Creating magic item with a metamagic enhanced spell as prerequisite??


Rules Questions


Let's say I wanted to create a magic duck call that, upon command, would not quack, but would instead have the effect of a <Concussive> Shout spell. So it would act like shout, but modified by the metamagic feat Concussive Spell.

The creation rules would list...Concussive Shout? Shout and Concussive Spell?

1. Is this rules legal?
2. Is this really stupid, in that there is always another spell to use instead of the feat? In some cases, maybe, but what if there isn't?


dotting because I've always wanted to pay extra to have a magic item use metamagic stuff.

As for requirements I would guess it would list the spell and feat seperately.
though I wonder which spell level it would charge you for...


You would charge for the new effective level of the spell and caster level needed to cast it.


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_Ozy_ is correct.

Example, if you create a Scroll of a level 3 spell and apply a +1 Metamagic feat to the spell then you are paying the costs of a level 4 spell with a minimum caster level of 7 (up to whatever you wish to set it at). However, any save DC is still that of a level 3 spell scroll as per the normal metamagic rules.


What Ozy and Gauss said!


Great information.

Under the requirements, are the spell and feat listed separately, or together?

shout, Concussive Spell

or

Concussive shout

I guess, practically, it doesn't make a difference.

Now, for my magic kazoo...


They would be individual requirements and the DC goes up by +5 for each missing requirement.


Cool, thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gauss wrote:
They would be individual requirements and the DC goes up by +5 for each missing requirement.

If he is making a scroll he can't have "missing requirements", you put a spell in a scroll as it is memorized (but you can scribe it at a lower caster level, as long as it is high enough to cast the spell).

If you don't know a metamagic you can't make a scroll of a spell with it.

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:
Gauss wrote:
They would be individual requirements and the DC goes up by +5 for each missing requirement.

If he is making a scroll he can't have "missing requirements", you put a spell in a scroll as it is memorized (but you can scribe it at a lower caster level, as long as it is high enough to cast the spell).

If you don't know a metamagic you can't make a scroll of a spell with it.

Do you need to have Silent Spell to make Riffle scrolls?


Yes.

"...but note that only spells that have been modified by the Silent Spell metamagic feat can be crafted into riffle scrolls."


Diego Rossi, the original poster did not mention scroll use, I did as an example. He wanted to create a "Magic Duck".

But, yes, scrolls, wands, and potions cannot bypass the spell requirement.


While reading before bed, I found some examples (everyone else probably new about them):

1. Ring of Forcefangs - Heighten Spell, magic missile
2. Ring of Retribution - Quicken Spell, fireball
3. Greater Slaying Arrow - heightened finger of death

#3 is written that way, but either it was just an editing error or maybe back in the CRB they hadn't settled on how to write it up.

My magic duck call is one of those little things you blow into that sounds like quacking, to lure ducks to their doom while hunting. It's a very silly item.

Thanks for the help.


Quote:
#3 is written that way, but either it was just an editing error or maybe back in the CRB they hadn't settled on how to write it up.

Might be an interesting distinction for making magic items.

If you actually need the 'metamagic'ed spell', then you also need to be high enough level to cast it that way (plus have the metamagic) otherwise you need to take the DC increase, but it would be only one missed requirement for a DC increase of 5.

If the metamagic and spell are listed separately, then if you don't have either it's +10 to your DC, but if you had both requirements, in theory you could make the item with no DC increase even if you weren't high enough level to cast the spell with the metamagic applied.


_Ozy_, CL in magic items do not result in a DC increase if you are not high enough level. Only "Caster Level" in the requirement section results in a DC increase if you are not high enough level.

Most of the Wondrous Items that replicate a spell effect do not have a "Caster Level" requirement. There is no level required to construct the item. This means you can create a magic item of Wish at any level if you have a high enough Spellcraft score and enough gold. (It is the gold that is the major limiting factor.)


As always with custom magic items, pricing and requirements are a GM call, and their isn't any particular 'rules legal' with them. There are some guidelines, but they are just that.

Many magic items have effects that are only tangentially related to the spells required. Usually sharing some thematic elements, but often with extremely different game effects, so there is a lot of latitude in building it.


Gauss wrote:

_Ozy_, CL in magic items do not result in a DC increase if you are not high enough level. Only "Caster Level" in the requirement section results in a DC increase if you are not high enough level.

Most of the Wondrous Items that replicate a spell effect do not have a "Caster Level" requirement. There is no level required to construct the item. This means you can create a magic item of Wish at any level if you have a high enough Spellcraft score and enough gold. (It is the gold that is the major limiting factor.)

The DC increase wasn't from not having the CL requirement, it was from not being high enough level to cast the required metamagic'ed spell.

That is, someone might have quicken spell and fireball, but not be high enough level to cast a quickened fireball.

Therefore if the item requirements were quicken metamagic and fireball, they would meet those requirements. If the item requirements included instead a 'quickened fireball' then they wouldn't be able to meet that requirement and need to add 5 to the DC.

Thus there is an actual difference between the requirements:

quicken metamagic, fireball

and

quickened fireball


_Ozy_,

Whether the spell required is level 3 (caster level 5) or level 9 (caster level 17) is irrelevant. The spell itself is the requirement, not the caster level required to cast the spell.

Put another way: there is no caster level requirement for "Fireball" or for "Quickened Fireball" in the magic item creation rules (for non-spell trigger or spell completion items).

Additionally, only spell trigger or spell completion items (and potions) would have a requirement of "metamagic spell" since spell trigger or spell completion items would require the actual spell. I have yet to see an item that is not spell trigger or spell completion list it as "metamagic spell". If you could provide an example that would be great.


I think you are not understanding what I am saying.

A level 5 caster can cast fireball. A level 5 caster can have quickened metamagic. A level 5 caster can't cast a quickened fireball.

Therefore, if that level 5 caster tried to create an item with

Requirements: quickened metamagic, fireball

he would satisfy both, and get no DC increase

If the item instead had:

Requirements: quickened fireball

that caster would not be able to cast the spell and need to increase the DC by 5

This has nothing to do with the 'caster level' of the item, or even the caster level of the creator, just whether the creator has access to the requirements, which is different for the two cases illustrated above.

Edit: the real examples were given by Mazym above.


Ahhh, ok. Thanks for clarifying that.

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