Hobbit 3: The Battle of 55 Armies


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Arturius Fischer wrote:


That's because Smaug himself was never made to be a final 'boss monster' that the main characters defeat, the story was more concerned with the journey and interaction between the characters. Like many old fairy tales, the big evil monster is defeated by exactly the thing needed to do so at the very end almost as an afterthought, and the story is brought to a happy conclusion.
Also, Speak With Animals is kinda a thing, and this is why. ;)

And, to my personal dismay, so much of the journey and interaction from the book ends up poorly represented on screen - swallowed up by too much action filler. In order to support the pacing and break of 3 movies, Bilbo has to win over Thorin's admiration too soon - necessitating a bizarre confrontation in the pines - rather than wait for Bilbo to take the leadership role in Mirkwood and Thranduil's dungeons.

Beorn and even the spiders drop to secondary status in the overall story to make room for dragon-targeting A-Teaming and a barrel thrill ride. Kili and Fili's sacrifice (briefly described but poignant in the original) is transformed by the cross race love story that, at once, justifies the presence of a female character while also making her dependent on a relationship to a male character for her significance.

Meh. I'm glad it's done.


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Arturius Fischer wrote:
Also, Speak With Animals is kinda a thing, and this is why. ;)

Last I heard, Speaker to Animals was a Kzinti. :-)


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
I just think it would have been better to include the thrush (maybe with some additional setup or modifications) than the whole windlance thing.

He wouldn't have even had to speak bird, frankly. The thing could have gotten his attention by flying around and then zipped over to Smaug and shown him the weak spot (perhaps even valiantly sacrificing itself to do so. *sniff*)


Bill Dunn wrote:
Caineach wrote:


The dwarves are not supposed to be level 15 fighters.
Well, they're not, but then neither were the goblins in the book. Thorn and Company make a difference in the fight in the book because they are able to drive into the goblins (including Bolg's bodyguard) by surprise and in nearly impenetrable armor. And even then, they ultimately fail and it's up to Beorn to rescue Thorin and crush Bolg.

And that would have been more interesting and believable than them rushing the front line and rallying the troops.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Hama wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
I would say that for all its faults, Jackson did a much better job of adapting The Hobbit to film than Verhoeven did adapting Starship Troopers. :-)
Heinlein's book was horrible. It's a good thing that Verhoeven strayed so far from the source material.
If you say that the book was horrible, either you didn't read it, you didn't understand it, or you're a raving liberal. Or any combination thereof. :-)

Going back a bit...I think some may consider me a raving liberal (I'm not, but some may consider me such) and I absolutely loved the book.

I think you have the wrong idea of what liberals may act like.

Then again, I don't consider myself liberal per se (or conservative), though many may place my ideas and thoughts in such categories.

I think such classifications and group waving ludicrous in and of themselves. Loyalty to such ideologies as to block out any alternative thoughts or ideas...really doesn't suit my style.

I think there are many that probably are like me in that arena though.

Coming back to the present with the thread and the Hobbit...

As many have noted, there were many changes from the book to the movie, anyone who had seen Jackson's Lord of the Rings would have known this would happen.

Bolg IS mentioned in the Hobbit I believe, but is much more pertinent to the final battle than Azog. That said, I feel that the dwarf/elf romance actually weakened the movies and the plot focus...but that is minor to what really is the problem with the movies. I think they drew out the book too much and had to put in too much filler into the movies themselves. I don't think I would have minded two movies...but I think three movies was just a wee bit too much.

Still, I'd say the Battle of Five Armies is rather interesting to watch. I think I liked the first Hobbit movie the most (An Unexpected Journey), and then Battle of Five Armies is next. Desolation of Smaug is the worst of them all. None of them are as strong or an enjoyable as any of the LotR trilogy...but I'm not certain they were supposed to be.

I think if they had stuck to two movies however, they may have had two movies that could have been in contention with the LotR movies...as it would have had sharper edits, and more focus on the actual plot and story.

Just my thoughts.


Bill Dunn wrote:

And, to my personal dismay, so much of the journey and interaction from the book ends up poorly represented on screen - swallowed up by too much action filler. In order to support the pacing and break of 3 movies, Bilbo has to win over Thorin's admiration too soon - necessitating a bizarre confrontation in the pines - rather than wait for Bilbo to take the leadership role in Mirkwood and Thranduil's dungeons.

Beorn and even the spiders drop to secondary status in the overall story to make room for dragon-targeting A-Teaming and a barrel thrill ride. Kili and Fili's sacrifice (briefly described but poignant in the original) is transformed by the cross race love story that, at once, justifies the presence of a female character while also making her dependent on a relationship to a male character for her significance.

Meh. I'm glad it's done.

I see we are in agreement. I can't find anything to disagree with here, and you've put much of this into words better than I could have. Thanks!

Ed Reppert wrote:
Last I heard, Speaker to Animals was a Kzinti. :-)

Last I heard, Speaker-to-Animals earned a NAME, and saying anything else to him will likely result in Chmee ripping your intestines out. Kzin are kinda touchy that way.

GreyWolfLord wrote:
That said, I feel that the dwarf/elf romance actually weakened the movies and the plot focus...but that is minor to what really is the problem with the movies.

I, personally, would have preferred more of a focus on the bromance between Gimli and Legolas in the LotR movies, instead of making Gimli the comic relief and Legolas into an unstoppable wuxia juggernaut. They practically became brothers by the end of the series, and journeyed together showing each other various wonders valued by their races during and after the war was done.

This whole 'dwarf/elf' love story was incredibly tacked on, and it was almost like someone who had read LotR brought up the Gimli/Legolas thing, only for it to get the Hollyweird treatment as these two characters, one old and one new.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arturius Fischer wrote:

Last I heard, Speaker-to-Animals earned a NAME, and saying anything else to him will likely result in Chmee ripping your intestines out. Kzin are kinda touchy that way.

The Lok'Groton Isles are the place where the Mad Emperor Mobius sends exiles from the Empire. One of those exiles is a Fen'neko Ranger named Chmee. His tattoo reads "You scream, and you leap." :-)


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Bolg IS mentioned in the Hobbit I believe, but is much more pertinent to the final battle than Azog.

In the book canon Bolg was indeed the leader of the goblin armies at the Lonely Mountain. Book-Azog was long dead by the time of the Battle of Five Armies.

I'm of the cynical view that the only reason Jackson decided to resurrect Azog was so that he could keep Bolg specifically for Legolas to fight and kill.

Dark Archive

Not sure if there is any point in spoilering this, but just in case ...

goats:
I watched the film again, and there is a long shot of the dwarf army standing in squares, and there are a couple of tiny figures in between the squares that appear to be dwarves riding goats. I wouldn't have seen them if I hadn't been looking out for "goatsign", however.


Goatsign. Awesome


I want to just say that I posted this almost exactly one year ago and totally called it.

Spoiler:
Okay, not totally, it was Radagast (aka Poop-Head) and not Gandalf, but still I totally called the whole Beorn Bear Bomb right.

As to the issue with the gems being left hanging, I would hope that these are clarified in the extended version.

For those that know the book extremely well, were all of the dwarves explicitly described as male (described using male pronouns, as sons, brothers, uncles, etc)? For example, could Nori, Dori, and Ori have been female and not explicitly gone against the original text? Makes you wonder if a lot more females could be put into stories like this with little effort, at least for supporting parts without forcing a crude "love story" in.

Also, how close are the Iron Hills to the Lonely Mountain?

Spoiler:
The elves get there and say they are going to attack the next morning. Thorin sends a raven at that time. By the next morning an army of dwarves shows up. Seems pretty quick turn around time to me. Of course Jackson is always scared of showing the passing of time.


I'm pretty sure they were all male. The Iron Hills are reasonably close, to the north of Erebor and on the correct side of the Anduin.

Incidentally, my recollection is that (probably unnecessary spoilering, but anyway):

Spoiler:
...more of the dwarves die. I'm sure that Bombur (at least)buys it, as well as Fili, Kili and Thorin.


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pres man wrote:

Also, how close are the Iron Hills to the Lonely Mountain?

Spoiler:
The elves get there and say they are going to attack the next morning. Thorin sends a raven at that time. By the next morning an army of dwarves shows up. Seems pretty quick turn around time to me. Of course Jackson is always scared of showing the passing of time.

Spoiler:
Along the same lines the whole bit with Legolas and Tauriel off to Gundabad to watch the goblin army emerge seemed off in timing. All of this apparently happened within the same day and probably just a few hours.

The Iron Hills and Gundabad are reasonably close as geographical distances go, but not within a few hours walk. Even ignoring established geography, it doesn't make plot sense that there would be a dwarven stronghold and a goblin capital all within a couple hours of the Mountain.

In the book, there was no scouting mission to Gundabad and Thorin sent the ravens to Dain as soon as they'd taken Erebor, days before Thranduil arrived. And the goblins were moving the whole time.

The Exchange

Spoiler:
Oh yes, that's quite true - the Iron Hills are not a stroll. But they aren't that far away either. But it would still be days, not hours, of travel. But such things are a mere bagatelle to Jackson, as you point out. I wasn't trying to justify his rather dubious grasp of Middle Earth geography. Gundabad, for example, is across the Anduin, and therefore not all that easy to get across to despite the ease the elves and orcs seem to experience. The Iron Hills are on the Erebor side of the river, a least.

Sovereign Court

Nope, just Fili, Kili and Thorin.


Hama wrote:
Nope, just Fili, Kili and Thorin.

True, I was pleasantly surprised that Jackson didn't kill more dwarves, as I had expect him to. Sticking to just those in the books was a nice nod.

Now expect that if they give him enough money, we'll see a movie about the brief retaking of Mordor and the fall of Balin.


pres man wrote:
Hama wrote:
Nope, just Fili, Kili and Thorin.

True, I was pleasantly surprised that Jackson didn't kill more dwarves, as I had expect him to. Sticking to just those in the books was a nice nod.

Now expect that if they give him enough money, we'll see a movie about the brief retaking of Mordor and the fall of Balin.

I'd go to see that.


pres man wrote:
Hama wrote:
Nope, just Fili, Kili and Thorin.

True, I was pleasantly surprised that Jackson didn't kill more dwarves, as I had expect him to. Sticking to just those in the books was a nice nod.

Now expect that if they give him enough money, we'll see a movie about the brief retaking of Mordor and the fall of Balin.

you mean the retaking of Moria right?


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Depending on how the license is worded, he could make any number of movies. There's a ton of stuff in the Appendices that could be fleshed out.

I doubt Moria and Balin would work though. Too bleak. Everyone dies.

Honestly, I'd really rather he stopped here. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
GreyWolfLord wrote:
Going back a bit...I think some may consider me a raving liberal

*spittake*

;)


thejeff wrote:

Depending on how the license is worded, he could make any number of movies. There's a ton of stuff in the Appendices that could be fleshed out.

I doubt Moria and Balin would work though. Too bleak. Everyone dies.

Honestly, I'd really rather he stopped here. :)

Well, he has been quoted as saying he was done making Middle Earth films. So unless the film studio comes to him with an idea/script, he is done. Even then, it would have to be something that was just in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings.

And yes, while a movie on the attempted retaking of Moria would be possible, with the obvious bed ending, I do not see it happening either.

They could make a movie about the early years of Aragorn's reign as he consolidates his power and defeats various evil forces still out there after the defeat of Sauron, using The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen from appendix A of RotK. That could work pretty well, since it would be done with the more serious tone of the LotR movies.


Black Dougal wrote:
you mean the retaking of Moria right?

D'oh!


Had a chance to see it a short while ago.

I agree with much of the criticism here, though I still did like it the most of the 3 Hobbit movies (not that that's much of a hurdle).

Plus, my love of dwarves (from when I first read the Hobbit and LotR years ago, and then later cemented with FR11 Dwarves Deep (1990) and the Complete Book of Dwarves a year later) really helped this movie along.

- more awesome dwarven architecture? Check.
- dwarves mounted on war/dire rams? Check.
- dwarves with the obligatory Scottish accent? Check.
- dwarven shield-wall? Check.
- dwarf gold-lust (the inspiration for the dwarven god Abbathor)? Check.

Good enough for me.

The Exchange

Actually, the dwarves had a number of accents. James Nesbitt (honestly, no idea which dwarf - he had no lines in the 3rd movie) retained his strong Northern Irish accent and the actor playing Kili is also (and also sounded) Irish. Thorin didn't sound very Scottish (Richard Armitage is English, from the Midlands) but Ken Stott (Balin) is Scottish. In fact, if memory serves, Gimli's accent was Welsh (as was the actor).

Here's a discussion. I can tell you now that Thorin's accent is not Yorkshire.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Actually, the dwarves had a number of accents. James Nesbitt (honestly, no idea which dwarf - he had no lines in the 3rd movie) retained his strong Northern Irish accent and the actor playing Kili is also (and also sounded) Irish. Thorin didn't sound very Scottish (Richard Armitage is English, from the Midlands) but Ken Stott (Balin) is Scottish. In fact, if memory serves, Gimli's accent was Welsh (as was the actor).

Here's a discussion. I can tell you now that Thorin's accent is not Yorkshire.

Us Americans can't tell the difference.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Actually, the dwarves had a number of accents. James Nesbitt (honestly, no idea which dwarf - he had no lines in the 3rd movie) retained his strong Northern Irish accent and the actor playing Kili is also (and also sounded) Irish. Thorin didn't sound very Scottish (Richard Armitage is English, from the Midlands) but Ken Stott (Balin) is Scottish. In fact, if memory serves, Gimli's accent was Welsh (as was the actor).

Here's a discussion. I can tell you now that Thorin's accent is not Yorkshire.

The funny thing is that half of the dwarf actors are New Zealanders.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Actually, the dwarves had a number of accents. James Nesbitt (honestly, no idea which dwarf - he had no lines in the 3rd movie) retained his strong Northern Irish accent and the actor playing Kili is also (and also sounded) Irish. Thorin didn't sound very Scottish (Richard Armitage is English, from the Midlands) but Ken Stott (Balin) is Scottish. In fact, if memory serves, Gimli's accent was Welsh (as was the actor).

Here's a discussion. I can tell you now that Thorin's accent is not Yorkshire.

Actually, I was just referring to the dwarf voiced by Billy Connolly.

(I probably should have made it singular, but meh.)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Having seen the third movie (finally) last week, I honestly think it was probably the weakest of the three movies

I really liked An Unexpected Journey. The Desolation of Smaug was undercut by extended action sequences that rendered the orcs and Smaug as incompetant (barrel chase and Smaug's dwarf hunt).

The Battle of 5 armies just seemed...poorly put together. First, I still stand by my thoughts on on the second movie, and the death of Smaug should been how the movie ended.

Secondly, it seemed...rushed. You could easily ground Thorin's gold sickness by developing his backstory with Dain and playing up the siege of Thorin by elves and men. Also the elf gems and the fate of Bard were just left hanging.

Legolas should really have been only and extra in this movie. Tauriel should have taken down Bolg. To make a big deal about adding a strong female character, only to have her be rescued by Legolas was lame. If anything, if Tauriel should have rescued Legolas.

The CGI seemed worse than the original trilogy, especially the Trolls. Not sure if it was because I saw it in 2D and not 3D, but it was.

Their was also the inclusion of tons of unneeded details. I rolled my eyes every time the cowardly human lackey showed up on screen.

Oh well..at least I got to see Werewyrms and hobgoblins?

The Exchange

Arnwyn wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Actually, the dwarves had a number of accents. James Nesbitt (honestly, no idea which dwarf - he had no lines in the 3rd movie) retained his strong Northern Irish accent and the actor playing Kili is also (and also sounded) Irish. Thorin didn't sound very Scottish (Richard Armitage is English, from the Midlands) but Ken Stott (Balin) is Scottish. In fact, if memory serves, Gimli's accent was Welsh (as was the actor).

Here's a discussion. I can tell you now that Thorin's accent is not Yorkshire.

Actually, I was just referring to the dwarf voiced by Billy Connolly.

(I probably should have made it singular, but meh.)

So just one Scottish dwarf, and all is well with the world? ;-P

The Exchange

Fabius Maximus wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Actually, the dwarves had a number of accents. James Nesbitt (honestly, no idea which dwarf - he had no lines in the 3rd movie) retained his strong Northern Irish accent and the actor playing Kili is also (and also sounded) Irish. Thorin didn't sound very Scottish (Richard Armitage is English, from the Midlands) but Ken Stott (Balin) is Scottish. In fact, if memory serves, Gimli's accent was Welsh (as was the actor).

Here's a discussion. I can tell you now that Thorin's accent is not Yorkshire.

The funny thing is that half of the dwarf actors are New Zealanders.

Just not the half that said anything.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
So just one Scottish dwarf, and all is well with the world? ;-P

Damn straight!

The simple acknowledgement of the existence of at least one Scottish-accented dwarf in a motion picture is all this gamer asks for. :D


MMCJawa wrote:
The CGI seemed worse than the original trilogy, especially the Trolls. Not sure if it was because I saw it in 2D and not 3D, but it was.

It's because there was so much more of it in this trilogy than in the first one. Peter Jackson got the Lucas Virus or something (maybe the "magic" of CGI technology for filmmakers is like the irresistible urge of the Arkenstone? Dunno.)

There was an interview with Viggo Mortensen last year lamenting the excessive CGI in Jackson's work.

Like you, I think that An Unexpected Journey was the strongest of the three films, and that Desolation of Smaug would have been far better served with removing the overlong and silly river chase scene and the cartoonish (and very Lucas Droid Factory-esque) battle against Smaug, reserving them for some quieter moments and ending the movie with Smaug's death.


pres man wrote:
Also, how close are the Iron Hills to the Lonely Mountain?

Hard to say because AFAIK there is no canon emplacement of where in the Iron Hills lives Dain and his kin, but if we assume that his halls are near the source of the river Carnen (similar to how the halls of Erebor are at the source of the River Celduin), that'd be about 150-200 miles "as the crow flies" (not all maps have the exact same scale).

The distance between Mt. Gundabad and the Elven king's halls is about twice as much, and over MUCH more difficult terrain.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Arturius Fischer wrote:
But why, when you have a PHALANX OF DWARVES WITH A SHIELD WALL, would THOUSANDS of Elves (all previously armed with Elven Longbows and TONS of arrows) go kickflipping over them to fight the Orcs 1 on 1 in melee with spears? Instead of, you know, staying behind the Dwarves and mowing down the middles ranks of the Orcs as they try and make it. PERFECT combo there. Elves are kinda known for archery and all that (having said that, the Dwarven Shortbow was beautiful).

In the trailer there is a flight of hundreds of arrows that did not appear in the movie.

I would say that is another thing that will be in the extended edition.

My guess is the elves fired over the dwarves heads.
Since the dwarves's shield wall was higher than the elves were tall, they could not see accurately to hit, that is why they leaped into the fray.

I do agree the elves should have stayed back and let the orcs hit the shield wall before leaping over it to engage them.
Although tacticall, they would have lost some advantage if the orcs had bunched up and they had no room for maneuvers.

BTW, there were only about 400 elves and 200 dwarves.
The dwarves would have been overrun by the thousands of orcs if they had relied just on the shield wall.


Charles Scholz wrote:


BTW, there were only about 400 elves and 200 dwarves.
The dwarves would have been overrun by the thousands of orcs if they had relied just on the shield wall.

No, Dain arrived with 500+ dwarves, per the book. The exact number of elves or humans was never given, though the book does specify a thousand elven spearmen at one point, who leapt into battle right after a hail of arrows, possibly from an equal number of archers.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I was just going by what it looked like on screen. It did not seem that many.

BTW, anyone seen Peter Jackson? I have seen it twice and haven't seen him yet. Don't say what he is playing, but a general idea might be nice.
When I took my nephews over the Christmas Holiday, one of them said he kept noticing one of the background human extras was looking straight at the camera more than once.

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