Rogue Crawl question...


Rules Questions


So, Rogue Crawl and the similar feat allow you to move half your speed while prone. If you move up to half your speed, you take no penalty on Stealth checks for movement. So, the question is, a human rogue with 30' base movement has rogue crawl and wants to use Stealth while crawling; how fast can he crawl without taking a penalty on the Stealth check?

My intuition says that the Rogue only has the one movement rate (30') and there are two things that he can do so long as he doesn't exceed half that, so I think he can crawl 15' and still stealth at no penalty... But I'm curious what you guys think. Does Rogue Crawl give a new de facto movement rate that must be halved to avoid the penalty, or does crawling satisfy the "half speed" requirement?

Liberty's Edge

Your interpretation of the rules is a bit off. Here are the excerpts from the PRD:

Quote:
While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.
Quote:
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty.

So, Rogue Crawl allows the rogue to move at half speed. If his speed is normally 30, then he can crawl at 15. In this situation, his 'normal speed' is now 15. If he then tries to stealth, he moves at half that speed, or 5 (since you must round down from 7.5 to 5).


That's a bit rough for the rogue who actually takes the talent, I feel, but thanks. For some reason I was interpreting "move at half speed" to mean that your "normal speed" was still 30', but your movement was impeded such that a move only takes you half the normal distance... I think you are probably right, though.

In a related note, does this mean a rogue moving through dense brush (rough terrain) that doesn't want a penalty on Stealth would have to move at 1/4 speed for similar reasons?


Correct. All speed penalties stack. in your example, if you were to also use acrobatics to tumble through threatened squares, it would be 1/8 your original movement.


The problem is that Stealth does not say "your speed is halved and..." or even "you move at half speed" (Acrobatics says "while moving in this way, you move at half speed") but rather refer to moving up to half your "normal" speed, which seems like it ought to be a set value. If you're a human (without something else adding to your movement rate) your "normal" speed 30 feet, right?

The language in the Stealth skill never actually assigns a speed penalty, only an upper limit to how fast you can move and maintain Stealth (without penalties). The language in both Tumble and Rogue Crawl state that you actually move at half speed, which is a speed penalty, of course, so those would stack. Speed penalties stack, but I don't see one in the skill description for Stealth.

X/2 ≤ X/2

Grand Lodge

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:

The problem is that Stealth does not say "your speed is halved and..." or even "you move at half speed" (Acrobatics says "while moving in this way, you move at half speed") but rather refer to moving up to half your "normal" speed, which seems like it ought to be a set value. If you're a human (without something else adding to your movement rate) your "normal" speed 30 feet, right?

The language in the Stealth skill never actually assigns a speed penalty, only an upper limit to how fast you can move and maintain Stealth (without penalties). The language in both Tumble and Rogue Crawl state that you actually move at half speed, which is a speed penalty, of course, so those would stack. Speed penalties stack, but I don't see one in the skill description for Stealth.

X/2 ≤ X/2

No, but Stealth basically takes penalties if you move faster than half your current speed.

It would make no sense for a breastplate-wearing human Cleric, whose speed is restricted to 20 feet, to be able to stealth at a speed of 15' without penalty.

It also makes no sense for any other speed restriction not to affect the highest speed you can use Stealth without penalty.


Well, the cleric in question is probably going to be terrible at Stealth anyway, and also have an armor check penalty, but I do see your point.

In the material you quoted, I may have misworded something very slightly...

"If you're a human (without something else modifying your movement rate) your "normal" speed 30 feet, right?"

If we're going to talk about what makes sense, you're moving only up to half speed when using Stealth represents having to move carefully and cautiously to avoid hazards that might give away your position, stay out of obvious sight, etc. Well, crawling would help keep you out of obvious sight, as well as make you much quieter (with a little practice).

Even moving through rough terrain makes "sense" as doubling with stealth, depending on the terrain - picture sneaking through a dense forest with plenty of roots; finding a place to put your foot that won't trip you up should use the same units of effort/time weather you care about not tripping up because you don't want to fall on your face or you are actually trying to be stealthy/quiet. There is at least some overlap in both cases. Also, rough terrain generally obscures vision at least partly (as in the forest), so it would make moving about unseen less burdensome (you're *in* the bush - so long as you don't go crashing through it, you're halfway Stealthed already).

Tumbling while using stealth is a bit sillier, I must admit; I basically think it should be impossible, or at least carry heavy penalties, if we are using real world logic. Luckily, it's also incredibly unlikely to come up, as you probably aren't trying to stealth the same round you tumble out of combat... The only situation that would normally be possible in would be one where you dive out of combat and around a corner and then "ninja vanish" like Batman or something. And, to be fair, that sort of thing is kinda in-genre.

Anyway, on to rules...

The Stealth skill description refers to "normal speed," which is an undefined term as far as I know. I assume that normal speed is the speed you are capable of moving, assuming that you aren't slowed down by tumbling, moving through rough terrain, etc (nothing "abnormal" is happening). Whether or not your armored speed is your "normal" speed while you wear the armor is debatable, I suppose. I would assume yes, but I'm not really sure, nor do I really have a problem with it either way, as armor already gives Armor Check penalties.

The movement limitations on Stealth uses very different language from Rogue Crawl and Acrobatics, all of which are from the same book - why is that?

Why not say "Normally, you move at half speed while using Stealth..." since that is more clear ([i]if[/] that is the intent) and is in fact in line with what Acrobatics and similar abilities already say?

(it's six less words, too, and the next sentence in the description of Stealth doesn't have to be changed to describe the repercussions of moving faster)

The relevant part of the Stealth skill description, just for the sake of having it in the thread...

Stealth wrote:


Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

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