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The summon monster and summon nature's ally spells allow you to summon various elementals. The newer bestiaries have new elemental types such as the Ice and Lightning elementals. It seems that most people are of the opinion that since there is no working saying that only the bestiary 1 elementals are allowed that any new elementals can be summoned also.
So here is the question: Are the bestiary 1 elementals such as the fire, water, earth, and air, elementals the only ones allowed to be summoned with the summon monster and nature's ally spells?
I'm going to say yes, unless the elementals you want to use have absolutely identical CR ratings.The summon monster and summon nature's ally spells allow you to summon various elementals. The newer bestiaries have new elemental types such as the Ice and Lightning elementals. It seems that most people are of the opinion that since there is no working saying that only the bestiary 1 elementals are allowed that any new elementals can be summoned also.
So here is the question: Are the bestiary 1 elementals such as the fire, water, earth, and air, elementals the only ones allowed to be summoned with the summon monster and nature's ally spells?
They do have the same CR ratings. As an example all Elder elementals are CR 11.
I think the intent(only after reading some dev post) is for only bestiary 1, but I am asking the questions because not many people play that way including myself. An IMO this is one of those things that does need to be stated officially because there is no RAW language to indicate this is even a possibility otherwise. I am going to keep playing the way I always have as a GM though. I just don't like unwritten rules that we are supposed to know about.
I just asked that question in the PFS Rules Forum and they said the result was based on some old comments the Developers said back when the Bestiary II first came out.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pj2q?Summon-Monster-Bestiary-2-additional-reso urces
Since then (2011) there has not beeen any offical Dev word on the matter. It seems by RAW you could, even by PFS Additional Resource page you could (since the text on Bestiary and Bestiary II is identical). The "core assumption" for PFS only lists Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, and the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
I don't see why not based on RAW, and that the elementals are the same CR and category and sizes. This topic seems to need some FAQ love.
YIDM
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I would have phrased it "Can the Bestiary 2 Elementals be summoned by the Summons Monster and Summon Natures Ally spells" but I imagine we're hoping for different outcomes. ;)
Reposted (with slight editing for this thread) from the thread that started this...
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As it currently stands...
default Pathfinder - Yes to Bestiary 2 elementals, by RAW they are allowed, no ruling, FAQ, or Errata has ever been issued saying otherwise.*
*(Yes SKR posted about it once, the original question he was answering was something else this was related, however if it didn't come from the Design Team account (or I guess maybe Bulmahn as lead) then that's still only RAI until one of those two verify it. That was the whole big hubbalo when they moved to this system, any other sources haven't ever been and aren't official rulings.)
PFS - No to Bestiary 2 elementals, by specific system rule
(The fact PFS has to make a specific rule about it tells you what they consider the default to be. If the rules didn't allow as written the Bestiary 2 elementals PFS wouldn't have to include a clause.)
Houserules - YMMV
I agree with FAQ'ing however it's been flagged before, I remember this coming up a few times a year since at least 2011, they've chosen not to address it. Cool if they finally do, though I hate to see the already nerfed SNA list nerfed more, it (kind of) needed this more than SM, but I'm not holding my breath.
I suspect they've been deliberately leaving it as a semi-ambiguous GM call in everyone's own games.
Right now, a GM can say Yes to it and he's got RAW on his side.
Right now, a GM can say No to it, and he's got some RAI and PFS's system rules on his side.
Basically if they let it stand as is everyone can be happy and sort of right.
My guess is that's why it's been deliberately back burnered, especially over other FAQs which were needed for rules paradox, current rules disfunction, or balance reasons (which this is none of).
I will also point out, we have not seen a single elemental since Beastiary 2. Admittedly, there are not really many more they could do. (steam and sandstorm perhaps, and the abstract ones like gravity and time that 3pp have made)
Yeah, I don't think this is a balance issue. They're still generally the low CR for their summon level and SM still has better options (mass summoning Lanterns, mass summoning Bralani's for group lightening shots, Succubus and Lillend shenanigans, the Cleric in a bottle of SM IX) while SN was mildly nerfed in PF and a little love would kind of balance it a bit in the right direction for summoning focused Druids who aren't as close to their shtick in the era of Summoners.
I do concede that the other side has RAI points though, and it also isn't like SN would be weak if they ruled core 4 only (Earth is still by far the best in most generic cases and Air would be #2 or #3 even if you had all 8).
I've wondered if in that new release... Pathfinder Unchained is it? ... which is like a Pathfinder.5, redoing and adding options to the older stuff... if maybe they're planning on adding new or optional summoning lists for SM and SNA?
That could explain why they're holding off now, if they did that then after it comes out they could officially rule "Core RAW is Bestiary 1 only", while then handing us through Unchained updated/expanded/diverse summon lists, or better yet options for a caster to customize his list, to make the other side happy too.
... and if they're not doing that, they should do that then give me a tiny credit for the idea in the "special thank's". ;)
FAQing so we actually get a clarification on this. I feel like the answer won't be what people want though (IE they will restrict it to core 4 only).
... they will restrict it to core 4 only).
Yeah, if they're going to do that though I guess at least better to pull the band aid off quick so to speak. I'd call it 50/50 at best, simplicity of books would side with rewording to just the B1 four but, since as RAW stands the B2 four are usable, any wording errata to exclude B2 might require some edit to the CRB text and they've said they're loathe to do that. Because of that, this might get to be the one exception that stays. Here's hoping. S:NA could use it. If not oh well. It's only a small nudge either way as far as balance or simplicity is concerned, nothing breaks either way, this is a molehill not a mountain (probably hence why it hasn't been addressed so far).
What about the invisible stalker from core?
It is a medium air elemental, can you summon it with summon nature's ally 4?
Only if you want to ignore the loaded nature of the question and pretend ["Elemental (Size)", specific-name-of-bestiary-creatures like every other summons] is the same as ["medium {size}" "air {subtype}" "elemental {subtype}", all separate size-and-subtype-notes, with the name of the creature never mentioned unlike every other summons on those lists].
If you can find someone to bite onto that go right ahead.
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What about the invisible stalker from core?
It is a medium air elemental, can you summon it with summon nature's ally 4?
No. They(the spells) mean the Elementals such as the ones I listed, not any elemental that has the subtype.
No. They(the spells) mean the Elementals such as the ones I listed, not any elemental that has the subtype.What about the invisible stalker from core?
It is a medium air elemental, can you summon it with summon nature's ally 4?
Just for clarities sake, for any others that come to the thread and/or in case it needs to be stated, the other four being discussed are...
Ice Elementals
Lightening Elementals
Magma Elementals
Mud Elementals
...from Bestiary 2, as they share identical nomenclature with the Bestiary 1 elementals thus by RAW they are currently allowed but by RAI this question exists (as they'd be the only non-B1 creatures but that might also, by itself, not be a big deal).
Nothing else is being asked of the Dev's here as nothing else fits this criteria.
[wish we could edit that into the original question]
No. They(the spells) mean the Elementals such as the ones I listed, not any elemental that has the subtype.What about the invisible stalker from core?
It is a medium air elemental, can you summon it with summon nature's ally 4?Just for clarities sake, for any others that come to the thread and/or in case it needs to be stated, the other four being discussed are...
Ice Elementals
Lightening Elementals
Magma Elementals
Mud Elementals...from Bestiary 2, as they share identical nomenclature with the Bestiary 1 elementals thus by RAW they are currently allowed but by RAI this question exists (as they'd be the only non-B1 creatures but that might also, by itself, not be a big deal).
Nothing else is being asked of the Dev's here as nothing else fits this criteria.
[wish we could edit that into the original question]
The reason I did not state "Bestiary 2" elementals is because they might make more of them in another book. By asking the question in the manner that it is in the opening post it also covers future books, but you are correct. Currently it only applies to the bestiary 2 elementals.
The reason I did not state "Bestiary 2" elementals is because they might make more of them in another book. By asking the question in the manner that it is in the opening post it also covers future books, but you are correct. Currently it only applies to the bestiary 2 elementals.
Fair enough, though I will point out that next month is the 4 year anniversary of Bestiary 2 being published and in all that time nothing else has come up that would add to this question directly. When this is the same question for almost half a decade, and the RAW has remained unchanged and isn't unclear, then functionally, if admittedly not theoretically, this is just about that RAI.
I don't expect new elementals for every bestiary, and there are a lot of other monsters that have to be covered so it might not be for another 3 years that we see a new set. I don't see how just specifying bestiary 2 helps because we might have to do it again for bestiary 7. But I am also of the mind that you should write the rules to account for future rules whenever possible.
PS: I also think that if they say no or yes for bestiary 2 the next set of elementals will get the same answer.
... But I am also of the mind that you should write the rules to account for future rules whenever possible.
... then let's at least acknowledge their current lack of changing of the status quo might be the official answer to this (at least for now).
It can always be house ruled away.
PFS has society ruled it away.
In the future, if more elementals are made in Bestiary (insert number here) they can re-address it then. They may find it balanced enough now but want to reserve the right to change their mind in the future.
Right now though let's acknowledge that, unless this does get answered, and if it does obviously we'll go from there, 4 years of no change might be the answer as this is currently just about B1 and B2.
I don't care about PFS when it comes to official rules. What Mike or the next guy in charge changes is beyond the scope of this FAQ.
Also if your statement is true then they will only look at current options anyway, and we can always FAQ it again when the next set of elementals comes up if they come into being at all.
If you go by RAW it would be ok to summon other elementals than those found in the bestiary 1. In the summonable monster list there is no list of elementals, it just says: Elementals and a size in brackets. As long as what you are summoning is a elemental (small) it does not matter what book it's from.
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As I mentioned in the previous thread, SKR was quoted here as noting that the spell didn't include elementals outside the Bestiary.
Also in the other thread it was shown this was confirmed for PFS.
The summon monster spells are balanced based solely on the list provided in the Core rulebook and the Bestiary. Additional monsters only come by worshipping a specific god, and thus limited to adding a small number of monsters across the entire list, or picking up feats or items that add to the list.
If you want to change this for a home game go ahead, but the devs have spoken repeatedly about their intent.
As I mentioned in the previous thread, SKR was quoted here as noting that the spell didn't include elementals outside the Bestiary.
Also in the other thread it was shown this was confirmed for PFS.
The summon monster spells are balanced based solely on the list provided in the Core rulebook and the Bestiary. Additional monsters only come by worshipping a specific god, and thus limited to adding a small number of monsters across the entire list, or picking up feats or items that add to the list.
If you want to change this for a home game go ahead, but the devs have spoken repeatedly about their intent.
And as we told you in the other thread, SKR making a private comment is not a rules source and PFS is not a rules source. If it doesn't come from the Design Team account or a FAQ/errata then it is the RAI of one Dev.
By RAW, There Is Currently No Question That Bestiary 2 Elemetnals Are Allowed. The wording clearly allows them as it is written.
If it didn't then society wouldn't have to state a house rule on it, as they go by RAW that would be redundant. They had to add that rule because as written the Bestiary 2 elementals are inclusive in the wording and after 4 years the developers have never felt the need to errata that out.
So in your home game you can ban them with your house rule.
In society they are prevented by society rules.
However in default Pathfinder, unless the Design Team or an update says otherwise, they are currently 100% RAW legal and it isn't even ambiguous (and RAI can be argued either way, you have a SKR offhand quote, we have 4 years of them as a team never changing it or officially taking a stance against it).
That is their choice. HOWEVER, this thread is specifically about the ELEMENTALS from Beastiary 2 (and any future elementals that use the same nomenclature, ie small Steam Elementals).
Exactly
Are the bestiary 1 elementals such as the fire, water, earth, and air, elementals the only ones allowed to be summoned with the summon monster and nature's ally spells?
One of the problems I have with the questions phrasing is it is kind of loaded to one viewpoint of this.
There really are three options.
+The Core/B1 list + B2 Elementals they are okay with as it's balanced as is and not worth changing [as it stands now]
+They just want the B1 list as that was really RAI they just forgot to toss a note into B2 or somewhere [what I believe Wraithstrike believes though I could be wrong]
+They want to include B2 AND future Elementals [which is asking them to judge now on things not even made yet]
I don't like that this question forces them into only 2 answers. They must answer yes to only B1 or Yes to everything to follow ever, it's phrased to not allow them to say "Yes to B1 and B2 Elementals, but no to anything else." (Which I still say their lack of response has made that their official answer currently).
I think the question should have been specific to the B2 elementals, allowing them to keep them RAW legal as they have been for years, while allowing them the option of excluding any further elementals with a tiny note in any future bestiaries or a rules errata or FAQ at such a time if it is needed.
So that is my issue, albeit maybe a minor one because they can reword the question if they need, choosing to phrase it this way, even if not deliberate, still takes out one option to lump a reasonable (and the current) option in with a riskier one in a way that favors the question in one direction.
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sorry to Tread Necro something this old... but this has come up resently....
Is the following CURRENTLY True (in PFS)...
- No to Bestiary 2 elementals, by specific system rule
(The fact PFS has to make a specific rule about it tells you what they consider the default to be. If the rules didn't allow as written the Bestiary 2 elementals PFS wouldn't have to include a clause.)
and if it is true, can someone point me at the "specific system rule" being referenced?
Thanks!
edit: Found it! Thanks everyone!.