Power Attack on Opportunity Attacks


Rules Questions


Hi!

I have been a lurker here for a while, and now a question has come up in our game. My GM is saying I cannot activate the Power Attack feat on Attacks of Opportunity. Main example: I have combat reflexes, and the enemy provokes prior to my turn in the opening round of combat. Can I use Power Attack? He says no, and here is his reasoning:

Quote:

Attack Roll (from Core): An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Quote:
Power Attack (from Core): ... You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.

Now, he claims that AoO's are not attack rolls, and so Power Attack doesn't apply. I think this is bogus because of the following post from Sean:

Quote:

I can't find anything in the rules that says you have to activate PA before your first attack of your turn, or on your turn at all. Thus, you could activate it between your primary attack and your offhand, or your primary and your 1st iterative, or between your last iterative and an AOO. All are valid options. Some are poor choices, but they are still valid choices.

The dev quote is here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ms5f&page=2?Can-you-turn-on-Power-Attack-d uring-an-AoO#76

From reading the thread, it appears the consensus is that you can Power Attack on AoO's, but can someone help me with evidence here?

Thanks!

Scarab Sages

Dunno what's right, but our group has been allowing power attacks on AoOs for quite some time. In terms of balance, as long as the PCs and NPCs use it the same and know about it ahead of time, it shouldn't present a huge issue.


The evidence is all there in the rules your Gm just doesn't want to follow them.

A very basic one would be from the Power Attack feat is that it says that 'its effects last until your next turn' if you couldn't use it on AoOs there'd be no point to that part of the description.


You have the wording of the feat and a quote from a dev, you should not need much more evidence.


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This is so obvious that it is really cheap rule lawyering from the DM...

the AoO sections says:"In this case, combatants near her
can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for
free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity".

Now if thoses attacks from AoO are not attack rolls, ask him how he resolves those attacks according to RAW...

Attack rolls are used for every attacks...

Dread Knight's point is also compelling...When you use PA on your regular turn, it'S penalties and bonus apply until your next turn...

Liberty's Edge

Normally, you would activate it during your turn, and it would last until the start of your next turn. In that case, since it's been activated, you would be able to use it for an AoO.

That being said, it doesn't mention that it requires any type of action to activate it (such as a free action). It just says that you have to choose to use it before you make a melee attack roll.

An AoO is most definitely a melee attack roll, thus, you can choose to use it before making an AoO. The description under Attacks of Opportunity: Making an Attack of Opportunity says that it is a melee attack. More specifically, it is "a single melee attack".

EDIT: Ninja'd, but I did add something to the conversation. ;-)
EDIT2: holy crap, the auto-correct on my new iPad murdered that one.


If an Attack of Opportunity is not an Attack Roll...then what is it?

Ask your DM that question and ask him what he says and when he spews out that load of bs ask him to back it up with some form of text based rule.

If he still sticks to his guns then just let him know that if you can't power attack on AoO's then the baddies and npc's shouldn't be able to either.

Scarab Sages

Well, I'll note here that it is ultimately up to the DM to allow any and all rules in his/her group.

The question that needs to be asked, is if the DM is playing it this way because they decided it works this way, or because they think it works this way. It could just be one of those failed to mention house rules.


The issue here doesn't seem to be 'do AoO get modified by power attacks'. It seems to be more of when can you switch on power attack?

You're flat-flatfooted at the beginning of combat, but are very dexterous and reactive (combat reflexes), can you set your feet and make multiple solid swings even if an enemy has the drop on you? Even so solid as to apply other feats such as pushing assault so that they'd never get near you?

My opinion, make the attacks sure, be able to power attack on them, no. You've not made any preparation on your turn to do so.

You're spell caster with a hefty hammer, can you make the transition between delicate casting to devastating swings immediately afterwards in case someone walks by?

My opinion, make the attack sure, make a power attack, no, you barely have your hands back on your weapon.

You're fighting lackadaisically and you swing your great axe a couple times on your turn aiming to hit, but decided you're going to hit someone as hard as you can if you get the chance.

Sure, go for it, your feet are set, you've already had a practice swing, swing away!


I think you have to activate power attack on your turn, and then it applies to all attacks (including AoO's) until your next turn.

I don't think you can choose to activate it on an AoO if you didn't use it on your turn.


Caliban_ wrote:

I think you have to activate power attack on your turn, and then it applies to all attacks (including AoO's) until your next turn.

I don't think you can choose to activate it on an AoO if you didn't use it on your turn.

You can choose to activate Power Attack anytime you make an attack roll, and it doesn't require any type of action.


Calth wrote:
Caliban_ wrote:

I think you have to activate power attack on your turn, and then it applies to all attacks (including AoO's) until your next turn.

I don't think you can choose to activate it on an AoO if you didn't use it on your turn.

You can choose to activate Power Attack anytime you make an attack roll, and it doesn't require any type of action.

Hmph, I'd forgotten how much they rewrote that feat from 3.5. It used to say "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round", but that language is missing from the Pathfinder version.

Yeah, looks like you can turn it on before any attack, and once it's on it applies until your next turn.

Silver Crusade

All my characters with the Power Attack feat have a note that says, "Always Power Attacks unless I don't". Only ever had a problem once, and that GM allowed it in future after I wrote it on the character sheet.


Ok!

My worry is the text in 'Attack Roll' from the CRB specifically indicates that attack rolls are made during your turn. I think this is not an intended restriction, otherwise many abilities that modify and/or restrict attack rolls would not apply to opportunity attacks. So, I believe that an AoO is an attack roll. Therefore, by the reading of Power Attack, one can activate it prior to making an AoO.

I'd really like some sort of confirmation that the restriction on Attack Roll in the CRB is just fluff. I do notice that AoO's in the CRB are described as granting a melee attack - but they do not use the word attack roll.

Can anyone clarify that a melee attack is an attack roll when it is not on your turn?


Magda Luckbender wrote:
All my characters with the Power Attack feat have a note that says, "Always Power Attacks unless I don't". Only ever had a problem once, and that GM allowed it in future after I wrote it on the character sheet.

I do the same.

Also for long-term low-level spells (i.e. Mage Armor) once my PC gets to a high enough level (usually 4th and higher). Just assume my PC casts those when (s)he wakes up and whenever they expire and I mark those spell slots as used unless I state otherwise.

Makes life easier for the player and GM alike and prevents stupid arguments.


ThePaco wrote:

My worry is the text in 'Attack Roll' from the CRB specifically indicates that attack rolls are made during your turn...

I'd really like some sort of confirmation that the restriction on Attack Roll in the CRB is just fluff. I do notice that AoO's in the CRB are described as granting a melee attack - but they do not use the word attack roll.

Agreed that this needs clarified.

"Sean K Reynolds" wrote:


I can't find anything in the rules that says you have to activate PA before your first attack of your turn, or on your turn at all. Thus, you could activate it between your primary attack and your offhand, or your primary and your 1st iterative, or between your last iterative and an AOO. All are valid options. Some are poor choices, but they are still valid choices.

"I can't find anything in the rules that says you have to activate PA ... on your turn at all."

All is resolved if attack rolls wording isn't meant to be 'on your turn,' but I don't know how many other issues changing that wording would cause.

My suggested interpretation of power attack:

Activate power attack: 1) it is the beginning of your turn, or 2) you have made a previous melee attack on your turn in the current round or on your turn in the previous round (if your turn has not come up yet in the current round.) It must be activated before a melee attack is made and remains in effect until the beginning of your next turn.

Scarab Sages

Magda Luckbender wrote:
All my characters with the Power Attack feat have a note that says, "Always Power Attacks unless I don't". Only ever had a problem once, and that GM allowed it in future after I wrote it on the character sheet.

Same, always a power attack unless mentioned otherwise. Occasionally you need the extra attack roll.


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ThePaco wrote:


Now, he claims that AoO's are not attack rolls, and so Power Attack doesn't apply. I think this is bogus because of the following post from Sean:

A quote from Sean isn't what makes this bogus.

That takes some serious stupid right there. Next time you make an AoO, just tell him you hit, and roll damage.

When he says "You forgot your attack roll" you know how to respond.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If an attack of opportunity isn't an attack roll, then you can't apply Weapon Focus to it, the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon (or a real weapon to do nonlethal damage), the enhancement bonus from a magical weapon, or any number of other things that only apply to attack rolls.

Share that bit of logic with your GM, and he may see the error of his ways.


I see the only on your turn thing as the basic rules which can be modified by other rules to be different, such as the AoO rules.


Developer commentary can be found here.

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