I have had a lot of fun playing fighters. Not just through roleplaying but through my actual mechanical competence. That was until the levels started climbing. My party did not suddenly become more optimized. I was not suddenly outshined by casters because they themselves were not optimized in either build or prepared spells. My issue came at around level 9 or so because the encounters started to change dramatically.
The main issue I see with high level play is that without lots of spell support, range combat is your only option. But you had fun in low levels by spec-ing for melee. So how you address this? My thought is that you build melee at the start and then invest heavily into range combat for later levels. I generally dislike weapon focus because it limits you to one weapon, but for range combat the chances are that you only want to wield a longbow. So what if you dropped weapon focus on your secondary option? Could that help mitigate the difference between your strength and dexterity?
With that in mind, I made this build:
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave, +1 Strength
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw, +1 Strength
9 |Weapon training(Bows), Deadly Aim
10|Bravery, Weapon Focus(longbow)
11|Armor training, Greater Weapon Focus(longbow)
12|Point-Blank Shot, +1 Dexterity
13|Weapon training(Spears), Rapid Shot
14|Bravery, Manyshot
15|Armor training, Precise Shot
16|Improved Precise Shot, +1 Dexterity
17|Weapon training(Close), Pinpoint Targeting
18|Bravery, Farshot
19|Armor mastery, Improved Critical(longbow)
20|weapon mastery(greatsword), Improved Critical(greatsword), +1 Dexterity
Obviously your main role is as the party beat-stick. But when the monsters stop diving onto your sword, you can still fill them full of holes.
1. I think you are better off taking a Greater Belt of Mighty Hurling later on and tossing thrown weapons rather than spreading yourself so thin through STR and DEX.
2. Archetypes. The Fighters great issue is the low value of Weapon Training III and IV, as well as Armor Training III and IV, plus Bravery being a bit lackluster. Archetypes can turn that around easily. There are several archetypes which provide great upside - Mutation Warrior, Viking, Titan Fighter, Tower Shield Specialist, Two-Weapon Warrior, Lore Warden, Two-Handed Fighter, Mobile Fighter, Dervish of Dawn, Brawler, Archer, Crossbowman, and, if you want to get creative, Shielded Fighter ('cause it can allow you to flurry with Falcatas while having tons of utility).
Not using archetypes to your advantage seems like crippling yourself.
3. I see your character is not taking Improved Iron Will. Rerolling is worth about +5 to that check, could be good with shorter adventuring days. Honestly, the Fighter would be 100x times better if it got more uses of that feat somehow.
4. No Disruptive and Spellbreaker?
5. I like the Principled trait over Indomitable Will but both are good.
6. I think you'll realistically want Lightning Reflexes at some point.
7. If you wanted to mix Bows with regular fighting, I'd go with a Weapon Finesse build.
Level 15 is quite a long time to wait for Precise Shot. I would not recommend prioritizing Greater Weapon Focus over that, much less by four levels.
In contrast to the poster above me, I would recommend neither Improved Iron Will (which is awful, not worth Iron Will's +2, let alone +5) nor Lightning Reflexes (improve your Dex for archery and let that cover you here, especially since feats are always tight on a switch hitter).
I concur with taking a good look at archetypes.
One easy fix to help higher level melee fighters to stay relevant is a three level dip into the Horizon Walker prestige class. It lets you pick up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which helps a ton on the "can't full attack because the opponent is flying or farther than 5 feet away" problem that lots of melee characters have. Plus Horizon Walker has super easy prereqs so it shouldn't feel like you're going out of the way to enter into the class which is a nice perk.
One easy fix to help higher level melee fighters to stay relevant is a three level dip into the Horizon Walker prestige class. It lets you pick up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which helps a ton on the "can't full attack because the opponent is flying or farther than 5 feet away" problem that lots of melee characters have. Plus Horizon Walker has super easy prereqs so it shouldn't feel like you're going out of the way to enter into the class which is a nice perk.
Also solved as a Dervish of Dawn (full attacks while moving), Mobile Fighter (full attacks while moving also did I mention standard action full attacks also holy s#!# standard action full attacks), Mutation Warrior (dude flies), or by smart tactics combined with the Step Up feat.
You need to be able to fly at higher levels. Get some winged boots or something.
You need to be able to fly at higher levels. Get some winged boots or something.
That only helps so much.
The point of being good at bows is that you can just shoot the cowards that won't stand next to you.
Level 15 is quite a long time to wait for Precise Shot. I would not recommend prioritizing Greater Weapon Focus over that, much less by four levels.
In contrast to the poster above me, I would recommend neither Improved Iron Will (which is awful, not worth Iron Will's +2, let alone +5) nor Lightning Reflexes (improve your Dex for archery and let that cover you here, especially since feats are always tight on a switch hitter).
I concur with taking a good look at archetypes.
So my thought on precise shot is that if you are using the feat, you probably should be in the melee yourself.
One easy fix to help higher level melee fighters to stay relevant is a three level dip into the Horizon Walker prestige class. It lets you pick up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which helps a ton on the "can't full attack because the opponent is flying or farther than 5 feet away" problem that lots of melee characters have. Plus Horizon Walker has super easy prereqs so it shouldn't feel like you're going out of the way to enter into the class which is a nice perk.Also solved as a Dervish of Dawn (full attacks while moving), Mobile Fighter (full attacks while moving also did I mention standard action full attacks also holy s!!* standard action full attacks), Mutation Warrior (dude flies), or by smart tactics combined with the Step Up feat.
I'll have to discard dervish dawn for not being PRD.
Mobile fighter is still inherently earthbound. Just having quasi pounce does not absolve you from still being forced into range combat.
Oh I love the mutagen warrior Martial Master combo. The only issue with that and similarly dipping into Horizon Walker is that you are not really a fighter anymore.
One easy fix to help higher level melee fighters to stay relevant is a three level dip into the Horizon Walker prestige class. It lets you pick up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which helps a ton on the "can't full attack because the opponent is flying or farther than 5 feet away" problem that lots of melee characters have. Plus Horizon Walker has super easy prereqs so it shouldn't feel like you're going out of the way to enter into the class which is a nice perk.Also solved as a Dervish of Dawn (full attacks while moving), Mobile Fighter (full attacks while moving also did I mention standard action full attacks also holy s+$@ standard action full attacks), Mutation Warrior (dude flies), or by smart tactics combined with the Step Up feat.
Why not both? It's not like the Horizon Walker levels will invalidate or weaken the rest of the build and having an extra way to get at flying enemies or getting past the melee wall to get to the casters is hardly a bad thing.
One easy fix to help higher level melee fighters to stay relevant is a three level dip into the Horizon Walker prestige class. It lets you pick up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which helps a ton on the "can't full attack because the opponent is flying or farther than 5 feet away" problem that lots of melee characters have. Plus Horizon Walker has super easy prereqs so it shouldn't feel like you're going out of the way to enter into the class which is a nice perk.Also solved as a Dervish of Dawn (full attacks while moving), Mobile Fighter (full attacks while moving also did I mention standard action full attacks also holy s!!* standard action full attacks), Mutation Warrior (dude flies), or by smart tactics combined with the Step Up feat.I'll have to discard dervish dawn for not being PRD.
Mobile fighter is still inherently earthbound. Just having quasi pounce does not absolve you from still being forced into range combat.
Oh I love the mutagen warrior Martial Master combo. The only issue with that and similarly dipping into Horizon Walker is that you are not really a fighter anymore.
Eh, maybe with mutation warrior but you're definitely still a fighter going martial master. Horizon walker works if your race already has access to SLAs, otherwise yeah, you're mixing magic in your mundane. But seeing as you're already lit up like a christmas tree with magical equipment, being capable of minor magic yourself shouldn't be too immersion breaking (heck, you could refluff it as activating some slotless magic item and you'd be fine).
I will have to mention that I don't see a real benefit to pounce or pounce like mechanics. I am talking about the various situations where you just can't get within melee full attack range.
But let's talk about the "normal" issue of fighters losing all effectiveness when moving.
1. That is not entirely true. Getting an attack during your turn and then an AOO is two attacks at full BAB. Less damage than a full attack but still pretty devastating for "useless".
2. I just see pounce as too much damage. The GM will just crank up the difficultly or throw more encounters at you that prevent you from pouncing. Either the GM does that or he/she let's you just blender through encounters. I do not like either option.
I guess i just don't see it, then. Why not flying melee charges all day long?
If your real complaint is : i want to full attack more, but the bad guys are smart enough to move away, that's a bit different.
And there are feats for that. So, i don't see why anyone NEEDS to use a bow, though it's clear that you could.
Eh, maybe with mutation warrior but you're definitely still a fighter going martial master.
I am strictly talking about having both.
Horizon walker works if your race already has access to SLAs, otherwise yeah, you're mixing magic in your mundane. But seeing as you're already lit up like a christmas tree with magical equipment, being capable of minor magic yourself shouldn't be too immersion breaking (heck, you could refluff it as activating some slotless magic item and you'd be fine).
Eh if you want to be slinging spells and smacking things, there are far better classes for that.
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I guess i just don't see it, then. Why not flying melee charges all day long?
If your real complaint is : i want to full attack more, but the bad guys are smart enough to move away, that's a bit different.
And there are feats for that. So, i don't see why anyone NEEDS to use a bow, though it's clear that you could.
I get into the issue that the distances are far too long.
Taking 2 run actions and a charge to get to the enemy just as it is failing saves from spells does not seem all that useful.
Then there are things like fighting a dragon out in the open. They fly far faster than you can ever hope to keep up.
So, you need faster movement yourself as a counter, or a way to be sneakier, or a kind of teleportation.
Perhaps a flying mount would solve your issues? Pegasi are fast. Half-dragon warhorse?
Eh, maybe with mutation warrior but you're definitely still a fighter going martial master.I am strictly talking about having both.
Horizon walker works if your race already has access to SLAs, otherwise yeah, you're mixing magic in your mundane. But seeing as you're already lit up like a christmas tree with magical equipment, being capable of minor magic yourself shouldn't be too immersion breaking (heck, you could refluff it as activating some slotless magic item and you'd be fine).Eh if you want to be slinging spells and smacking things, there are far better classes for that.
I didn't mean that you should go for a magus-y feel after dipping Horizon Walker, more that since there's bound to be high levels of magic attached to your character that your character interacts with on a constant basis (magic sword, magic armor, magic cloak, magic belt, etc.), being able to dimension door X times per day really doesn't make the fighter less of a fighter. It's not so much the "look at me, I can pounce" aspect that makes Dimensional Dervish attractive (at least to me) but the part where it allows you to actually be mobile (running in straight lines does not make one mobile), attack flying enemies and slip past enemy defenses to take care of the more serious threats if you otherwise couldn't.
So, you need faster movement yourself as a counter, or a way to be sneakier, or a kind of teleportation.
Perhaps a flying mount would solve your issues? Pegasi are fast. Half-dragon warhorse?
A mount would be nice, but only good way to get that mount is either through leadership or riding a teammate/ally.
The actual mounted combat feats only marginally improve your combat ability from a mount.
The build suggested would invest heavily into the ride skill.
take care of the more serious threats if you otherwise couldn't.
And that is why I posited using a bow.
So, four feats on archery is simpler than one feat on Leadership?
I really am trying to help you here, but i feel like there are a lot of preferences for how the game works that you haven't stated. From here, it seems like one feat is easier.
take care of the more serious threats if you otherwise couldn't.And that is why I posited using a bow.
Which requires a high dex score, something that you wouldn't need otherwise and splits your stats too thin. Middling wisdom with low dex is much more forgiving than high dex with low wisdom. That and bows are easier to shut down than teleporting. Not to say that teleportation can't be shut down, but a wind wall, wall of force or just general cover is likely going to help out the enemy more than a dimensional anchor would so they'd be more likely prepared to throw those down.
Which requires a high dex score, something that you wouldn't need otherwise and splits your stats too thin. Middling wisdom with low dex is much more forgiving than high dex with low wisdom. That and bows are easier to shut down than teleporting. Not to say that teleportation can't be shut down, but a wind wall, wall of force or just general cover is likely going to help out the enemy more than a dimensional anchor would so they'd be more likely prepared to throw those down.take care of the more serious threats if you otherwise couldn't.And that is why I posited using a bow.
You need the high dex anyways as fighter with armor training.
So, four feats on archery is simpler than one feat on Leadership?
I really am trying to help you here, but i feel like there are a lot of preferences for how the game works that you haven't stated. From here, it seems like one feat is easier.
The use of leadership is a crap-shoot dependent on both the GM and the campaign.
You need the high dex anyways as fighter with armor training.Which requires a high dex score, something that you wouldn't need otherwise and splits your stats too thin. Middling wisdom with low dex is much more forgiving than high dex with low wisdom. That and bows are easier to shut down than teleporting. Not to say that teleportation can't be shut down, but a wind wall, wall of force or just general cover is likely going to help out the enemy more than a dimensional anchor would so they'd be more likely prepared to throw those down.take care of the more serious threats if you otherwise couldn't.And that is why I posited using a bow.
No, you get more mileage out of high dex, you don't need it. There is a BIG difference. Also, if you're getting that dex at the expense of your wisdom, that's not a wise decision. See what I did there? ;) I'll go hide in a corner now..
No, you get more mileage out of high dex, you don't need it. There is a BIG difference. Also, if you're getting that dex at the expense of your wisdom, that's not a wise decision. See what I did there? ;) I'll go hide in a corner now..You need the high dex anyways as fighter with armor training.Which requires a high dex score, something that you wouldn't need otherwise and splits your stats too thin. Middling wisdom with low dex is much more forgiving than high dex with low wisdom. That and bows are easier to shut down than teleporting. Not to say that teleportation can't be shut down, but a wind wall, wall of force or just general cover is likely going to help out the enemy more than a dimensional anchor would so they'd be more likely prepared to throw those down.take care of the more serious threats if you otherwise couldn't.And that is why I posited using a bow.
I never dump wis, but for fighter's I rarely raise it over 10.
You can have a mount through Animal Ally, plus Boon Companion. Three feats for a fully scaling mount is not bad.
With the Roughrider archetype, you can also pounce with your mount.
By the way, you really need to change your approach. Saying "oh, that fighter build us good but it cannot kill X" is a flawed criterion. Every class has their X.
A fighter should be the death trap that wizards try to exploit - so there's a flier? The wizard casts a spell to ground it, fighter gets into position, and through Stand Still, Step Up and the like, absolutely demolishes the opposition.
A grounding spell would mean more for party-wide damage than an evocation blast.
Not to mention Celestial Full Plate granting Fly.
One easy fix to help higher level melee fighters to stay relevant is a three level dip into the Horizon Walker prestige class. It lets you pick up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which helps a ton on the "can't full attack because the opponent is flying or farther than 5 feet away" problem that lots of melee characters have. Plus Horizon Walker has super easy prereqs so it shouldn't feel like you're going out of the way to enter into the class which is a nice perk.
mounted skirmisher addresses that as well… sure dimensional savant can be used in more places, but usually can only be done a few times per day, so it kinda 50/50s out.
I find, at higher levels, it seems the my mount can't go along, is usually mitigated because MANY of the enemies get big too (giants, dragons, purple worms… everything gets big!)
my fighters usually have a 13 int, and a 14 wis out of habit.
I usually have str between 14 and 16 (these are starting level 1 stats)
I find the extra skill point, the option to get the prereq CE feat and +2 will saves is worth it.
Im also able to pick up iron will because I'm not starved for feats that I want just to "make my concept work"
The non class ability scaling mount mentioned above is pretty neat as well, especially if your DM allows monsters as mounts.
Horses above 10th level get kinda…. bland.
Here is what the proposed build looks like at 14
What challenges at this level can you guys foresee this guy having lots of trouble with?
I would swap out Toughness and Deadly Aim for Disruptive and Spellbreaker. You don't want to let that cast off.
No Furious Focus is also extremely worrying.
I would take off the Cleaving feats, your job is rarely going to be the AOE sweeper. I'd also consider Stand Still or Step Up for battlefield utility and sticking to targets, which is going to be your main difficulty.
Swarmbane Clasp looks like it could help you be useful against those.
No Jingasa?!
How are you shooting past cover? Many Shot and Rapid Shot don't stack, I don't think you have the feats (even as a Fighter) to afford the Luxury.
No Cornugon Smash?
How are you shooting past cover? Many Shot and Rapid Shot don't stack, I don't think you have the feats (even as a Fighter) to afford the Luxury.
Uh not only do they stack. You can't prevent them from stacking. Manyshot does not give you the option to forgo its benefits.
You have also not been reading my comments.
A lot of good feedback.
Controlling a non-trained non-regular mount in battle is DC 25. But you are right in that highest normal DC I am looking at is 15. Bareback is another -5. I have this idea about riding odd things at some point. Non of the other skills are really worth investing in or if I invested, my mod would not be relevant.
Estimate primary ability DC for an APL+3 creature is 24. Will is weak, but it is only +4 behind fort. Things like dominate person grant a +4 and bravery takes care of fear effects. But yeah still a weakness.
OK
I would probably just drop DA. If it is a dragon boss, things like haste and heroism may be coming in from allies given the creatures high saves and SR.
Now I do have a +5 to acrobatics just from dex and no armor check penalty. So I only fail that roll on a 4 or lower. Let's see against AC 35, I could drop DA and shoot at +26/26/21/16 for 1d8+14 and I have manyshot. The breath weapon is fairly weak. I don't think I could kill it because it can just go invisible and fly away. Yeah at high levels it looks like the fighter just needs to be in a party.
What challenges at this level can you guys foresee this guy having lots of trouble with?
Looking at the posted character:
Will save is a weakness, but not gravely so. You've done what you can about it.
Attack bonuses and damage are good but not exceptional. Kind of comes with the territory as far as splitting your focus. It does give you less head room to eat penalties, whether Deadly Aim, Power Attack, or circumstance-related.
Firing into melee is a weakness and a large one, but we already discussed your plans for dealing with it. On the plus side, a lot of monsters at 14th level are big and have reach, so you'd want to remember certain aspects of the firing into melee rules:
If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.
Firing into cover is also a weakness and also a common one. The Rapid/Deadly attack bonus isn't high enough to just eat these penalties.
Vision is a weakness, and also a key archer quality, so that would be of concern. Perception is low for an archer but probably acceptable, but I might consider a way to see through both darkness and common vision blockers (fogs etc).
Bad mobility is a weakness. Yes, archery can help cover you here, but it is still very low and even with archery it can trip you up. If not Fly, then at least get Featherstep.
Resilience in general is a weakness. A full time archer can pay it much less attention, but for your goals of continuing to melee whenever possible, the low Con will hurt. Also no way to negate crits and an AC that is good but hardly ironclad. Melee will be a little hairy for you. Saves other than Will are just OK, not great. No items I see that will help you heal, recover, protect yourself, or withdraw if something bad happens to you in melee (or in other circumstances for that matter).
2h+archery leaves you with no grapple option to speak of, and with big investments in both melee and ranged weapons already, I don't foresee a very good backup melee weapon?
So...
I would say that overall, the character looks basically functional, but the split in focus is quite evident in the magic items even more than the feats. He is lacking in magic items that support the melee role (crit negation, difficult terrain mobility, recovery, maneuver defense), as well as magic items that support the archery role (vision, various misc.). You're left with very bare-bones wealth that helps with nothing but numbers.
You will need to lean quite heavily on party resources, I think, particularly when you do venture into melee, but with the right support, you will do OK. Without the right support, I think this could be a pretty frustrating character to play.
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The problem in your current build that I see, is that some feats are completely spread out without much need. Intimidating Prowess, Lunge, Quick Draw, are okay feats, but in your build serve somehow little purpose. You have Cleave, yet you focus on AoO's with greatsword. Your feat selection doesn't follow much sense to me from a optimization point of view. To be good or average in archery, focus on getting Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. That's two archery feats that you need.
You also seem to be assuming that you will get to buy whatever items you wish, but this is question for your GM I guess.
Adam
Quick Draw is good to switch means of attack while still full attacking.
I would say that overall, the character looks basically functional, but the split in focus is quite evident in the magic items even more than the feats. He is lacking in magic items that support the melee role (crit negation, difficult terrain mobility, recovery, maneuver defense), as well as magic items that support the archery role (vision, various misc.). You're left with very bare-bones wealth that helps with nothing but numbers.
Which is why Dervish of Dawn is so sexy as full melee.
Truly, Fighters are meant to specialize - hence the plethora of feats.
This is one of the fabled Fighter weaknesses: it's hard to make feats work for many things, so the Fighter needs to specialize. That's what makes Weapon Training such a wash - because you'll only need one group and you are spending the rest of your class budget into weapon trainings you won't use at the fullest.
I am curious of what this fighter would look like with actual gear as opposed to WBL gear.