_Ozy_ |

Someone give me the average for 8d10. If you've been one to say that you always round down and come up with 44, you're a hypocrite. If you come up with 40, you're wrong.

EDIT: better example.

? I'm not sure what this even means.

Nobody is disputing that mathematically speaking, 5/2 = 2.5.

We are saying that in general, Pathfinder **treats** that 2.5 as 2 unless specified otherwise.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure how your example makes sense, this is how you calculate the average of 8d10:

(8*1 + 8*10) / 2 = 44

WTF does 'rounding' have to do with it?

HangarFlying |

HangarFlying wrote:Someone give me the average for 8d10. If you've been one to say that you always round down and come up with 44, you're a hypocrite. If you come up with 40, you're wrong.

EDIT: better example.

? I'm not sure what this even means.

Nobody is disputing that mathematically speaking, 5/2 = 2.5.

We are saying that in general, Pathfinder

treatsthat 2.5 as 2 unless specified otherwise.Furthermore, I'm not even sure how your example makes sense, this is how you calculate the average of 8d10:

(8*1 + 8*10) / 2 = 44

WTF does 'rounding' have to do with it?

Because the average result of a d10 is 5.5. For those saying that you always round down, you would have to apply that logic and round it to 5, which is wrong.

Dave Justus |

Dave Justus wrote:Jodokai wrote:I've been trying to think of other instances of comparing X to 1/2 of Y in the rules. Anyone have any examples?Okay, so to move this conversation along, I believe that the the rounding issue has been put to bed, you don't need to be told to round you just do it when you need to. I think the next thing we need to figure out is what Dave Justus wrote. Are we actually comparing numbers or just getting a Boolean value of yes/no?

I would argue against that logic because it would be the

onlytimes that I know of that would work like that. In every other instance you round, then compare.Yes, continuing damage when trying to cast a spell.

DC is 15 + 1/2 damage that round + spell level

So, you take 3 points continuing damage casting a 1st level spell, need a concentration check of 17 if you round down, 18 if you don't.

Note, nowhere does it 'ask' you to round that DC. And this is a boolean yes/no, succeed/fail result.

I'm pretty sure there are other 1/2 your level additions to other DC comparison checks as well.

Getting a DC is a number though. Clearly you have to calculate a DC. I mean something else similar to the gunslinger, where it is a straight forward something happens when X >= 1/2 Y.

_Ozy_ |

Because the average result of a d10 is 5.5. For those saying that you always round down, you would have to apply that logic and round it to 5, which is wrong.

o.O

Dude, what are you talking about? What mechanism in the game is this?

Where in the game are you forced to average multiple independent dice together instead of just using the much more efficient and mathematically correct method I posted above?

Here's a much better example:

When someone saves for half damage for a fireball, you take half of the result, not half of each die, rounded down, then added together. You simply don't do the math that way. Why? Because when you save it says you take 'half of the damage', not 'half if each individual die'. If it said the latter, then yes, you actually would halve each die, round down, and then total it up.

Similarly, when I'm taking half of someone's level, I don't take 1/2 of each individual level, round down to 0 and get 0. I take half of the total level, and then round.

Really, your argument here is way out in left field.

Prince Yyrkoon |

_Ozy_ wrote:Because the average result of a d10 is 5.5. For those saying that you always round down, you would have to apply that logic and round it to 5, which is wrong.HangarFlying wrote:Someone give me the average for 8d10. If you've been one to say that you always round down and come up with 44, you're a hypocrite. If you come up with 40, you're wrong.

EDIT: better example.

? I'm not sure what this even means.

Nobody is disputing that mathematically speaking, 5/2 = 2.5.

We are saying that in general, Pathfinder

treatsthat 2.5 as 2 unless specified otherwise.Furthermore, I'm not even sure how your example makes sense, this is how you calculate the average of 8d10:

(8*1 + 8*10) / 2 = 44

WTF does 'rounding' have to do with it?

And a common orc, one level of warrior, con 12, has 6 HP. 5.5 rounded down to 5+1.

N N 959 |

EDIT: better example.

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up.

Pathfinder/PFS actually had to create a FAQ for this because special rules are used.

Animal companions receive average hit points per hit die. For d8, the average is 4.5. Multiply 4.5 times the number of hit dice your animal companion has and round down. Recalculate hit points for your companion each time it gains additional hit dice. After its hit points are calculated, add in appropriate bonuses from its Constitution modifier, feats, and so on.

How do I determine hit points for my animal companion?

Here, we are specifically told what value to use, "4.5" and *when* to round down. 2 x 4.5 doesn't need to be rounded. 3 x 4.5 does and is. In addition, we are specifically told to "recalculate" the hit points with every new hit die rather than add another 4.5 which would be rounded down to 4, otherwise.

Why do you think that's necessary? Because normally, we'd round down to 4 before multiplying times the number of HD.

_Ozy_ |

_Ozy_ wrote:Getting a DC is a number though. Clearly you have to calculate a DC. I mean something else similar to the gunslinger, where it is a straight forward something happens when X >= 1/2 Y.Dave Justus wrote:Jodokai wrote:I've been trying to think of other instances of comparing X to 1/2 of Y in the rules. Anyone have any examples?Okay, so to move this conversation along, I believe that the the rounding issue has been put to bed, you don't need to be told to round you just do it when you need to. I think the next thing we need to figure out is what Dave Justus wrote. Are we actually comparing numbers or just getting a Boolean value of yes/no?

I would argue against that logic because it would be the

onlytimes that I know of that would work like that. In every other instance you round, then compare.Yes, continuing damage when trying to cast a spell.

DC is 15 + 1/2 damage that round + spell level

So, you take 3 points continuing damage casting a 1st level spell, need a concentration check of 17 if you round down, 18 if you don't.

Note, nowhere does it 'ask' you to round that DC. And this is a boolean yes/no, succeed/fail result.

I'm pretty sure there are other 1/2 your level additions to other DC comparison checks as well.

Mechanically, how is this any different. You are comparing two numbers to determine yes/no, succeed/fail.

Sure, in the one case you have a 'title' for that one number: DC

and in the other case you have an untitled 'level / 2' number. Surely you're not suggesting that you only round numbers that have labels like 'DCs' associated with them, are you?

In both cases you are comparing two numbers, with a boolean result. Nothing you have written has justified why one set gets rounded down and the other does not. Also, in both cases, not rounding is **functionally exactly** like rounding up. Think about it.

_Ozy_ |

Here, we are specifically told what value to use, "4.5" and

whento round down. In addition, we are specifically told to "recalculate" the hit points with every new hit die rather than add another 4.5 rounded down.Why do you think that's necessary? Because normally, we'd round down to 4.

Good catch, and exactly right.

Dave Justus |

Mechanically, how is this any different. You are comparing two numbers to determine yes/no, succeed/fail.

Sure, in the one case you have a 'title' for that one number: DC

and in the other case you have an untitled 'level / 2' number. Surely you're not suggesting that you only round numbers that have labels like 'DCs' associated with them, are you?

In both cases you are comparing two numbers, with a boolean result. Nothing you have written has justified why one set gets rounded down and the other does not. Also, in both cases, not rounding is

functionally exactlylike rounding up. Think about it.

To a large degree everything ends up being yes or no. I've already said directly that anytime you calculate a numerical result (a bonus, a DC, damage etc.) the rounding rule clearly applies. I am also well aware of mathematics and understand the functional equivalencies. Clearly, the question is whether a gunslinger of 5th level gets a panache point when he takes out a 2HD creature or if he has to take out at least a 3HD creature.

My question was if anyone had any other examples of an ability like the gunslinger, where the number you get (1 panache) has nothing to do with the comparison that includes a 1/2 value.

Frankly, I thought there were others, and I'm kind of surprised this is the only one anyone seems to know.

fretgod99 |

You're presuming that we're not ordinarily supposed to resolve all the calculations before rounding down. Again, that's nowhere in the rules. And it leads to silliness. It's like taking average hitpoints at each level. You altenate between high and low average because that extra .5 actually does matter. It accomplishes the same thing as recalculating at every level. Rounding before you finish the calculation is just plain silly.

Jodokai |

You're presuming that we're not ordinarily supposed to resolve all the calculations before rounding down. Again, that's nowhere in the rules. And it leads to silliness. It's like taking average hitpoints at each level. You altenate between high and low average because that extra .5 actually does matter. It accomplishes the same thing as recalculating at every level. Rounding before you finish the calculation is just plain silly.

Except that the calculation is level/2 or in the example 5/2. That's the calculation at the end of it, you round, THEN you compare it to the DC/HD/ or whatever.

BigDTBone |

_Ozy_ wrote:Because the average result of a d10 is 5.5. For those saying that you always round down, you would have to apply that logic and round it to 5, which is wrong.HangarFlying wrote:EDIT: better example.

? I'm not sure what this even means.

Nobody is disputing that mathematically speaking, 5/2 = 2.5.

We are saying that in general, Pathfinder

treatsthat 2.5 as 2 unless specified otherwise.(8*1 + 8*10) / 2 = 44

WTF does 'rounding' have to do with it?

No you don't, because dice averages don't happen during gameplay. So the rules governing gameplay do not apply to them. Unless you have an example of where the game asks you to average dice during gameplay.

Spoiler: you don't. Because if it happened during gameplay the game would tell you to ROLL the dice to determine the result.

Jodokai |

To a large degree everything ends up being yes or no. I've already said directly that anytime you calculate a numerical result (a bonus, a DC, damage etc.) the rounding rule clearly applies. I am also well aware of mathematics and understand the functional equivalencies. Clearly, the question is whether a gunslinger of 5th level gets a panache point when he takes out a 2HD creature or if he has to take out at least a 3HD creature.

My question was if anyone had any other examples of an ability like the gunslinger, where the number you get (1 panache) has nothing to do with the comparison that includes a 1/2 value.

Frankly, I thought there were others, and I'm kind of surprised this is the only one anyone seems to know.

The more I think about this, I think you're seeing it as different because there's the third party in there (the panache point), but I'm not sure that it is really different. I mean if you take a knowledge check:

The DC is 14.5 which rounds to 14. I got a 14 so I get that information.Compare that to:

Half of my level is 2.5 which rounds to 2. The monster's hit die is 2 so I get that panache.

HangarFlying |

Just because general rules call for rounding down in some circumstances doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half. Is 2HD greater than half of 5 HD? No, it is not. Since X.5 HD creatures do not exist, you must beat that .5 threshold to count. So if you're 5 HD, you must defeat a 3 HD creature to beat that threshold.

_Ozy_ |

_Ozy_ wrote:Mechanically, how is this any different. You are comparing two numbers to determine yes/no, succeed/fail.

Sure, in the one case you have a 'title' for that one number: DC

and in the other case you have an untitled 'level / 2' number. Surely you're not suggesting that you only round numbers that have labels like 'DCs' associated with them, are you?

In both cases you are comparing two numbers, with a boolean result. Nothing you have written has justified why one set gets rounded down and the other does not. Also, in both cases, not rounding is

functionally exactlylike rounding up. Think about it.To a large degree everything ends up being yes or no. I've already said directly that anytime you calculate a numerical result (a bonus, a DC, damage etc.) the rounding rule clearly applies. I am also well aware of mathematics and understand the functional equivalencies. Clearly, the question is whether a gunslinger of 5th level gets a panache point when he takes out a 2HD creature or if he has to take out at least a 3HD creature.

My question was if anyone had any other examples of an ability like the gunslinger, where the number you get (1 panache) has nothing to do with the comparison that includes a 1/2 value.

Frankly, I thought there were others, and I'm kind of surprised this is the only one anyone seems to know.

Well, I don't really agree. Things like bonuses, damage, hit points are numbers that get added and subtracted to other numbers, and these values are tracked. They are not boolean operations, but mathematical integer operations, like new_HP = current_HP - damage.

There is no yes/no involved in that particular operation, and I think everyone agrees that rounding is always done. Hitting with bonuses is, of course, a boolean comparison like you said.

The disagreements seem to like in comparison, boolean operations. Like knowledge DC checks, I guess concentration checks since they are exactly the same, and the swashbuckler panache ability.

I too agree that there aren't other boolean operations that rely on fractional values that I can find. I just see no reason why this would be the one, and only one, place where you don't actually round before you compare.

Obviously others think that you don't even round for DC checks.

But again, I think I must emphasize this because it's important:

For boolean comparisons **not rounding down is effectively rounding up** whether it's for the swashbuckler, DC knowledge checks, or successfully hitting an opponent, at least unless you also allow fractional values on the other side of the equation, which means keeping track of all fractional bonuses and modifiers.

BigDTBone |

Just because general rules call for rounding down in some circumstances doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half. Is 2HD greater than half of 5 HD? No, it is not. Since X.5 HD creatures do not exist, you must beat that .5 threshold to count. So if you're 5 HD, you must defeat a 3 HD creature to beat that threshold.

So now that your argument has been debunked you are not convinced? Have you been arguing in bad faith?

_Ozy_ |

3 people marked this as a favorite. |

Just because general rules call for rounding down in some circumstances doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half. Is 2HD greater than half of 5 HD? No, it is not. Since X.5 HD creatures do not exist, you must beat that .5 threshold to count. So if you're 5 HD, you must defeat a 3 HD creature to beat that threshold.

Um, no.

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

I create a Simulacrum of a 5HD creature. That creature has half the HD of the original. How many HD does that creature have?

In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

fretgod99 |

fretgod99 wrote:You're presuming that we're not ordinarily supposed to resolve all the calculations before rounding down. Again, that's nowhere in the rules. And it leads to silliness. It's like taking average hitpoints at each level. You altenate between high and low average because that extra .5 actually does matter. It accomplishes the same thing as recalculating at every level. Rounding before you finish the calculation is just plain silly.Except that the calculation is level/2 or in the example 5/2. That's the calculation at the end of it, you round, THEN you compare it to the DC/HD/ or whatever.

I was talking about calculating hit points. Different discussion because there's no question about rounding with hit points.

HangarFlying |

HangarFlying wrote:_Ozy_ wrote:Because the average result of a d10 is 5.5. For those saying that you always round down, you would have to apply that logic and round it to 5, which is wrong.HangarFlying wrote:EDIT: better example.

? I'm not sure what this even means.

Nobody is disputing that mathematically speaking, 5/2 = 2.5.

We are saying that in general, Pathfinder

treatsthat 2.5 as 2 unless specified otherwise.(8*1 + 8*10) / 2 = 44

WTF does 'rounding' have to do with it?

No you don't, because dice averages don't happen during gameplay. So the rules governing gameplay do not apply to them. Unless you have an example of where the game asks you to average dice during gameplay.

Spoiler: you don't. Because if it happened during gameplay the game would tell you to ROLL the dice to determine the result.

Sure, it's not something that happens in gameplay. And to answer the other question, the issue isn't that rounding is involved, it was that you don't drop the .5 for the average dice.

And, in reality, the .5 really doesn't go away, because you still use it for future calculations, you just can't get any practical use out of it until the next time you level up.

BigDTBone |

HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).I create a Simulacrum of a 5HD creature. That creature has half the HD of the original. How many HD does that creature have?

In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

This is the best argument in the thread yet, for either side.

Bandw2 |

Bandw2 wrote:I really wish more people understood integer math, and then pathfinder could just say, use integer math since there is no effective half level. AKA, you drop the remainder, and keep the whole number.The problem is the game itself gives fractional values for some things.

but the system would be so much simpler if it didn't, nor would much be lost.

1/2 CR should just be -1 or something.

HangarFlying |

HangarFlying wrote:

My argument hasn't been debunked at all. The average of a d10 is 5.5. You don't round down that .5 before applying it to further calculations. That was my argument.

HangarFlying |

HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).I create a Simulacrum of a 5HD creature. That creature has half the HD of the original. How many HD does that creature have?

In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

So, when you round down that 2.5 HD to 2 HD, is that actually half, or less than half? That you round down doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half.

Prince Yyrkoon |

BigDTBone wrote:My argument hasn't been debunked at all. The average of a d10 is 5.5. You don't round down that .5 before applying it to further calculations. That was my argument.HangarFlying wrote:

Which then gets rounded down. Again, see orc warrior hp.

_Ozy_ |

BigDTBone wrote:My argument hasn't been debunked at all. The average of a d10 is 5.5. You don't round down that .5 before applying it to further calculations. That was my argument.HangarFlying wrote:

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

You also don't half each die of a fireball if someone makes a save.

We're not talking about 'when' in the calculation you round, we're saying that you 'always' end up rounding. Whether that's when you calculate the DC, or calculate the level needed for panache. When the calculation is finished, you round.

Here's the calculation for the swashbuckler:

panache HD = level / 2

panache HD = 5 / 2

There, that's the calculation. You aren't 'saving it' to add to anything later, the calculation is finished, here is the result:

panache HD = 2

There is nothing further to calculate using that number, it is no ready to determine success or failure, yes or no, by comparing against another integer number.

Bandw2 |

_Ozy_ wrote:So, when you round down that 2.5 HD to 2 HD, is that actually half, or less than half? That you round down doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half.HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

then the simulacrum failed explicitly at fulfilling it's own spell's effect. it doesn't say it sometimes creates something with half HD.

in integer math, 2 is half of 5, btw.

_Ozy_ |

_Ozy_ wrote:So, when you round down that 2.5 HD to 2 HD, is that actually half, or less than half? That you round down doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half.HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

It can't be less than half. The spell says quite explicitly that the creature has half of the hit dice of the original.

Since the original is 5, and the copy is 2, then 2 is half of 5. It's pathfinder math.

Bandw2 |

HangarFlying wrote:_Ozy_ wrote:So, when you round down that 2.5 HD to 2 HD, is that actually half, or less than half? That you round down doesn't change the fact that it is still less than half.HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

It can't be less than half. The spell says quite explicitly that the creature has half of the hit dice of the original.

Since the original is 5, and the copy is 2, then 2 is half of 5. It's pathfinder math.

"always round down" secretly means it's integer math.

Kobold Cleaver |

N N 959 wrote:5 / 2 = 2.5 = 2 in Pathfinder math.Only when you are asked to round.

It seems to me that the "asked to" is an intuitive matter—when you are in a situation where you don't have an integer, you would logically need to round down.

For the record, I agree with this particular interpretation of the rules, but I can't think of many instances in Pathfinder where they explicitly ask you to round round. Usually, it's just taken for granted. See all the Domain abilities, for instance.

fretgod99 |

_Ozy_ wrote:This is the best argument in the thread yet, for either side.HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

It's a fair point, but again the question really turns to whether makinga calculation for functional purposes (we all know there aren't 1/2 HD) is the same as doing one for more comparative purposes. As I said before, there probably isn't, but I'm not going to assume a blanket statement like that, particularly when it results in silly math.

HangarFlying |

HangarFlying wrote:Which then gets rounded down. Again, see orc warrior hp.BigDTBone wrote:My argument hasn't been debunked at all. The average of a d10 is 5.5. You don't round down that .5 before applying it to further calculations. That was my argument.HangarFlying wrote:

Not debating that.

fretgod99 |

_Ozy_ wrote:"always round down" secretly means it's integer math.HangarFlying wrote:_Ozy_ wrote:HangarFlying wrote:Um, no.

Quote:In short, how many HD are half the HD of a 5HD creature?

It can't be less than half. The spell says quite explicitly that the creature has half of the hit dice of the original.

Since the original is 5, and the copy is 2, then 2 is half of 5. It's pathfinder math.

That's the annoying part - it isn't always round down. Typically, and particularly when you are rounding, it is round down. But not uniformly. Exceptions and all that.

Avoron |

2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Instead of looking at division, what if we look at **ratios**?

Level 5 Swashbuckler

2 HD creature

HD/Level=2/5

Check: **Is 2/5 less than 1/2?**

Yes.

No panache regained.

You don't even need to worry about what half of 5 is. And don't you dare start suggesting we round that 2/5 down to 0, because the same would apply to 4/5.

That seems like a much more effective way of looking at it. But honestly, it doesn't matter all that much.

Prince Yyrkoon |

Prince Yyrkoon wrote:Not debating that.HangarFlying wrote:Which then gets rounded down. Again, see orc warrior hp.BigDTBone wrote:HangarFlying wrote:

Oh? And pray tell, why not? It does seem rather relevant to your point, given that is an actual, in game application of an average die roll.

Kobold Cleaver |

1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Instead of looking at division, what if we look at

ratios?Level 5 Swashbuckler

2 HD creatureHD/Level=2/5

Check:

Is 2/5 less than 1/2?

Yes.

No panache regained.You don't even need to worry about what half of 5 is. And don't you dare start suggesting we round that 2/5 down to 0, because the same would apply to 4/5.

That seems like a much more effective way of looking at it. But honestly, it doesn't matter all that much.

You know what? This is the smartest point I've seen yet, in my admittedly biased opinion. Don't even involve the integers—just compare the fractions the rules provide. 2/5 is less than one half. Period.