Favored Enemy: Humanoids

[Josh-o-Lantern]

Sooooo... This has been bugging me for awhile now and I thought I'd get some opinions...

Favored Enemy: Humanoid (subtype) - stupid or stupid beyond reason?

If I take Aberrations I can tell the right way to stab 60 breeds of land octopus. Things that almost never have two things in common within their own breeds let alone the entire classification... and some how FE: Human doesn't carry over to FE: Dwarf.

I'm considering dropping the entire subtype bit from the class, but I wanted to know if anyone else has gone the route and how it turned out.

[Zhayne]

It's purely a game balance thing. Aberrations are rare, humanoids are freakin' everywhere. I agree, FE is pretty stupid. You supposedly get this bonus from knowledge, but you get it even if you have no idea what you're fighting, or if you think you're fighting something else (you have FE: Evil outsiders and fight a demon disguised as a human? You get the bonus.)

FE is likely the most metagamey thing in the entire game ... it doesn't function otherwise. I'm just going to pick up Rogue Genius Games' Talented Ranger and then ban FE because of its utter nonsense.

[The Shaman]

Conceptually, it is iffy at best, but I'd have to say - FE human is almost always a safe pick, and depending on the campaign elves or orcs may also be good choices. So from a game balance perspective, it works okay.

Feel free to have an archetype ability as the "default" option, like what the guide or the slayer get, but don't be surprised if every ranger picks FE (humanoids) if given half the choice.

[Cap. Darling]

Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

Sooooo... This has been bugging me for awhile now and I thought I'd get some opinions...

Favored Enemy: Humanoid (subtype) - stupid or stupid beyond reason?

If I take Aberrations I can tell the right way to stab 60 breeds of land octopus. Things that almost never have two things in common within their own breeds let alone the entire classification... and some how FE: Human doesn't carry over to FE: Dwarf.

I'm considering dropping the entire subtype bit from the class, but I wanted to know if anyone else has gone the route and how it turned out.

Humanoids are less slave to there Nature than most of the other types so pehaps they act and behave very differently compared to the other groups. But really if you plan to let the ranger have favored enemy humanoids(all) i think you need to give the other classes a serious boost as well. Unless the ranger is your BF/GF;)

Edit: it is a balance thing. But if you double the figthers weapon training bonus, and let the paladin smite non evils you can use humanoids(all) as favored enemy. IMOP.

[Mysterious Stranger]

As people have stated it is for game balance reason. Humanoids are the most common creature type you will ever encounter. How many adventures have you been on, or even heard of that did not have any humanoids? Pretty much every city, village or town is full of them. What you suggest is going to mean that every ranger is always going to take this as his favored enemy and will completely dominate most urban encounters. Don’t forget that rangers also get the bonus to bluff, knowledge’s, perception, sense motive, and survival. Favored enemy human is almost overpowered by itself, and having it apply to all humanoids is going to be completely overpowering.

As far as getting it vs a creature that is in disguise I consider this to be subconscious recognition of the creature’s true type. Maybe the demon is moving in a way that triggers an automatic response. It’s too subtle for you to notice outright but you instinctively react to it.

[Master of the Dark Triad]

Zhayne wrote:

It's purely a game balance thing. Aberrations are rare, humanoids are freakin' everywhere. I agree, FE is pretty stupid. You supposedly get this bonus from knowledge, but you get it even if you have no idea what you're fighting, or if you think you're fighting something else (you have FE: Evil outsiders and fight a demon disguised as a human? You get the bonus.)

FE is likely the most metagamey thing in the entire game ... it doesn't function otherwise. I'm just going to pick up Rogue Genius Games' Talented Ranger and then ban FE because of its utter nonsense.

Modify it, then. Don't ban it entirely. That's ridiculous.

[Ms. Pleiades]

As said before, it's a game balance thing. However, balance issues of a FE: Humanoids(all) could be remedied with a setting in which humanoids are rather rare in and of themselves. It'd likely require your own setting built from scratch, but it could be made to work.

[Dafydd]

I would rework it into FE Humanoid (Common), Humanoid (Uncommon) and then leave the specific rare races (dark stalkers, elementalkins, eastern races)

Thus you have a FE covering the 5 most common races, elves, dwarves, humans, gnomes, halflings, an FE covering the uncommon ones such as drow, orcs, ogres, goblins etc.

Also, if the dragon is disguised as a human and the ranger has FE humanoid common, give em the bonus to hit, but not on damage.

At least that makes it worthwhile for the ranger to take multiple types.

[Kelazan]

I use this list in my home games for the purpose of favored enemy and Bane. There is few arbitrary choices, I admit it (Strix and Wayangs...). By common humanoid, I am referring to anatomy and/or culture. For instance, Changelings are pretty uncommon, but they are mostly raised as human/other common humanoids. Same for the Samsarans.

ALTERNATE HUMANOID SUB-TYPES

Common: Human, Elf, Halfling, Dwarf, Orc, Samsaran, Gnome and Changelings

Feral: Ratfolk, Catfolk, Vanara, Vishkanya, Nagaji, Sasquatch, Shapechangers, Tengu, Kitsune, Grippli, Lizardfolk, Adlet, Charau-Ka, and Gnoll

Aquatic: Gillmen, Boggard, Locathah, Merfolk, Merrow, Giant (ocean) and Giant (marsh)

Subterranean: Dark Folk, Drow, Duergar, Troglodytes, Svirfneblin, Derro, and Kobold

Goblinoid: Goblin, Hobgobelin, Bugbear, Skulk, Strix and Wayang

Giant: all Giants

Dhampirs are Undead and Androids are Construct for the purpose of Bane and favored enemy.

[Zhayne]

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

It's purely a game balance thing. Aberrations are rare, humanoids are freakin' everywhere. I agree, FE is pretty stupid. You supposedly get this bonus from knowledge, but you get it even if you have no idea what you're fighting, or if you think you're fighting something else (you have FE: Evil outsiders and fight a demon disguised as a human? You get the bonus.)

FE is likely the most metagamey thing in the entire game ... it doesn't function otherwise. I'm just going to pick up Rogue Genius Games' Talented Ranger and then ban FE because of its utter nonsense.

Modify it, then. Don't ban it entirely. That's ridiculous.

Care to back that assertion up?

The ability is boring, nonsensical, and so ludicrously metagamey it makes my head hurt. Even beyond 'you get the bonus even if you don't know what you're fighting', it's entirely possible for the ability to be USELESS unless the GM lets you know what sort of enemies you'll be facing for the next few levels.

I can find absolutely no reason to keep this ability in my games.

[Chengar Qordath]

Zhayne wrote:

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

It's purely a game balance thing. Aberrations are rare, humanoids are freakin' everywhere. I agree, FE is pretty stupid. You supposedly get this bonus from knowledge, but you get it even if you have no idea what you're fighting, or if you think you're fighting something else (you have FE: Evil outsiders and fight a demon disguised as a human? You get the bonus.)

FE is likely the most metagamey thing in the entire game ... it doesn't function otherwise. I'm just going to pick up Rogue Genius Games' Talented Ranger and then ban FE because of its utter nonsense.

Modify it, then. Don't ban it entirely. That's ridiculous.

Care to back that assertion up?

The ability is boring, nonsensical, and so ludicrously metagamey it makes my head hurt. Even beyond 'you get the bonus even if you don't know what you're fighting', it's entirely possible for the ability to be USELESS unless the GM lets you know what sort of enemies you'll be facing for the next few levels.

I can find absolutely no reason to keep this ability in my games.

Have to say I'm not overly fond of favored enemy or terrain either, for the reasons you outline. I see no issues with house-ruling them away so long as the ranger is getting something else of roughly equal value to replace it.

[Lincoln Hills]

Looks like a few posters are missing Josh-o-Lantern's general complaint - he's not upset about Favored Enemy: Humanoid having subtypes. Seems he's more upset about the logical disconnect - some catch-all categories (magical beast, aberration, and outsider come to mind) cover a huge range in diversity - while the relatively minor physiological differences between, say, a goblin and a halfling prevent any of your extensive expertise in (say) stabbing halflings from translating at all when it's goblin time.

Balanced? Only somewhat.
Easier than inventing 'categories' distinct from creature types? Absolutely.
Does it make sense in-game? No, not really.

[Zhayne]

Heck, it doesn't even make sense with the humanoid subtypes. A goblin ranger isn't going to fight anything like a goblin sorcerer, but you still get the bonus. Heck, a goblin and a bugbear are both goblinoids, and you're going to tell me a goblin sorcerer and a bugbear ranger are so similar ... bleah.

[fatbaldbloke]

Maybe replace it with a slightly accelerated version of the Slayer's 'Studied Target' ability?

[Purple Dragon Knight]

favored enemy humans also work on half-orcs and half-elves: it is not only a safe pick, but an extremely powerful option... this can vary depending on the campaign yes, but most published APs make heavy use of human NPCs / enemies.

I'm running Skulls and Shackles now, and the enemies are almost exclusively humans, so our ranger with favored enemy human is extremely powerful... and makes almost every encounter a cake walk for the party.

[Melkiador]

If you are wanting to house rule, consider FE:Humanoids(all/2) and allow it to apply to all humanoids, but for half value.

[LazarX]

Zhayne wrote:

IFE is pretty stupid. You supposedly get this bonus from knowledge, but you get it even if you have no idea what you're fighting, or if you think you're fighting something else (you have FE: Evil outsiders and fight a demon disguised as a human? You get the bonus.)

No, you don't get the bonus if you don't realize what you're fighting. The DM may secretly give you the bonus to perception or similar checks to get the true picture though. (This is one reason why DM's should have copies of all sheets, or in PFS tables have index cards with the PC's special senses, (lowlight, darkvision, trapfinding, FC bonuses, etc....) on hand. Makes for easier handling of initiative as well.

[ohako]

oh, you know, this is cute

Favored enemy (core races)
Favored enemy (featured races) (even though some of these are outsiders)
Favored enemy (uncommon races)

I could see that as a good compromise. Although, take favored enemy core races and find out the campaign involves infiltrating the Kitty Cat Empire or something...

[deusvult]

If the OP is looking for "realistic" reasons that favored enemy: humanoids(humans) gives no benefit whatsoever when fighting, say, dwarves, I'll have to agree that the notion expressed several times upthread. The entire quest is folly because the enforced breakdown has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with game balance.

However, if one really insists on looking for some realistic reasons why (perhaps to justify some suspension of disbelief) here are some suggestions:

The role of fighting styles in differentiating humanoid subtypes. if you know all about how to combat someone using jujutsu, it doesn't necessarily mean all that same knowledge is applicable to someone who's using karate. Consider that those vastly different fighting styles are both examples of what a single race can muster. Imagine how different martial traditions must be for species that have measurably different physical characteristics.

Now factor in those slight differences in anatomy between humans and dwarves. Not only are their martial traditions bound to be different, their very movements in execution of combat will be different as well simply because of the differences in physiology. A ranger with humans as a favored enemy will be prepared to handle the human's reach and flexibility, yet that training won't apply to the more direct and powerful motions necessitated by a dwarf's stubbier (shorter, more powerful) limbs.

Ad nauseam.

As a reminder, I'm not trying to convince the OP of the realism involved behind forcing Favored Enemy: Humanoids to also choose a subtype. For the second time, I'll stress agreement that it's first and foremost a purely metagame concern about keeping the ability balanced. The last few paragraphs aren't meant to stand up to intense scrutiny; they're just there to help someone having trouble with a suspension of disbelief.

[Josh-o-Lantern]

Kelazan wrote:

I use this list in my home games for the purpose of favored enemy and Bane. There is few arbitrary choices, I admit it (Strix and Wayangs...). By common humanoid, I am referring to anatomy and/or culture. For instance, Changelings are pretty uncommon, but they are mostly raised as human/other common humanoids. Same for the Samsarans.

ALTERNATE HUMANOID SUB-TYPES

Common: Human, Elf, Halfling, Dwarf, Orc, Samsaran, Gnome and Changelings

Feral: Ratfolk, Catfolk, Vanara, Vishkanya, Nagaji, Sasquatch, Shapechangers, Tengu, Kitsune, Grippli, Lizardfolk, Adlet, Charau-Ka, and Gnoll

Aquatic: Gillmen, Boggard, Locathah, Merfolk, Merrow, Giant (ocean) and Giant (marsh)

Subterranean: Dark Folk, Drow, Duergar, Troglodytes, Svirfneblin, Derro, and Kobold

Goblinoid: Goblin, Hobgobelin, Bugbear, Skulk, Strix and Wayang

Giant: all Giants

Dhampirs are Undead and Androids are Construct for the purpose of Bane and favored enemy.

Having read over all the comments, and thank you for them, I think I might like this one the best.