On the Helpful trait (there's one that uses the same name but is Halfling specific; it pushes the bonus to +4): The Helpful trait changes the bonus from +2 to +4. It doesn't increase. It would not stack with another ability that replaces it. It does, however, stack with something that augments it, like Fools for Friends or Ring of Tactical Precision.
I suppose that could be a valid interpretation, but I would have to say expect considerable table variation.
On situational reasons to move: Of course there are! Specific trumps general; duh!
Yes, but what I meant is that those are pretty common situational reasons.
On being alone: Yes, this is a death sentence with this build. Although, your own AC is pretty massive (10 base + 6 shield + 6 armor + 2 dex = 24) and your saves should be solid (con is high, dex is moderate, wis is dumped, pally gives fort and will saves, divine grace). You might be able to just outlast someone while plinking them for trite damage. Thankfully, Pathfinder is a team game!
Actually, this is a situation where it would be helpful to keep going up in Paladin levels -- this would let you heal yourself more (usable more times if you are a Warrior of the Holy Light), thus buying you time to plink your opponent to death. Still, it would help to have some STR to boost your probability to hit (and like I said, Warrior of the Holy Light gives you some freedom to do this). Having 5 levels of Tower Shield Specialist on top of decent STR lets you make your plinking start to hit often enough (and hard enough) that opponents have to take it seriously.
On Litany spells: They are pretty good. I am just underwhelmed by Litany of Sloth at spell level 1, so I did not list it. Some of the others are quite good. They do typically take away your swift/immediate action, though. Paladins are powerful, because of their action economy and this is a rare clash for them.
Litany of Sloth could situationally be good. If you knew ahead of time that you were up against an enemy party that had an AoO character in it, this would be good to prepare to let your flanking friends get into position. The duration really limits it, though, so you'd really have to drill on the moves needed to make this work during the 1 round gap in your opponent's action economy (although Extend Spell would help here -- not sure if it's worth burning a feat on; alternatively, you could use a wand, if you can get one made, although if you are going sword and mega-board, this is going to be awkward, although your mega-AC will ameliorate this).
On Battle Herald: You can do some nice stuff with that. Some of the Challenges buff your allies' abilities, which can be useful. I think it falls into the same category, though, big defensive efforts with very little (none) offensive capabilities.
It does, except that the idea of Battle Herald is that you are also increasing your comrades' offensive capabilities, thus making it worth nerfing your own (although again, you still want to have decent offensive capability to use in an emergency).
On dipping: Why not bard/skald? They ignore spell failure with shields (which would include the tower shield). You could easily get into mithral plate (skald) or mithral breastplate (bard) and ignore spell failure there, too. I mean, for the sheets and giggles of it all, it's awesome.
Whoa, I think you're right. I was assuming that a Tower Shield would be the equivalent of Heavy Armor for causing arcane spell failure, since its arcane spell failure chance is base 50%, but with a literal reading of the Bard/Skald class features, I guess they get to ignore this. Seems broken, but it is what it is. Even if this gets Errata'd, you could still dip into Evangelist Cleric (which -- being a divine caster -- should be off the hook for this) for the Inspire Courage part of your prerequisites for Battle Herald. (Although I wish they would release a Cavalier archetype that got Inspire Courage, so that you wouldn't have to mix so many things together to go Battle herald, but I guess for now, having to dip in a class that has less than full BAB is part of the offense nerf tax of going into Battle Herald.)
On the conversation: Good chat. It's been a nice pros & cons deal.
Yeah, this is cool. Maybe we could evolve a build other people might actually want to use, despite the extensively detailed disadvantages of using Tower Shields.
By the way, since we're talking about a build that has the key Bastion of Good ability as a modification of Smite Evil, which is going to be behind in uses per day and get even further behind if you DON'T keep going up in Paladin levels, does anyone know of a way to increase your number of uses of Smite Evil (which presumably should work for Bastion of Good)? I could have sworn to having seen something like an Extra Smite feat a few months ago, but now I can't find it on d20pfsrd.com or Archives of Nethys.
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Extra Smite is from the 3.5 D&D "Complete Warrior" book if memory serves.
You can take the Oath of Vengeance and then get Extra Lay On Hands.
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Sorry to derail a bit with tower shields, but:
Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that
have innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor
or a weapon out of more than one special material, you get
the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
So in this, it is saying that you can make a suit of armor of multiple types of special materials, and that we just only count the most "prevalent" material.
Items not primarily of metal
are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of
mithril. (A longsword can be a mithril weapon, while a
quarterstaff cannot.)
Does not say items cannot be made of mithril, just that they don't benefit from the special material if not "primarily" made of metal.
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as its user.
It does say wooden, you are correct, though we still have options. For example, how is our 45lb tower shield constructed? Wood and nails, perhaps?
As I read it, if we put enough mithril nails in where the shield is "primarily" made of metal, it qualifies for the special material. As the first quote, only the most "prevalent" material is counted, so our tower shield does not have to cease being made of wood, to qualify for mithril's special properties or HP/hardness.
You should probably get a stool to help you reach those straws.
Angel Blooded Aasimar
Fighter 1/Sacred Shield 2 ( I am a little sad that this replaces Smite, which could help a great deal with hitting things and hurting things. But I suppose it's fine. Maybe I could convince the DM to give me the ability to alternate between the two in exchange for my spellcasting, as well as Vow of Vengeance taken with Warrior of the Holy Light, or some sort of jazz. )
STR 16
CON 16
DEX 10
WIS 10
INT 10
CHA 16
Traits:
Helpful
Fools for Friends
Feats:
F1 - Shield Focus (Tower Shield)
G1 - Bodyguard
G3 - Antagonize or Quick-draw
Essentially, if allowed, the Smite will give me more than enough to-hit to blow over the Tower Shield penalties and wipe some enemy a new one with 2 extra damage per hit.
Healing is fine, my saves all gain a +3, which is astronomical at level 3 together with a cloak of resistance. I probably won't need healing anyway, with 25 AC and a very decent health pool, augmented by Lay on Hands which can be used if I simply put my sword away for a moment, then draw it next round. It won't matter, because the AC on my team isn't going to let anything hit us.
Somehow, I think this build is actually a bit over the top in its power level in terms of defense. Maybe I'm wrong.
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I really really really don't see how.
You have MORE defense without the Tower Shield, by far.
Swift action healing + Being able to actually DO something in combat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>Some extra AC, even if you're going with the Bodyguard thing.
I really really really don't see how.
You have MORE defense without the Tower Shield, by far.
Swift action healing + Being able to actually DO something in combat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>Some extra AC, even if you're going with the Bodyguard thing.
I'm only quoting this in case you edit. Too funny not to.
I'll answer too: I think the purpose of a tower sacred shieldadin is not to do damage but to be a walking Buff (Heaps of AC and 1/2 damage received for being in your spanking holy presence. Beat that for a buff spell.)
Bonus points if you invest into Archon Style, which you can take as an aasimar.
You have trained thoroughly to protect your allies from harm, even if it means temporarily sacrificing your own safety in the process.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 2nd.
Benefit: While using this style, as a standard action, you can actively protect adjacent allies from a single opponent that you are currently adjacent to. This grants any adjacent allies a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent's next melee attack (as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn), but causes you to take a –2 penalty to AC against that opponent until your next turn. The dodge bonus persists even if your allies move away from you, but still only applies against attacks made by the opponent that you designated upon first using this ability.
You are able to throw yourself in front of danger to protect your friends.
Prerequisites: Archon Style, Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +4 or monk level 4th.
Benefit: The penalty to AC for using Archon Style to grant nearby allies a bonus to AC against a single opponent decreases to –1, and you can spend a move action instead of a standard action to use this ability.
Once per round while using Archon Style, when you have at least one hand free, you can divert one melee weapon attack that would have struck an adjacent ally and take the blow in your ally's stead, using your own AC to determine whether the attack hits you. Whether or not a diverted attack actually hits you, the ally you protected can make an attack of opportunity against the diverted opponent. You expend no action to divert the attack, but you must be aware of it and must not be flat-footed.
You must declare that you are using this feat after your opponent has declared the target of its melee attack but before it makes its attack roll.
Your righteous indignation knows no bounds, and foes that attack your companions soon learn the error of their foolish ways.
Prerequisites: Archon Diversion, Archon Style, Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th.
Benefit: You no longer take a penalty to AC for using Archon Style to grant nearby allies a bonus to AC against a single opponent, and you can spend a swift action instead of a move action to use this ability.
Whenever you take damage from using Archon Diversion to divert an opponent's attack toward yourself, any allies threatening your opponent can make an attack of opportunity against the diverted opponent.
The main problem I see with a Paladin using a tower shield is the inability to cast spells or use Lay on Hands if you're holding a weapon in your other hand. Using unarmed strikes or a spiked gauntlet could solve that at a slight cost in damage output.
A level or two as a Monk or Brawler might give you the feats for Enforcer. Intimidating foes to make them shaken would give the affected enemies another -2 to hit you. The Cruel enchantment would make that a -4 to hit along with -2 damage. You'd be kind of a "Debuffadin". I guess if you're feeling extra defensive you could even try to determine whether fighting with an unarmed strike while using a shield in the other qualifies as having "one hand free" for Crane Style. If so you could get your AC up even more. Actually, I guess that's not even necessary for Crane Style itself, just for the much maligned Crane Wing (though it would still be nice to know)
I'd be reluctant to give up Smite Evil since you'll need some help hitting and damaging foes. I might even consider Oath of Vengeance to increase your number of smites per day. Besides helping out on attacks Smite Evil can greatly boost your AC against the foe(s) you're smiting.
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Given that combat becomes progressively mobile as the game progresses, one might wonder as to the usefulness of being utterly useless unless you're within arm's length of an ally. It's kind of like being limited to full-attacking except you're also requiring your allies to not move or else you provide no meaningful benefit to the party at all.
Whereas a real martial will be out there running interference, getting in the way of enemies, forcing foes onto the defensive (rather than standing around and being a beacon that says "Please aim AoE nastiness here").
In short, the entire concept falls apart if anyone you are protecting is actually moving or isn't being attacked by a physical attack. :(
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Heck, you'd actually be better off being a sacred servant paladin (my new favorite kind of Paladin actually) and using your class-feature-buddy to help you run interference. Then Paladins have shield other which when they are using a light shield means they can eat 1/2 of their wards' damage and still be able to swift + standard-action Lay on Hands if they need to.
A demon-spawn tiefling (+2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 disable device & perception, shatter SLA) with the paladin favored class bonus (+level to Lay on Hands for self healing) with Fey Foundling is a defensive prodigy that can carry a light shield to be able to use Lay on Hands and cast spells without having to waste actions. Not only can you actually protect people but you don't require your party members to huddle on you like moss on a tree, and you can shrug massive punishment even when using shield other (At 4th level you're healing for 2d6+8 or 10-20 per LoH use). If you opt for a sacred servant Paladin, you get a few less smites but you can LoH more often and you can get a sweet ally to help you out.
Why are you telling me that I'd be better off doing something else when I specifically said that I wish to build a paladin around a tower shield?
I don't have to protect my allies at all times. If things to sour, I could simply smite and go in for the kill. It's not exactly supremely hard to hit something with a +7 to hit (including Cha from smite) at level 3, and that's counting tower shield penalties. I won't be needing power-attack if I'm Smiting, even.
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Why are you telling me that I'd be better off doing something else when I specifically said that I wish to build a paladin around a tower shield?
I don't have to protect my allies at all times. If things to sour, I could simply smite and go in for the kill. It's not exactly supremely hard to hit something with a +7 to hit (including Cha from smite) at level 3, and that's counting tower shield penalties. I won't be needing power-attack if I'm Smiting, even.
Because this isn't a single player game.
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You can't Smite, you're a Sacred Shield.
Even if you could, not everything you fight will be Evil.
Everyone's telling you not to do it because we're a bit baffled as to WHY you want to do it.
If you want to be a party protector, you'd do better without it. If you want to deal damage, you'd do better without it.
The only thing you do better than an alternative right now is being a bump on a log.
Because this isn't a single player game.
You're right. It's a roleplaying game.
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To those who assisted, thank you! I've got the gist of what I need to build towards. Cheers!
Because this isn't a single player game.You're right. It's a roleplaying game.
Correct. Which is why RPing a Paladin who insist on carrying around a hunk of wood which does little to protect him and actively hinders his ability to adventure is an odd decision, to say the least.
Because this isn't a single player game.You're right. It's a roleplaying game.
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To those who assisted, thank you! I've got the gist of what I need to build towards. Cheers!
The problem is that it's a roleplaying game- a cooperative experience- where you're making a decision to build a character that is intentionally hamstrung and less effective at their stated goal. If the other players are fine with that after you alert them, go for it, but you shouldn't punish other people in a roleplaying game because you really want one thing.
Edit: Also yeah, you can't smite. You gave that up to be a Sacred Shield.
There are more strategies in this game than Zerg Rush. Everyone here assumes the party works 1. Charge 2. End of battle. Do ask first how the party works before you fall into the error of assumption.
Movement wise, you could throw in a Quickrunners shirt and think outside of the box about movement.
You only need to move to where your allies are in order to become an incredible force.
For example, if you're high on the initiative, lower it so that you go just before your ally. SPEAK to your team mate and ask them where they'd like to go. You moved. Their turn. They move. They go before you? Ask them to hold actions until you act, so long as there aren't any dangerous foes in between your two initiatives.
You can also have different tactics you use in different situations (I know, charge then ask is the most popular but there are others).
Ironically everyone here saying that this sucks cause it's a teamwork game isn't actually thinking about what makes a team a team. Strategy and cooperation.
Disclaimer: If your group is gun-ho charge and murder everyone for themselves, I would also support not going sacred shield. But, believe or not, these parties can see the light too :P
I would also like to shed some light into the Teamwork Feats, now that we're on the "this is a team effort" game, specifically Shield Wall.
If you stand behind someone with a tower shield, their total cover affects you too.
Honestly guys, what if this guy is being build with a full-attacking archer? The AC, damage mitigation and sheer immovability of this combination can break encounters. Not all builds/strategies fit the same battles. Read Heyyon's post for in-game experience.
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Quickrunner's shirt only works 1/day, and you're presumably going to be slower than your allies (capped in Dex as you are, wearing lighter armor is probably a no-go). Again your usefulness only extends to standing around an ally to provide a substantial bonus to a single defense out of a multitude of attack options.
Also...
There are more strategies in this game than Zerg Rush. Everyone here assumes the party works 1. Charge 2. End of battle. Do ask first how the party works before you fall into the error of assumption.
I don't think anyone's thought that. If combat was simply a zerg rush then making a little stand around your AC-pylon might be a good idea, but D&D/PF combat is more robust than that and you are more vulnerable to getting attacked in a lot of unique and wonderful ways.
You only need to move to where your allies are in order to become an incredible force.
For example, if you're high on the initiative, lower it so that you go just before your ally. SPEAK to your team mate and ask them where they'd like to go. You moved. Their turn. They move. They go before you? Ask them to hold actions until you act, so long as there aren't any dangerous foes in between your two initiatives.
You can also have different tactics you use in different situations (I know, charge then ask is the most popular but there are others).Ironically everyone here saying that this sucks cause it's a teamwork game isn't actually thinking about what makes a team a team. Strategy and cooperation.
Oh no, it's definitely considered. Most of said people here that are advising against this course of action are the same sorts of people who advocate the exact same things for the purposes of the Superstitution rage power. It's not about charging in or movement, it's about gimping yourself and making you less useful to your team.
A standard garden variety Paladin can already go a great length to defend their teammates, even so far as to absorbing half their incoming damage. But a standard garden variety Paladin also has the ability to heal themselves and remove bad status ailments (like staggered and nauseated) without having to play musical chairs with their weaponry. If they need to, they can call on their smite to remove a high-profile target to keep the target either A) focused on taking the Paladin out, or B) kill the target so it cannot harm the party further.
This build revolves around being a one-trick pony that gets worse and worse as you gain levels.
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Having a tank in the group most certainly opens some strategic doors. Don't belittle a PC that can't fight at range, but is invincible in close quarters, because they are needed.
That said, make sure paladin isn't helpless in the key situations where lots of armor is a bad thing (swimming, climbing, running and jumping).
I will add that a tough DM will get the "Pilum" melee weapon into the game. It's a real nasty one that if they can hit your AC, you lose the shield bonus until you spend a full round to remove it. Nasty weapon against tower shield users.
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Having a tank in the group most certainly opens some strategic doors. Don't belittle a PC that can't fight at range, but is invincible in close quarters, because they are needed.
Where's the Paladin that's invincible in close quarters?
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Not to mention classic tanking doesn't work all that well in Pathfinder, since there are no mechanics to force the enemies to go after the big tough guys instead of the squishy wizards. Sure, sometimes you'll be fighting in narrow tunnels or restrictive terrain against enemies who only have conventional movement options, but that's going to be a lot less common as the levels go up. Once you start facing teleporting or flying enemies, conventional tanking just can't happen.
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Well, the holy shield supposedly makes you a better target, but it only works vs 1 enemy, and only on attacks... so it's kinda useless past a certain point.
Past level 0 I'd say. My kobolds would wreck that. Plus once you've hit the evasion cap, excess AC doesn't matter. Also "useless at range" translates to "suicidal".
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The more you post, the harder it gets for me to consider you an emotionally stable human being.
Let me explain this in a manner that is more blunt and less polite, in contrast to my previous attempts to have a normal conversation. I apologise if your next few days of life will be spent being angry and posting in a score of different threads how various archetypes and character concepts should not have the right to exist because they do not make use of perfectly optimized tactics.
I asked for help building a Tower Shield using Paladin. I didn't ask for your opinion on its efficiency.
The more you post, the harder it gets for me to consider you an emotionally stable human being.
Let me explain this in a manner that is more blunt and less polite, in contrast to my previous attempts to have a normal conversation. I apologise if your next few days of life will be spent being angry and posting in a score of different threads how various archetypes and character concepts should not have the right to exist because they do not make use of perfectly optimized tactics.
I asked for help building a Tower Shield using Paladin. I didn't ask for your opinion on its efficiency.
Jeez dude. Who pissed in your cereal to make you so mad about people trying to help?
Some people care about their characters being effective and nailing their concept at a mechanical, gameplay level. Not everyone plays that way- beer and pretzels is a legit way to RPG- but since you came to the advice section of the forums, it was a safe assumption that you wanted advice. If you weren't going to care about people's input on your idea, you could have just made a paladin and slapped a tower shield on them no problem.
That's not helping. That is, in fact, considered as derailing a thread and naysaying. It has nothing to do with the original request.
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The more you post, the harder it gets for me to consider you an emotionally stable human being.
For all the instability that is I, emotionally isn't the definitive that I'd have expected. Surprise for me! :D
Let me explain this in a manner that is more blunt and less polite, in contrast to my previous attempts to have a normal conversation. I apologise if your next few days of life will be spent being angry and posting in a score of different threads how various archetypes and character concepts should not have the right to exist because they do not make use of perfectly optimized tactics.
Angry? Hm, it might be my innate emotional instability but I'm not really seein' the angry you mention. I do think that archetypes shouldn't gimp a character and should be able to stand on their own merit but that's a side conversation for another time. What I did say is that the Paladin laid out here is very bad at the goals that it was built to do (protect its party, be good at surviving, etc).
What I'm seeing is a Paladin that's easier to kill, less mobile, functions poorly in a variety of environments (dat check penalty D:), has no meaningful contribution to the party unless it's humping their collective legs, and can't do anything against creatures outside of its melee range (which can be a truly staggering amount of foes and it grows more and more obvious as you begin running into creatures with spells, breath weapons, ranged touch attacks, etc). In essence the only thing that it does do is hold a tower shield while failing at all other projected goals.
Call me concerned for your both your time and your party. :\
I asked for help building a Tower Shield using Paladin. I didn't ask for your opinion on its efficiency.
Then why are you even asking for advice if you are so utterly uncaring as to the pros and cons of the object you desire advice for?
Want a Paladin that uses a Tower shield and you don't care how efficient it is? Easy. Have a Paladin pick up a tower shield. Done. The end. However, you laid out some goals, and your fascination with tower shields is actively hindering those goals (practically dragging them out back and shooting them in the head like Old Yeller).
When I see a character build that would be laughed at by generic kobolds even into mid levels I'm a little concerned about its validity. Seeing a completely inept character makes me concerned for the other players who are going to have to pull the extra weight and lose out on experience points and loot while babysitting a PC that doesn't actually do anything.
I am asking for advice for building the desired concept, not whether it is good or not.
I laid out some goals, and none of them actually mention anything you've advised, if you in fact go back and read the first post.
I'm afraid you and I are playing different games if kobolds would laugh at a player character.
That being said, I'm going to stop necroing a thread that has already served its purpose. Have a nice day.
I'm afraid you and I are playing different games if kobolds would laugh at a player character.
I think this is a Reference to an encounter Experiment posted a long time ago, whete a bunch of simple kobolds made an encounter very challenging by way of smart tactics.
Again, if you fight a big evil dragon, give me a sacred Shield. Bunch of kobolds? Individuals wont be useless and breaking their smart strategy isnt going about hitting hard. Its stupid yo invalidate 1 build because of 1 encounter, talk to any rogue vs thinga that cant be sneak attack, or any caster susprised in meele combat.
I wanted to drop to mention the BattlemOracle as a possibility multiclass. Or the Phalanax fighter which can 1h a polearm, giving reach and some Battlefield Control.
Also the spring attack feat, in case you need to move but still want to attack.
Good Luck With your Tower door, and have fun.
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I am asking for advice for building the desired concept, not whether it is good or not.
The problem is you have two mutually exclusive character concepts.
One (and by far the weakest, mechanically and thematically) is "Uses a Tower Shield.
The other is "Protects his team from harm effectively".
It's not your archetype choice that's the problem. Sacred Shield is pretty bad comparatively, but it has some merits, and definitely fits the theme.
The Tower Shield aspect, however, actively hinders your ability to do the second thing. Sacred Shield's short range on its Smite replacement means you, by necessity, need to be able to move with your party.
Plonking down your Tower Shield doesn't allow you to do that.
You see the problem?
If you just wanted to use the Tower Shield, you had no need for advice. There was no purpose to this thread. There really isn't any way to optimize a Tower Shield.
Step 1: Equip a Tower Shield
Step 2: Regret equipping a Tower Shield.
That's pretty much the chain of events, here, unless maybe, MAYBE you're a Tower Shield Specialist, which is Fighter, not Paladin.
(Sorry, I had to be doing some other stuff for a few days, so I couldn't respond right away.)
UnArcane,
Helpful trait: No variation. It's RAW the way I stated it. When the words "replace" or "instead of" are involved, it's a replacement. The base bonus changes to a +4 (thus, it would *not* stack with the other helpful trait). When those words are not, the standard rule of similar bonus types do not stack (except for dodge and sometimes circumstance). So... we could get a trait bonus and stack it with a trait that replaces the bonus.
So in other words, when a Trait changes a Bonus (of some non-Trait type), the increase is NOT considered a Trait Bonus? Weird . . . If that was what was intended, I wish they had been more explicit.
Lit of Sloth: For our uber-defender, I feel like we'd be more interested in either solving the problem of area effect damage or saves before movement. Then again, getting everyone into position is a rather useful tool.
It is situational. If you have a bunch of Rogue (or Rogue substitute) friends, AND you didn't trade in spells for Warrior of the Holy Light (which actually becomes an even better idea given the Cleric dip ideas posted by Martain in between our posts), AND you know you're going up against an AoO boss, by all means go for it.
On Battle Herald: I am unsure if this class isn't a trap. There are benefits and drawbacks. For the most part, the uber-defender is free to take whatever after 4th level. Once the shield bonus can be pushed to +5, it's all up in the air. Would playing into battle herald really be better than Skald levels? Or a dip into Cavalier then Skald/Bard?
Problem with Bard and Skald is your armor (that you need to make the rest of this build work) is going to cramp your style, even if current RAW allowing them to use the Tower Shield without penalty doesn't get Errata'd. Although if you initially confine yourself mainly to spells with no Somatic component and eventually get Still Spell, you might be able to make it work. (It's not totally hosed without this, because armor doesn't hurt Bardic Performance unless I missed something hidden in a weird place about Armor Check Penalties, but as a Bard or Skald your spells are important enough that you don't want to nerf them without getting something in return.)
On an odd build concept: Have we thought about Half-Orc Pal (SS) 4, Skald 1, Cavalier 1, Skald X? Skald can be any alignment, which means Paladin + Skald = RAGE PALADIN. This flavor alone makes me want to play it. But... Half-Orc can get Amplified Rage, which he can share via Cavalier and trigger via Skald. So... we stay in tight formation, but you're giving +6 STR, +6 CON, +2 Will, and -2 AC. The AC penalty is offset rather nicely from the giant shield bonus you hand out. I believe this would qualify for your "offensive capabilities" that you wanted so badly? Even if we just roll into a fight with a 1 HD pet, it can trigger the Amplified Rage nicely enough. I think there's a feat that buffs your effective druid level to add to that? Thoughts?
Depends upon whether you are going to be getting enough total levels that you can afford to spend 5 levels in Cavalier. If you can, you can get Horsemaster, which makes your total Character Level count as your effective Druid level for your pet. Otherwise, you can get Boon Companion to add levels to your pet, but this is only good for 4 levels. Even if Improved Boon Companion and Greater Boon companion feats existed (last I checked, they don't) to extend this further in 4 level increments, it would be a pretty hefty Feat Tax, needing to take an additional feat for this every 4 levels.
On Smite Evil: We'd get two smites for 4th level pally. A third can be had with Bracers of the Avenging Knight. I think three fights in which the BBEG is doing 1/2 damage is enough to win the day?
Going to depend upon the campaign. I'd estimate that in Wrath of the Righteous, it probably WON'T be enough once you get past the first couple of chapters, although I haven't actually gotten to see what happens that far in, so take this with a grain of salt.
{. . .} When I see a character build that would be laughed at by generic kobolds even into mid levels I'm a little concerned about its validity. {. . .}
Indeed, swarming enemies are your bane with this build. But that is why you wouldn't make everyone in your party with this build -- you have other characters in the party who can deal with this. For this purpose, a fairly generic Arcanist or Wizard, or even certain builds of other 9/9 casters (especially but not limited to Sorcerer) is your friend of choice, or failing that, even martial types with Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack. Let THEM deal with that kind of enemy -- just don't get caught alone against that kind of enemy (although you probably don't want to get caught alone against that kind of enemy even with a totally different build); also see Armor Spikes below.
Possible thoughts on how to better make a Tower Shield/Sacred Shield Paladin
Lay on Hands: The Reload Approach
Take a cleric level dip to gain a separate channel pool. Day before adventure store pool into Meditation Crystals (100 gp each, reusable). Next day replenish your lay on hand charges.
EX: +5 CHA = 9 channel energy. Start the day with capacity for 18 lay on hand refills.
The Meditation Crystal text:: "Though this focus is usually a hand-sized crystal, the exact form (such as a wooden idol, an iron disk, and so on) may vary for some religions. A monk or paladin of the cleric’s faith may concentrate upon an activated meditation crystal, taking no actions for 1 minute, and regain 1 ki point or one use of lay on hands. Once activated, the crystal retains its energy until a monk or paladin uses it for this purpose or 24 hours pass."
This sounds cool, but am I missing some additional Meditation Crystal text from somewhere else that lets you recharge them with Channel Energy?
Tower Shield Feat: The Feat Tax approach
If you're taking a cleric dip, take the cleric Crusader archetype to gain Tower Shield proficiency for free. The cool dip into the channel pool just got better!
Not really free, since you have to spend one of the bonus feats it grants on Tower Shield proficiency, but at least it is giving you bonus feats that Cleric normally doesn't give. As an alternative, Evangelist archetype of Cleric would give you Bardic Performance if you want that for buffing your allies, although it does cut 1d6 of Channel Energy, and without the Meditation Crystal text I'm apparently missing, I'm not sure how much this would delay the Meditation Crystal strategy from working at full power. Unfortunately it is an alternative, because Crusader and Evangelist archetypes clash (they both alter Domains).
Lay on Hands Self: Be the Phoenix - Lesser
Use the Lvl 1 spell Hero's defiance. Add a few pearls of power and even if you do go down, you're coming right back up. Because it's an immediate spell whose only component is verbal, it doesn't matter whether your hand is free. Add in Bracers of the Merciful Knight w/wo Fey Foundling or Greater Mercy feats and soon you'll be doing better than a breath of life spell!
This is another one of those Paladin spells that is pretty powerful in the right situation, and it doesn't scale with additional Paladin spellcasting (you're not even trying to overcome an enemy's potential Spell Resistance, and the only scaling is with your own Lay on Hands), so this is not bad if you DIDN'T trade out Paladin spellcasting for Warrior of the Holy Light. Unfortunately you can't cast it from your Cleric spellcasting. Also, the idea of all your shielding is to keep you from getting into this mess in the first place -- if you go down anyway, it likely means that an enemy has figured out how to get around all that, and you're probably going down again real soon.
Lay on Hands Self: Be the Phoenix - Greater
Take the Quick Channel + Reactive Healing feats and call yourself a phoenix! Benefits from the same item/feats above.
This has the same potential second problem as the lesser version above, but on the other hand, it doesn't clash with going Warrior of the Holy Light, which gives you more Lay On Hands to use for this purpose as well as others, including the Radiant Charge strategy (omitted here for space).
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How to overcome the loss of Smite Evil abilityHow to overcome inability to use lay on hands on self when holding tower shield.
Gauntlets: The Facepalm Approach
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Armor Spikes: The Shoulder Approach
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Weapon Cord: The Handy ApproachDrop your weapon (free action) then heal (swift action). Next turn pick your weapon back up as a swift and away you go.
These are good, but the last one may be the best for ensuring that you can actually do some serious damage. (But they are not mutually exclusive -- you're loading up anyway, so might as well do it right. Although armor spikes potentially could be uncomfortable for your friends that are huddling close by . . . but on the other hand, they do help with the swarming enemies problem, since one of the things swarming enemies would want to do is Grapple, and this will really put a crimp in their plans.)
How to negate evil outsider's teleportation capacities later on.
Oath against Fiends: The None Shall Pass Approach
20 ft aura at level 8 to basically negate outsider teleportation capabilities. Archetype is compatible with Sacred Shield archetype.
This is good too. Unfortunately incompatible with Warrior of the Holy Light (because Oath Against Fiends modifies Spells, which Warrior of the Holy Light trades out). Also, now I have this Monty Python scene stuck in my head . . . .
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Having a tank in the group most certainly opens some strategic doors. Don't belittle a PC that can't fight at range, but is invincible in close quarters, because they are needed.Where's the Paladin that's invincible in close quarters?
I was most certainly exaggerating the concept. Though I could probably get pretty close if the only point is a twink close quarters defender...
If you just wanted to use the Tower Shield, you had no need for advice. There was no purpose to this thread. There really isn't any way to optimize a Tower Shield.
Step 1: Equip a Tower Shield
Step 2: Regret equipping a Tower Shield.
That's pretty much the chain of events, here, unless maybe, MAYBE you're a Tower Shield Specialist, which is Fighter, not Paladin.
Pretty much agree
You don't have to deploy the tower shield (as in, the cover ability). The base +4 AC is pretty nice, especially at low levels.
As for optimization, I do agree that the fighter has it much easier than the other classes. There are a few fighter archetypes which excel with tower shields (Phalanx, Tower Shield Specialist, and Armor Master).
For the paladin, basically, the -2 on attack rolls hurts and your going to need to regain those losses somehow. I'll also note that you cannot use the shield hand to cast spells, like you could with a normal shield, which hurts the paladin. The shield is really heavy too, which will add to encumberance, especially as your likely in heavy armor as well. You also can't make shield bashes with the tower shield, which again, really hurts the paladin.
In all honesty, I don't think the paladin benefits enough from a tower shield to dedicate a class to it.
You could look into wielding two shields, using a smaller spiked shield for the class abilities and for attacking with, then using the tower shield for your shield bonus. Not a great plan, either.
I really think the best bet for a tower shield is to wield it untrained, but only when you really need it. Just carry it on your back the rest of the time (if strong enough). Untrained you still get the AC bonus, it just adds that -10 to all skill checks, instead of just str and dex skills.
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Note:
Oath Against Fiends, Divine Defender, Sacred Shield, Warrior of Holy Light are compatible with one another as far as I can tell. {. . .}
I like the other stuff you wrote (and Favorited it), but Divine Defender and Sacred Shield both modify Divine Bond, so these archetypes clash.
I really think the best bet for a tower shield is to wield it untrained, but only when you really need it. Just carry it on your back the rest of the time (if strong enough). Untrained you still get the AC bonus, it just adds that -10 to all skill checks, instead of just str and dex skills.
That's incorrect. Armor Check Penalties still only applies to str and dex skills when you're wearing armor you're not proficient in.
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.
Eating a -10 to attack rolls (on top of the -2 you already take just for using a tower shield at all) would mean you could pretty much give up on ever hitting anything.
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I really think the best bet for a tower shield is to wield it untrained, but only when you really need it. Just carry it on your back the rest of the time (if strong enough). Untrained you still get the AC bonus, it just adds that -10 to all skill checks, instead of just str and dex skills.That's incorrect. Armor Check Penalties still only applies to str and dex skills when you're wearing armor you're not proficient in.
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.Eating a -10 to attack rolls (on top of the -2 you already take just for using a tower shield at all) would mean you could pretty much give up on ever hitting anything.
Wasn't sure. Thanks for the correction.
Anyway, still adds to AC, so if the +4 AC really mattered....
I wonder what advice from the thread Gulian decided to use. All of the disdain for a tower shield carrying Paladin has me kind of interested in building one even if it is just at a theoretical level. The light shield toting Bard/Paladin I played in a previous campaign was sometimes called "unhittable" though that was clearly hyperbole. I'd think that somebody with a tower shield could probably top his AC or at least come close without devoting so much to Dex and defenses.
To those who feel like a Fighter might be better I have to say from recent in game experience that Divine Grace alone probably makes the Paladin a more effective class. Being an effective attacker is almost a drawback for a Fighter since with a low Will save it is tough to be sure you'll be fighting for the right side instead of turning on your friends or babbling incoherently. I once played a low Will save PC in an AP with great success, but in a homebrew game run by a DM who targets Will saves frequently the Fighter sometimes feels like a counterproductive character. Taking a few levels of Fighter to get some feats and maybe a mutagen would be great, but Paladin seems more well rounded overall.
That's not to say that playing something painfully suboptimal can't be fun sometimes though. In fact, I'd guess that the OP is hoping to "make the most" of a challenging character concept.
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I really think the best bet for a tower shield is to wield it untrained, but only when you really need it. Just carry it on your back the rest of the time (if strong enough). Untrained you still get the AC bonus, it just adds that -10 to all skill checks, instead of just str and dex skills.
In addition to the -10 penalty to attack rolls...
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
I'm just going to let that sink in for a moment. >_>