers make sense for what the rod does/its theme?
2. Does it have charges?
I don't think Rods should have charges. A "once a day" is fine, but if it has charges and a way to refill, it either should have been a staff or was designed as a wand.
3. What does it enhance?
Rods to me have always been buffs in a stick as opposed to spells in a can. They tend to help the owner do a specialized thing really well, like meta-magics, diplomacy, fill a theme, or something. Thats what seems to set them apart from the self contained wondrous items that are similar.
4. Does it have spells known?
If so, it should have been a staff.
For me many entrants got staffs right (apart from the weaponized ones), they exhibited creativeness within the design criteria of a staff. Results varied, of course.
However rods were on the whole not done well. Their design criteria, as snipped:
1. Does it function as a weapon?
A) Is craft arms and armor in the requirements.
B) Does the mace-type and special powers make sense for what the rod does/its theme?2. Does it have charges?
I don't think Rods should have charges. A "once a day" is fine,3. What does it enhance?
4. Does it have spells known?
If so, it should have been a staff.
and what Rods are about perhaps was not understood or suffered from the conversion from wondrous items the most.
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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Staves have been a bad category for me. If I read your staff, and you did a good job, you had:
1. A series of related spells.
2. An enhancement bonus
3. A skill bonus.
At this point, you need something else. If all you had was summarized above, it's not a Superstar item. Sorry, you knew it was hard mode.
If you're other power was amazing (and I mean AMAZING) I keep reading. If it was meh, you're still done. I'll take a weapon with a neat power over that. Sorry ;)
Staves have been a bad category for me. If I read your staff, and you did a good job, you had:
1. A series of related spells.
2. An enhancement bonus
3. A skill bonus.At this point, you need something else. If all you had was summarized above, it's not a Superstar item. Sorry, you knew it was hard mode.
I definitely agree with this. I've seen a lot of staves ignore the key benefit of the staff over the wand just to make the item seem unique. It still has to meet the core values of a staff and then add something special.
I've seen a lot of staves that ignore the minimum 8th level caster rule for the sake of pricing and whatnot.
I dont know what the cheapest possible stave is, but I bet its not under 10000gp.
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I've seen a lot of staves that ignore the minimum 8th level caster rule for the sake of pricing and whatnot.
I dont know what the cheapest possible stave is, but I bet its not under 10000gp.
Weaponized Staff. I don't have the "staff as a weapon" bias that it seems some have. I judge the item on how well it accomplishes ts primary function and whether or not that function is exciting. I have seen one staff that is definitely a weapon and I love it. I have only seen one or two "traditional" staves that have impressed me.
I've seen a lot of staves that ignore the minimum 8th level caster rule for the sake of pricing and whatnot.
I dont know what the cheapest possible stave is, but I bet its not under 10000gp.
The cheapest possible staff costs 560 gp, but it's just about the most pointless item you can imagine owning (two cantrips, each of which costs all 10 charges to use).
The cheapest possible staff costs 560 gp, but it's just about the most pointless item you can imagine owning (two cantrips, each of which costs all 10 charges to use).
Couldn't you do it with just one cantrip?
Staff of opening/closing anyone? :D
Staves get ignored if they don't have text beyond their spell list. I think people really don't remember what staves do in the first place (caster only spell completion with your caster level). They aren't just rechargeable wands.
Rod almost are wands with daily uses. I've always thought of rods as what they refer to in Harry Potter as wands (as much as fan fic goes on about 'wandless magic', I think they're all just metamagic rods - probably 'empower' and/or 'extend'). Most of the specific rods double as weapons which has always confused me.
I don't think their's a specific hard mode though. Hard mode is knowing whether your item is Superstar no matter what type you're making. If you thought your staff was SS when it clearly isn't, I wouldn't expect much better from you with a different item.
The cheapest possible staff costs 560 gp, but it's just about the most pointless item you can imagine owning (two cantrips, each of which costs all 10 charges to use).Couldn't you do it with just one cantrip?
Staff of opening/closing anyone? :D
By definition if it only has one spell of 4th level or below it's a wand. So anyone doing that has messed up their design space! :)
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The problem with rings is that you're making a powerful sondrous item that has to compete with the ring of wizardry or ring of protection spaces. But you also have to have a new idea that isn't just a mere wondrous item. I think the best rings modify or improve an existing class ability in some way (evasion, wizardry, revelation), but a Superstar ring needs to be original in its approach. My favorite ring in the competition this year (so far) doesn't impact a class feature at all though.
Staves are pretty well identified in terms of challenge mode: making a cool-looking staff that "allows use of the following spells" isn't enough to be superstar—even if the staff fills a theme space that is lacking in the game. So a staff with an iconic ability inside a theme, aside from functioning as a weapon (whh is a weapon category item, not a staff item), is the challenge. I don't feel I have seen many that rise to that occasion, but some of you do. So hopefully I'll see what you're seeing after the cull.
Rods are hard. Sooo many rods thus far appear to be a +1 light mace with a thematic wondrous item ability attached. But what is the essence of a rod? I feel the best rods get that and separate themselves from being stick with a magic theme. Old school rods have buttons and quirky abilities that make them classics. They should follow the historical role of rods and have something to do with authority and rulership, even if that authority is over something ephemeral. Rods that are weapons or wondrous items are....not rods.
The most solid items I have seen so far are arms and armor, which underscores the challenge of putting the other categories in proper context. However, a lot of weapons are spells-in-cans, and some are not weapons that get treated like weapons. To me, that's a wondrous item.
All the thoughts expressed in this thread will hopefully serve voters in the short term, but have the larger ipact of getting entrants ready for next year. There are some boss items in this year's superstar, but only a handful of designers will have their say in round 2. Good luck during voting, and remember, learn as you vote and as the forums discuss this year's challenges.
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My favorite ring in the competition this year (so far) doesn't impact a class feature at all though.
And a bunch of ring creators get excited here (or depressed, considering...)
Rods are hard.
Heh. Heh. (Sorry, really couldn't resist.)
By definition if it only has one spell of 4th level or below it's a wand. So anyone doing that has messed up their design space! :)The cheapest possible staff costs 560 gp, but it's just about the most pointless item you can imagine owning (two cantrips, each of which costs all 10 charges to use).Couldn't you do it with just one cantrip?
Staff of opening/closing anyone? :D
Thanks for proving my point. A staff of fireball (10 charges, rechargeable, CL matches yours, not viable use via UMD) would be a very different item than a wand of fireball (50 charges, static CL, usable by anyone via UMD).
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Staves have been a bad category for me. If I read your staff, and you did a good job, you had:
1. A series of related spells.
2. An enhancement bonus
3. A skill bonus.At this point, you need something else. If all you had was summarized above, it's not a Superstar item. Sorry, you knew it was hard mode.
If you're other power was amazing (and I mean AMAZING) I keep reading. If it was meh, you're still done. I'll take a weapon with a neat power over that. Sorry ;)
If an experienced forumite believes the above is a good design for a staff then no wonder people think they are hard, as for me, the above design would be an automatic fail as too powerful.
I am beginning to see why none of last years top 32 finalist were taken from the voted top 32, and number 80-something made it on to the list. It may be something to do with equating superstarness with magical power.
Staves have been a bad category for me. If I read your staff, and you did a good job, you had:
1. A series of related spells.
2. An enhancement bonus
3. A skill bonus.At this point, you need something else. If all you had was summarized above, it's not a Superstar item. Sorry, you knew it was hard mode.
If you're other power was amazing (and I mean AMAZING) I keep reading. If it was meh, you're still done. I'll take a weapon with a neat power over that. Sorry ;)
By enhancement do you mean weapon enhancement? Personally I do not like a focus on staves as weapons, but it doesn't necessarily count against them in my voting. Only two in the CRB function as weapons, one fits really well for the druidic theme and the other is the staff of power, which is kind of its own category.
This might also be the first time I have seen a skill bonus recommended in RPGSS :) None of the CRB staves do this.
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Where did you see that none of last year's Top 32 were among the Top 32 vote-getters? I don't recall that.
I recall No. 2 or 3 not making it in, though that may have been the previous year. I think also one (or more?) of the Top 32 was picked from number 80-something, but not that none of them were ranked higher than that.
My favorite ring in the competition this year (so far) doesn't impact a class feature at all though.And a bunch of ring creators get excited here (or depressed, considering...)
I let out a sigh of relief about a different item category listed in another long-term poster's post. Funny how Steven, Eric & Jacobs' (& others) opinions carry such weight, even for someone who has been around forever. :)
Where did you see that none of last year's Top 32 were among the Top 32 vote-getters? I don't recall that.
I recall No. 2 or 3 not making it in, though that may have been the previous year. I think also one (or more?) of the Top 32 was picked from number 80-something, but not that none of them were ranked higher than that.
Sorry I can't find the exact post but it said that the top 32 of last year were ranked by the voting from something like 38 to 82, that is the lowest ranked item was 80 something and the highest ranked item was around 38.
To clarify my 2nd point it seems that a lot of people think that in order to be a Superstar item you first need to be a powerful item. Needless to say I don't think that.
And for completeness my first point was that I think staffs were overall better than the rods.
I guess the proof of this will be in the numbers that make it into the top 100 and the final 32, given that there were about the same number of each (~10% staffs and ~9% rods) submitted
By definition if it only has one spell of 4th level or below it's a wand. So anyone doing that has messed up their design space! :)
Not necessarily.
A) A wand contains only a single spell of 4th level or lower
B) A staff can contain multiple spells
C) A staff can contain spells higher than 4th level
A does not equal B + C
I agree that it would be a silly use of the design space, but not a strictly illegal one.
By definition if it only has one spell of 4th level or below it's a wand. So anyone doing that has messed up their design space! :)Not necessarily.
A) A wand contains only a single spell of 4th level or lower
B) A staff can contain multiple spells
C) A staff can contain spells higher than 4th levelA does not equal B + C
I agree that it would be a silly use of the design space, but not a strictly illegal one.
And as Alex stated above, the caster level and UMD utility are different. Making a staff into a single spell stick—especially a fourth level spell or lower—is right in the ludicrous zone.
But yes, if someone really wanted to, they could.
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Never know when that CL20 read magic might come in handy. :D
Judging by my "keeper" list, which currently sits at 15, optimistically/unrealistically including my own item, I have:
7 Weapons
4 Rings
2 Rods
1 Armor
1 Staff
The Staves were clearly difficult, but I have two or three staves on my "alternate" list, which may end up keepers if I can't find better stuff. Truly, the worst items I've seen are shields (of which I've loved zero), followed by armor.
Currently I have 4 Armors, 4 Rings, 1 Rod, 1 Shield, 1 Staff, 9 Weapons.
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Staves have been a bad category for me. If I read your staff, and you did a good job, you had:
1. A series of related spells.
2. An enhancement bonus
3. A skill bonus.At this point, you need something else. If all you had was summarized above, it's not a Superstar item. Sorry, you knew it was hard mode.
If you're other power was amazing (and I mean AMAZING) I keep reading. If it was meh, you're still done. I'll take a weapon with a neat power over that. Sorry ;)
By enhancement do you mean weapon enhancement? Personally I do not like a focus on staves as weapons, but it doesn't necessarily count against them in my voting. Only two in the CRB function as weapons, one fits really well for the druidic theme and the other is the staff of power, which is kind of its own category.
This might also be the first time I have seen a skill bonus recommended in RPGSS :) None of the CRB staves do this.
Sorry, what I meant was that staffs I had seen that were in the ok-good (but not superstar) range seemed to follow this formula. It was a list of spells, typically a bonus to a skill (often semi-related) and a simple +X weapon enhancement. To me, that's a better item than many of the +X weapon that casts spell 1/day. At least it shows you know the design space. If your staff didn't even do any of that (I.e., was just a list of spells), I think you missed the point of the contest.
That's why I said those staffs were good, but it takes a genuinely new power to make it superstar (at least in my opinion). Sorry if I caused confusion with my choice of words....
A keeper list without Jacob's item would be like a Christmas without a new pair of socks under the tree. It simply isn't done.
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You misspelled Chanukah there... :)
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I don't remember seeing a post in any year that definitively identifies which items in the top 100 made it into the second round. When Clark dropped the list of the top 100 in 2013, I never found out where mine ranked, although I think clues placed it at either 2 or 8. IIRC, most of the top 32 that year were in the top 32 by vote.
That's the most specifics I have ever seen the data get, and I really struggle to believe that none of the top 32 vote getters made it into the overall top 32. I think something in the aforementioned post must have been understood.
Hey, as far as my ring comment, remember I am not a Round One judge. I offered a vague opinion, but my favorite ring might not be everyone else's favorite ring.
But it should be. : )
I've tried searching the forums a couple times, I was able to find the list of top 100 from last years entries but they are in alphabetical order not voted order. Does anyone have a link for that info?
I've tried searching the forums a couple times, I was able to find the list of top 100 from last years entries but they are in alphabetical order not voted order. Does anyone have a link for that info?
They actually avoid ever stating what the voting order was. It is sort of irrelevant as the judges ignore the actual placing when making their decisions. The voting is simply to give them 100 items that the public think are better than the rest; that is usually enough to get a top 32 plus 4 alternates.