Is half your level 2 or 2.5?


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Swashbucklers and Gunslingers get Panache/Grit back if they put down a monster not less than half their level. So if you're 5th level do you get it back from a 2HD monster?

Rounding rules say:"Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value."

This brings into question are the rules asking me to round a result of value?

Liberty's Edge

The general rule is you always round down unless specifically told to do otherwise.


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HangarFlying wrote:
The general rule is you always round down unless specifically told to do otherwise.

Actually the general rule is

"Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3."

My question is: Are the rules asking me to round down? I mean technically you don't have to.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, what I said.

You're definitely not being asked to round up. How would you determine when someone is at level 2.5?


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It doesn't necessarily matter that it's not round. Half your level is 2.5.
2 is less than 2.5.


I don't think you need to round at all in this case.

Rounding occurs when something needs to become "real". If you get a bonus equal to half your level on Perception checks, that bonus is "real" because it has game-world repercussions, and needs to be a discrete number, not a fraction.

But in this case, you're being asked to compare two numbers, and they don't become "real" until after you compare them. So, comparing 2 to 2.5 is fine in this case, because it's only after the comparison is done that the "real" effect occurs, i.e., whether you regain Panache.

So I would say that no, a 5th-level Swashbuckler doesn't gain panache from killing a 2 HD monster.


The rules would seem to indicate that half of 5 is indeed 2:

Quote:
For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

There are no additional words there that qualify when to round, or only round in some cases, so it would seem to be always that case.

If you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3. If you are asked to take half of 5, the result would be 2.

The OP was asked to take half of 5, the result is 2.


So 1 is the only thing that is less then half of 5?
That's just silly.


Well, CR works a bit differently.

Even at level 1 this rule can come into play, because some creatures are at CR 1/4, or even 1/8.

The rounding rule is mostly for bonuses, I'd say.

2 is certainly less than half of 5. There's no reason to round, here.

If you gain a bonus to X equal to half your level, then you round, because a half point bonus does nothing. Not here.


_Ozy_ wrote:

The rules would seem to indicate that half of 5 is indeed 2:

Quote:
For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

There are no additional words there that qualify when to round, or only round in some cases, so it would seem to be always that case.

If you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3. If you are asked to take half of 5, the result would be 2.

The OP was asked to take half of 5, the result is 2.

Actually there are no rules to suggest rounding at all. In cases where you should round the rules ask you to do so and the general case is that you round down, but as mentioned above this is ONLY when you are asked to round.

In this case half is 2.5 as it does not ask for rounding. It doesn't matter if 2.5 is a level that anyone can ever reach. The rules say no less than half your level, in this case no less than 2.5, as far as I can read there isn't anything to suggest calculating in this way isn't RAW or doesn't work with the rules. Here 2.5 is a qualifying condition, and not a number that requires a whole value to interact with the rules.

Liberty's Edge

RumpinRufus wrote:

I don't think you need to round at all in this case.

Rounding occurs when something needs to become "real". If you get a bonus equal to half your level on Perception checks, that bonus is "real" because it has game-world repercussions, and needs to be a discrete number, not a fraction.

But in this case, you're being asked to compare two numbers, and they don't become "real" until after you compare them. So, comparing 2 to 2.5 is fine in this case, because it's only after the comparison is done that the "real" effect occurs, i.e., whether you regain Panache.

So I would say that no, a 5th-level Swashbuckler doesn't gain panache from killing a 2 HD monster.

After rereading the first post, I realize I got stuck on rounding when I didn't have to. I agree with what is being said here.


Read the rounding rules. It says specifically, if you are asked to take half of 7, you get 3. It doesn't say you get 3 only for bonuses or penalties or checks, it says when you calculate 1/2 the value, you round, period.

If someone is asked to compare against 1/2 their level, you round, by RAW. I don't see any words around this statement:

Quote:
For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

that only applies to checks, bonuses, or any other limitation. Therefore rounding happens whenever you are asked to take 1/2 of a value.

What RAW are people appealing to when they decide differently? Where in the rules are comparisons ever made against fractional values?


They're appealing to the RAW that means things should make at least some semblance of sense. There's no reason to round half the PC's level in this case. Doing so leads to absurdity. Not doing so doesn't. Ergo, do the thing that makes sense and doesn't lead to absurdity.


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What absurdity are you talking about? Taking half of 5 is 2, whether it's extra damage, a bonus to a skill check, or a number to compare against your level. It's written in the rules in pretty clear black and white.

This is how rounding works in Pathfinder, you're going to have to find written exceptions if you want to make it work differently.

If I'm level 15, half of 15 is 7. Levels lower than 7 are 1-6. Can you find anywhere in Pathfinder that makes comparisons against fractional numbers? Anywhere?

If I'm trying to 'beat' a caster level, do I get to count extra 1/2's for that too? When you compare against numbers, you round down. Comparing monster levels against half your level, you round down. That's just how the rules work.


The difference in this case is you can have half a CR, whereas you can't have half of anything else.

This is not a case where it makes sense to round down.


5th level Swashbucklers should not get pinache back for confirming crits against 2HD creatures. That 2 is not fewer than half (rounded down) of 5 is the problem. 2 is certainly less than half of 5.

I'm not seeing where we're directed to round in this scenario, anyway.

For checks, you generall have to meet the number, so losing the half to rounding is inconsequential. This situation is different.


Rynjin wrote:

The difference in this case is you can have half a CR, whereas you can't have half of anything else.

This is not a case where it makes sense to round down.

The ability doesn't say CR, it says HD, which is an integer number.

Seriously guys, when does Pathfinder ever make number comparisons against fractions?

There is lots of RAW in pathfinder that doesn't make 'sense', that doesn't mean you get to ignore RAW.

The consequence of the result is, like any other round down mechanic, that success or failure will occur 1 level different than you might otherwise expect. This doesn't 'break' the mechanic or result in something so ridiculous that ignoring RAW is justified.

So, instead of level 4, it's level 5 which is the last level to receive panach from critting 2 HD opponents. You really think that's 'ridiculous' enough to ignore rounding RAW?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
NikolaiJuno wrote:

It doesn't necessarily matter that it's not round. Half your level is 2.5.

2 is less than 2.5.

^ This is how I've always viewed it.

Solution: play a Bolt Ace.

That Archetype gets rid of the CR requirement.


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fretgod99 wrote:

5th level Swashbucklers should not get pinache back for confirming crits against 2HD creatures. That 2 is not fewer than half (rounded down) of 5 is the problem. 2 is certainly less than half of 5.

I'm not seeing where we're directed to round in this scenario, anyway.

For checks, you generall have to meet the number, so losing the half to rounding is inconsequential. This situation is different.

You're not seeing it? How many times do I have to quote the rule:

Quote:
For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

How could it be any more clear than that? It doesn't say 'do this only for checks, or bonuses, or penalties, or damage'. It says when you take half of an odd number, you round down.

If you're asked to take half of your level 5, the result is 2.

This situation is only 'different' in that you somehow think that a level 5 swashbuckler receiving panache from critting 2 HD is 'ridiculous' whereas a level 4 swashbuckler is not.

Or a level 14 getting panache from a 7 HD monster is fine, but not a level 15 swashbuckler.

That's your bar for ignoring RAW, and it seems utterly arbitrary.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

The difference in this case is you can have half a CR, whereas you can't have half of anything else.

This is not a case where it makes sense to round down.

The ability doesn't say CR, it says HD, which is an integer number.

Seriously guys, when does Pathfinder ever make number comparisons against fractions?

There is lots of RAW in pathfinder that doesn't make 'sense', that doesn't mean you get to ignore RAW.

The consequence of the result is, like any other round down mechanic, that success or failure will occur 1 level different than you might otherwise expect. This doesn't 'break' the mechanic or result in something so ridiculous that ignoring RAW is justified.

So, instead of level 4, it's level 5 which is the last level to receive panache from critting 2 HD opponents. You really think that's 'ridiculous' enough to ignore rounding RAW?

Ah, right, my mistake.

Still, the "rounding RAW" as you call it is not universal. This is not a "result of value", which is what that applies to, it is a static number of HD.

"Add half your level" at level 7 gives a result of 3.5, which rounds down.

Likewise adding a value equal to 1.5x your Str modifier with Power Attack at 16 Str results in a mere +1 damage boost, rather than 1.5.

This is not a result or value, and need not be rounded.


I think the thing that everyone is missing is that the rules tell you when you need to round, in this case they do not so you don't, that's all there is to it.

"Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value"

I don't see the rules asking us to round and RAI there isn't a need to. Sometimes there are cases where decimal numbers are incompatible and so you would be forced to round to get values that made any sense. Such cases revolve around decimals interacting with values that are only integers, such as say a skill DC. In this case that isn't required, I can easily compare HD and half of my level and see if one is greater. Can I ever have 2.5 HD, of course not. But I don't have to have that case exist for 2.5 to he a valid comparison value.

From my end RAW seems to support this by specifically calling out that the rules will ask you to round when you need to. I would be happy to see quotes that point otherwise though


Can anyone give any example of Pathfinder utilizing a fractional level for any other comparison?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

CR?


Nefreet wrote:
CR?

CR isn't a level or HD or really compared to anything in the actual game mechanics. You don't compare 10 + caster level against 10 + CR as far as I know anywhere in the rules.

So, are there any comparisons made vs. any fractional numbers in Pathfinder?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
CR?

CR isn't a level or HD or really compared to anything in the actual game mechanics. You don't compare 10 + caster level against 10 + CR as far as I know anywhere in the rules.

So, are there any comparisons made vs. any fractional numbers in Pathfinder?

Knowledge checks.


BigDTBone wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
CR?

CR isn't a level or HD or really compared to anything in the actual game mechanics. You don't compare 10 + caster level against 10 + CR as far as I know anywhere in the rules.

So, are there any comparisons made vs. any fractional numbers in Pathfinder?

Knowledge checks.

Um yeah, they get rounded down just like RAW says.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. Are there any comparisons against fractional values that don't get rounded for the comparison.


So, since it got mentioned just now, how do you resolve them knowledge checks with 1/8, and other fractions?

This hd issue came up in a recent game for me and I didn't know what to say because I never even bothered to think about it. I've normally just assumed things are as tough or tougher, so you'd gain the points back. I've learned my lesson to ask, but I'm still baffled this hasn't been discussed/resolved since gunslinger.


_Ozy_ wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:

5th level Swashbucklers should not get pinache back for confirming crits against 2HD creatures. That 2 is not fewer than half (rounded down) of 5 is the problem. 2 is certainly less than half of 5.

I'm not seeing where we're directed to round in this scenario, anyway.

For checks, you generall have to meet the number, so losing the half to rounding is inconsequential. This situation is different.

You're not seeing it? How many times do I have to quote the rule:

Quote:
For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

How could it be any more clear than that? It doesn't say 'do this only for checks, or bonuses, or penalties, or damage'. It says when you take half of an odd number, you round down.

If you're asked to take half of your level 5, the result is 2.

This situation is only 'different' in that you somehow think that a level 5 swashbuckler receiving panache from critting 2 HD is 'ridiculous' whereas a level 4 swashbuckler is not.

Or a level 14 getting panache from a 7 HD monster is fine, but not a level 15 swashbuckler.

That's your bar for ignoring RAW, and it seems utterly arbitrary.

Perhaps I'll quote the whole rule for you:

PRD wrote:
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

Now I shall once again restate the point I made earlier:

fretgod99 wrote:
I'm not seeing where we're directed to round in this scenario, anyway.

And for completeness:

Swashbuckler wrote:
Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler's character level to 0 or fewer hit points doesn't restore any panache.

*shrug*

Don't really have a problem however a person wants to run it, to be honest. But not rounding here makes more intuitive sense to me.

I see a difference between setting a DC and this situation. Perhaps they're not. Dunno. Seems far sillier in this situation than the normal course. I don't think a 1st level Swashbuckler should regain panache by stepping on a toad, but maybe that's the intent.


_Ozy_ wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
CR?

CR isn't a level or HD or really compared to anything in the actual game mechanics. You don't compare 10 + caster level against 10 + CR as far as I know anywhere in the rules.

So, are there any comparisons made vs. any fractional numbers in Pathfinder?

Knowledge checks.

Um yeah, they get rounded down just like RAW says.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. Are there any comparisons against fractional values that don't get rounded for the comparison.

Is there something that specifically tells us that knowledge check DCs get rounded down? Honestly, I'm curious. Is there anything explicit? I can't remember.

Though most creatures with <1 HD, the check is going to be either 6 or 11 in that case.

Grand Lodge

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_Ozy_ wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
CR?

CR isn't a level or HD or really compared to anything in the actual game mechanics. You don't compare 10 + caster level against 10 + CR as far as I know anywhere in the rules.

So, are there any comparisons made vs. any fractional numbers in Pathfinder?

Knowledge checks.

Um yeah, they get rounded down just like RAW says.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. Are there any comparisons against fractional values that don't get rounded for the comparison.

Favored Class Bonuses other than hit points or skill points. Things like 1/6th of a Rogue Talent, which is always truncated, rather than rounded.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'd say that determining the Knowledge DC of a 1/2 CR creature is comparable to determining whether killing that creature gets you your grit back.


I already quoted the whole rule myself.

Yes, 'Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value'.

When do they ask? Whenever they ask you to divide a number and you end up with a fractional amount.

Do you see an explicit: 'round down' for the DC knowledge check? I sure don't. In fact, most of the times you end up with fractional values, you use the implicit 'always round down' rule rather than an explicit rule every time it could happen.

Again, come up with any other Pathfinder comparison which actually uses the fractional value to determine true or false, yes or no. Or maybe just consider that this one and only one exceptional result regarding the panache might instead just be a rounding situation like every other comparison in Pathfinder.

There are all sorts of exceptions to the Pathfinder rules that 'make more intuitive sense' to a whole lot of people. This board is filled with them. That doesn't mean those exceptions are correct by RAW, or even RAI.

Panache works vs. HD, not CR. So even a 1/8 CR creature is at least 1HD, and would qualify for the ability. The toad is a 1HD (1d8-2) creature. Even a level 2 (and 3) swashbuckler would get panache for it. If you don't like this fact, don't screw up the rounding rules, just houserule the ability itself.


kinevon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
CR?

CR isn't a level or HD or really compared to anything in the actual game mechanics. You don't compare 10 + caster level against 10 + CR as far as I know anywhere in the rules.

So, are there any comparisons made vs. any fractional numbers in Pathfinder?

Knowledge checks.

Um yeah, they get rounded down just like RAW says.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. Are there any comparisons against fractional values that don't get rounded for the comparison.

Favored Class Bonuses other than hit points or skill points. Things like 1/6th of a Rogue Talent, which is always truncated, rather than rounded.

Dude, it is 'rounded down' like we've been saying the entire time. Again, this is an example of fractional values always being rounded (down) (except in very limited cases where they are rounded up). However, people are trying to argue that in the one specific case of the Swashbuckler, dividing a level in half is not rounded at all, up or down but rather the fractional value itself is used to make the comparison.

That what I'm looking for additional examples: fractional values that are used without rounding for comparisons, abilities, or any Pathfinder game mechanics purposes.


See, the thing is, you're begging the question. Panache HD works just like Knowledge DC. But only if you presume Knowledge DC also necessarily rounds down.

You comes to these results because you presume that you're supposed to round any time you divide. But that's not what the rule says. Naturally, you'll come to the same conclusion under all these situations if you assume they're all supposed to be rounded. But there's nothing in the rules that actually says you're always supposed to round.

So, that's the question. Does "When asked to round" mean "Any time you divide a number", or does rounding actually have to be mentioned somewhere? Probably more likely the former, but I don't know that I'm comfortable making a blanket statement at this point.

Silver Crusade

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2 is less than half of 5. End of.


Jodokai wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
The general rule is you always round down unless specifically told to do otherwise.

Actually the general rule is

"Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3."

My question is: Are the rules asking me to round down? I mean technically you don't have to.

In other words "Always round down when your asked to round"


Wow. Threads like this are so depressing. Ozy is, imo, 100% spot on with his analysis.

1. Whenever the rule require something be divided, there is an implicit requirement to round down. There are a ton of abilities, checks, etc that are based on "1/2 your level" and none of them use the fractional amount.

2. The rules for the swashbuckler require that you use division. That automatically imposes the requirement to round down unless specifically required to round up.

3. Players are constantly disadvantage by the round down rules e.g. Ranger getting 1/2 his level added to Track. It's always rounded down. This one time rounding down actually benefits the PC, people are trying to insist there should be no rounding? Unbelievable.

Ozy, I am dumbfounded by the refusal of other posters to acknowledge the rules as they have been written and are routinely applied. Sure, some dev could get on here and impose an asymmetry, but that would be exactly what it is.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
2 is less than half of 5. End of.

In Pathfinder, 2 = 5 / 2

Silver Crusade

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N N 959 wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
2 is less than half of 5. End of.

In Pathfinder, 2 = 5 / 2

Pathfinder uses the same mathematics as the rest of us.

If PF wants you to divide a number and use the result, rounding may or may not be required. However, this is not what is happening in this particular case.

At no point does this rule require you to divide 5 by 2 and get an answer.

Look again. This rule is asking if 2 is less than half of 5. You don't need to know what half of 5 actually is, you just need to know if 2 is less than that value, whatever that value is. The answer is yes, 2 is less than half of 5.

Oh, you want mathematical proof? You say it can't be proven without that dreaded 'half' that you want to round down? Think again!

If you want to know if the smaller number is less than half of the larger number, all you need to do is double the smaller number; if the result is less than the larger number, then the small number is less than half of the larger number. No 'halves' were harmed during the making of this calculation.

At no point does the rule ask what half of 5 is. Therefore, whether or not the answer to that, unasked, question has a half in it is not relevant.

At no point does the rule ask us to half any number. It just asks us if a small number is less than half of a larger number; it never asks us what half of the larger number actually is! We don't even need to know what that answer is; we can work out if the smaller number is less than half of the larger, without ever knowing what the value of half the large number actually is.

No number means there is no number and no fraction. No fraction means no rounding.

Grand Lodge

N N 959 wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
2 is less than half of 5. End of.
In Pathfinder, 2 = 5 / 2

Occasionally, not always.

By the way, do you consider APL to be rounded down, rounded up, or rounded as preferred by the players involved?

I know some of the posters, here, do not want to admit that PFS has some house rules that aren't house rules, but APL is subject to true mathematical rounding, which is up or down in a, sometimes, variable manner.

And, I am sorry, but can you show me where you find that EVERYTHING rounds down?

And there are plenty of other places where you get 1/2 level (minimum 1) in the rules.

And, the way you people are arguing, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a first level Swashbuckler to recover panache, since there is no minimum 1 addenda.

So, would you rather round down, and screw the first level Swashbuckler, or take the fraction? Your choice.


kinevon wrote:
And there are plenty of other places where you get 1/2 level (minimum 1) in the rules.

And that's only where it is specifically stated. Every other instance, you get 0 if you're level 1 or have some fractional amount less than 1. The perfect example are those fractional favored class bonuses which are always rounded down.

Quote:

And, the way you people are arguing, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a first level Swashbuckler to recover panache, since there is no minimum 1 addenda.

So, would you rather round down, and screw the first level Swashbuckler, or take the fraction? Your choice.

This doesn't make sense.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
N N 959 wrote:
kinevon wrote:

And, the way you people are arguing, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a first level Swashbuckler to recover panache, since there is no minimum 1 addenda.

So, would you rather round down, and screw the first level Swashbuckler, or take the fraction? Your choice.
This doesn't make sense.

It does, and his point is relevant.

If 5/2 = 2, then 1/2 = 0.

So, a 1st level Swashbuckler, which needs to kill a 1/2 CR creature, could never regain grit, as that 1/2 would round down to 0, if we use your analogy that 2.5 rounds down to 2.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Except that 1st level Swashbucklers can fight CR 1 opponents, which are clearly above half his level.

Jodokai wrote:
My question is: Are the rules asking me to round down? I mean technically you don't have to.

No, they are not. A CR 2 creature would not allow a 5th level Swashbuckler to regain grit. A CR 3 would.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

But that's not up for debate.

A 5th level Swashbuckler could, likewise, kill a CR 5 opponent.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Pathfinder uses the same mathematics as the rest of us.

No, it absolutely does not. Pathfinder uses all kinds of exceptions for doing math. Mainly it eliminates the need to track decimals/fractional amounts in computations.

Quote:
If you want to know if the smaller number is less than half of the larger number, all you need to do is double the smaller number; if the result is less than the larger number, then the small number is less than half of the larger number. No 'halves' were harmed during the making of this calculation.

And you know what, if that's how PF wanted the feat to work, they would have worded it that way. But the method of operation specifically says you take 1/2 the Swashbuckler's level. It does not say double the creature's CR.

PRD wrote:
a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the swashbuckler's character level

It's black and white. You don't get to calculate the result using s different methodology than the one stated.

5 / 2 = 2.5 = 2 in Pathfinder math.

Is 2 fewer than 2? No.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
But that's not up for debate.
kinevon wrote:
And, the way you people are arguing, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a first level Swashbuckler to recover panache, since there is no minimum 1 addenda.

Seems like it was to me.

Shadow Lodge

N N 959 wrote:
5 / 2 = 2.5 = 2 in Pathfinder math.

Only when you are asked to round.


Nefreet wrote:


So, a 1st level Swashbuckler, which needs to kill a 1/2 CR creature, could never regain grit, as that 1/2 would round down to 0, if we use your analogy that 2.5 rounds down to 2.

I must be missing something because you're not making any sense.

lvl 1 = 1/2. That's 0 in PF math.

So ANY creature with a fractional CR qualifies. You don't round the CR because the methodology doesn't tell you to divide the creature's CR.


TOZ wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
5 / 2 = 2.5 = 2 in Pathfinder math.
Only when you are asked to round.

You always round in PF and if you can name an instance that you don't, it is the exception and not the rule. Ozy quoted you a rule that says that half of 7 is 3. Seriously people, what is your disconnect?

Actually, I'm done trying to argue what Ozy has already stated.

I won't be surprised if some dev gets on here and says 2 doesn't qualify. The game authors make it up as they see fit.

Shadow Lodge

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N N 959 wrote:
The game authors make it up as they see fit.

It's kind of their job to do that.

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