Does Snap Shot allow you to use a ray spell as an AoO?


Rules Questions

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Dragonchess Player wrote:


Now there are some very specific cases where you could pull this kind of trick off: chill touch modified with Reach Spell is one

Actually, this recently came up in another thread (entitled "Chill Touch") that I posted. It was suggested that using it in this way would fall victim to the "can't hold ranged touch charge" rule.

Scarab Sages

Not sure it applies, but the Call Lightning Storm comes to mind with ranged AoOs. Mind you, this one is not a ray.


Call Lightning is not a ranged attack. It is an affect similar to the Lightning Bolt spell except that it is vertical instead of horizontal.


@Wraithstrike I understand all that, but like you said, a rule can not be broken unless by another rule (in which it is its intent), no more. Snap shot specifically calls out to bows, revolvers would be more than what the rule states. But, someone had a good point earlier. There's no mention of it requiring a free action to cock the hammer on a revolver. Honestly, there need be no mention of pulling an arrow either though, that should be as obvious as cocking the hammer on the revolver.


jimibones83 wrote:
@Wraithstrike I understand all that, but like you said, a rule can not be broken unless by another rule (in which it is its intent), no more. Snap shot specifically calls out to bows, revolvers would be more than what the rule states. But, someone had a good point earlier. There's no mention of it requiring a free action to cock the hammer on a revolver. Honestly, there need be no mention of pulling an arrow either though, that should be as obvious as cocking the hammer on the revolver.

OK. I get your point now. You are right. I am not reading the rules text, but if snap shot specifically only calls out bows as opposed to ranged attacks in general then that is all it applies to.

With pulling an arrow(ammunition) I the intent was clear, but since Paizo rules are supposed to call out any rules exceptions it needed to be done for consistency, otherwise someone could say "well you can draw an arrow for snapshot and that was not mentioned so why can't I ______"

It is good to keep the rules clean and consistent. Yes, I know there are still exceptions.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:


OK. I get your point now. You are right. I am not reading the rules text, but if snap shot specifically only calls out bows as opposed to ranged attacks in general then that is all it applies to.

With pulling an arrow(ammunition) I the intent was clear, but since Paizo rules are supposed to call out any rules exceptions it needed to be done for consistency, otherwise someone could say "well you can draw an arrow for snapshot and that was not mentioned so why can't I ______"

It is good to keep the rules clean and consistent. Yes, I know there are still exceptions.

The version on d20pfsrd.com does not refer just to bows but refers to ranged weapons.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bill Dunn wrote:
The version on d20pfsrd.com does not refer just to bows but refers to ranged weapons.

d20pfsrd.com, however, is not an authoritative source of the rules.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Just as a notice: using a held charge of a melee touch spell for an attack of opportunity is certainly an option, but not for ranged touch spells, as "ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn", unless the spell specifically says so.


Zaister wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
The version on d20pfsrd.com does not refer just to bows but refers to ranged weapons.

d20pfsrd.com, however, is not an authoritative source of the rules.

I have never seen a discrepancy in the text between the pfsrd and the rulebooks. The words for Snap Shot from the PFSRD are verbatim from Ultimate Combat.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That does not change the fact.


Zaister wrote:
That does not change the fact.

Change what fact? That 99.999% of the time you will be just fine relying on the PFSRD to check the rules? Yeah, if you want to argue with a PFS GM, you'll need the books. But here on the forum, the PFSRD is more than satisfactory to discuss the rules. People will point out rather quickly if the words are different.

And, as I said, these words are verbatim from Ultimate Combat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Zaister wrote:
That does not change the fact.

That they all have the same wording? PRD has the same wording?

Just how many identical official sources are required?

Were you offended by the mentioning d20pfsrd.com exists?

Lantern Lodge

Snap Shot wrote:

With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent's defenses.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.

d20pfsrd.com is not an authoritive source (even though most of the time it's literally a copy paste from the book, I've yet to see a discrepancy), but the PRD is. Snap Shot affects -all- ranged weapons.

Now, what people are referencing is taking free actions out side of your turn, since drawing your arrow is a free action. That was handled with:

Faq wrote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

Some are incorrectly recalling that FAQ as applying only to drawing arrows, but it is for all ranged weapons.


jimibones83 wrote:

@GM I agree. It states nowhere that you can not use magic to make an AoO. The only question seems to be, is a person wielding the ray when the target provokes.

Personally, I would consider a magic user to always be wielding magic, but perhaps not the ray specically.

I would have to disagree. If that were the case any unarmed caster with access to a touch spell would be armed and threaten. A caster wirth combat reflexes would be able to cast 3+ spells a round.

If you are holdin the charge of a cast shocking grasp or chill touch, you can discharge it with an AoO but not cast it.


Bill Dunn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


OK. I get your point now. You are right. I am not reading the rules text, but if snap shot specifically only calls out bows as opposed to ranged attacks in general then that is all it applies to.

With pulling an arrow(ammunition) I the intent was clear, but since Paizo rules are supposed to call out any rules exceptions it needed to be done for consistency, otherwise someone could say "well you can draw an arrow for snapshot and that was not mentioned so why can't I ______"

It is good to keep the rules clean and consistent. Yes, I know there are still exceptions.

The version on d20pfsrd.com does not refer just to bows but refers to ranged weapons.

Bill you are correct.

PRD wrote:

Snap Shot (Combat)

With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent's defenses.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.

Jimibones this also works with guns so no need for Bows to be called out.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Snap Shot wrote:

With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent's defenses.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.

d20pfsrd.com is not an authoritive source (even though most of the time it's literally a copy paste from the book, I've yet to see a discrepancy),

It happens, but not a lot. I have fixed a few mistakes in the past. The owner of the site is also good about getting it fixed if it is brought to his attention.

Most of the time it more due to incomplete jobs in my experience than someone taking liberty with the wording of the rules.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Snap Shot wrote:

With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent's defenses.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.

d20pfsrd.com is not an authoritive source (even though most of the time it's literally a copy paste from the book, I've yet to see a discrepancy), but the PRD is. Snap Shot affects -all- ranged weapons.

Now, what people are referencing is taking free actions out side of your turn, since drawing your arrow is a free action. That was handled with:

Faq wrote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.
Some are incorrectly recalling that FAQ as applying only to drawing arrows, but it is for all ranged weapons.

I was not trying to imply that only arrows worked. My point was that drawing/loading ammo was something that needed to be written out. That is why I supported guns working since you can load bullets as a free action eventually.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
DrakeRoberts wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:


Now there are some very specific cases where you could pull this kind of trick off: chill touch modified with Reach Spell is one
Actually, this recently came up in another thread (entitled "Chill Touch") that I posted. It was suggested that using it in this way would fall victim to the "can't hold ranged touch charge" rule.

It may have been suggested, but the spell already allows multiple attacks with a "held charge:"

Quote:

Range touch

Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

The effect is basically a held charge that can be used "up to one time per level," which would otherwise be impossible for an instantaneous duration (this spell was written before the magus, so there is no way a character could make more than one attack with it otherwise). Reach Spell allows the range to be changed, but all other aspects of the spell are the same (although I'd say that a ranged miss counts as a use, since it will either hit something else like a wall or floor or travel beyond the spell's maximum range):

Quote:
You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher. Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.

The reason it states "up to one/level" is the rules for held charges:

Quote:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

You may not be able to get all of those attacks in.

The other interpretation would be to allow one ranged touch attack per level immediately on casting the spell, which makes it much more powerful than other 2nd-level spells.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:


Now there are some very specific cases where you could pull this kind of trick off: chill touch modified with Reach Spell is one
Actually, this recently came up in another thread (entitled "Chill Touch") that I posted. It was suggested that using it in this way would fall victim to the "can't hold ranged touch charge" rule.

It may have been suggested, but the spell already allows multiple attacks with a "held charge:"

Quote:

Range touch

Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

The effect is basically a held charge that can be used "up to one time per level," which would otherwise be impossible for an instantaneous duration (this spell was written before the magus, so there is no way a character could make more than one attack with it otherwise). Reach Spell allows the range to be changed, but all other aspects of the spell are the same (although I'd say that a ranged miss counts as a use, since it will either hit something else like a wall or floor or travel beyond the spell's maximum range):

Quote:
You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a
...

I'd be very interested to learn if this was true. I'd certainly like it to be (it's how I originally read things).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Basically the "held charge" makes it roughly equivalent to thorn javelin, except using a ranged touch instead of a normal ranged attack, and being (effectively) a 2nd-level spell instead of a 1st-level spell.

[EDIT] Of course, with the "held charge," you can't cast another spell without the Reach chill touch ending, so it's less versatile in use.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:


Now there are some very specific cases where you could pull this kind of trick off: chill touch modified with Reach Spell is one
Actually, this recently came up in another thread (entitled "Chill Touch") that I posted. It was suggested that using it in this way would fall victim to the "can't hold ranged touch charge" rule.

It may have been suggested, but the spell already allows multiple attacks with a "held charge:"

Quote:

Range touch

Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

The effect is basically a held charge that can be used "up to one time per level," which would otherwise be impossible for an instantaneous duration (this spell was written before the magus, so there is no way a character could make more than one attack with it otherwise). Reach Spell allows the range to be changed, but all other aspects of the spell are the same (although I'd say that a ranged miss counts as a use, since it will either hit something else like a wall or floor or travel beyond the spell's maximum range):

Quote:
You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a
...

Holding the charge is a function of the spell being a melee touch spell. With reach spell, it is no longer a melee touch spell, and you can no longer hold the charge, so all charges would be lost at the start of your next turn. That's even being generous with the RAW parsing of "Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn."

Silver Crusade

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In the 'attacks' section of the Lantern Archon (not the 'spell-like abilities' section):-

Quote:
Ranged 2 light rays +3 ranged touch (1d6)

In this case, this 'light ray' is an attack, not a spell or an SLA. So this is something that, when combined with the Snap Shot line of feats, could be used to take an AoO.

Liberty's Edge

Calth wrote:
Holding the charge is a function of the spell being a melee touch spell. With reach spell, it is no longer a melee touch spell, and you can no longer hold the charge, so all charges would be lost at the start of your next turn. That's even being generous with the RAW parsing of "Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn."

I can see both sides of the argument, and personally wouldn't have an issue with allowing the charge to be held over multiple rounds. Which, in that case, he would be allowed to make an AoO using the Snap Shot feat.

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