I'm trying to rewrite the monk for my games. I'm not worried about power, it's about focus. I read that the monk is somewhat incoherent, not exactly knowing what it wants to be/do. The monk feels a little like it's just like a bunch of random class features with no cohesion.
Do you think the monk isn't cohesive enough? What do you think the monk should do?
Pick up the Genius Guide to the Talented Monk, and its supplement More Monk Talents. That's what they monk should do. ;)
I think the Monk is cohesive and the only issue with the RAW Monk is power.
The Monk, the way I see it, is fit to be less of a damage dealer and more of a support-based character that attempts to disable and weaken enemies, protecting the party positionally (that is, wherever the Monk is, that's supposed to be a safe place for the rest).
To do this, the Monk gets a few tools:
- Stunning Fist to disable enemies.
- Unarmed Strike for automatically scaling damage so it can focus on other stuff.
- Good saves all over, plus an incentive to invest more in WIS to get impenetrable Will saves.
- Low AC to draw attention to him.
- Immunity to poisons and disease to be able to sustain all kinds of damage on him.
- Spell Resistance and Evasion to become protected against spell barrages.
- Extra speed and Abundant Step to reposition and move towards allies that are far from the group to assist them, or to show up next to a threat that needs to be put down.
- Maneuver Training to have good CMB to perform maneuvers to stop enemies.
- Lots of other fun toolz.
Now, that seems like a pretty complete package. But why don't it work?
The problem the Monk has is that in spite of everything it comes with, it has two grave issues:
1. MADness, cause it needs STR to hit, DEX for initiative and extra AC, WIS for AC, ki and DC, CON to have some HP. While Fighters have similar necessities, they can have 12 or 14 on WIS and just patch up their Will saves with feats and the like, while Monks would have to use up all their feats to improve their spread-out requirements.
2. The dependance on Flurry for accuracy means that every time the Monk has to move, they can't Stunning Fist because they might lose the attempt for naught. Plus, when dealing with enemies that can quickly reposition too, the Monk doesn't have the tools to keep up putting pressure on that enemy, while the enemy is free to pelt the Monk arrows, attack its average CMD, or wait until the Monk runs out of resources.
Those issues are fixed by WIS-to-attack (Zen Archer/Sensei) and pounce (Pummeling Style or ranged builds).
Another alternative to WIS-to-attack is focusing on damage dealing like the Weapon Adept or the Sohei do, trading in some disabling power.
One of my favorite builds is the Stunning Fist specialist Sensei Monk, which is a master disabler, buffer and debuffer, but with very low damage (unless I get Ki Diversity (Zen Warrior) I guess).
Throwing weapon/ranged builds get past the kiting weakness as well. Far Strike Monk and Zen Archer are the main guys in that situation, Harrow Warden could work too. (Harrow Warden is awesome for the thing the Monk cannot do for s*+~ -- disabling big enemies. With the ability to target Will saves and throw Starknives on a flurry, the Harrow Warden can keep a dragon hard cursed.)
So yeah, I think the CRB Monk is ok on focus, just not so much on power,
If anything, I'd simultaneously give the CRB Monk - 1. an incentive NOT to go Weapon Finesse so it isn't mandatory for Monks; OR 2 - a baseline conversion feature like Weapon Finesse or Zen Warrior so they become a three stat class.
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I think the Monk is cohesive
The monk's abilities are a total mishmash of unrelated concepts. Teleportation, speaking with animals and plants, immortality, etherealness ... it's a crazy mess. I've no idea where they came up with most of this.
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It's not so much that the monk isn't cohesive enough. For what it is supposed to do, it works, just monks when it comes to party are closer to being the 5th wheel in any party. There is virtually no obstacles or situation where you absolutely need a monk to accomplish anything. The only spotlight I vaguely remember and even that isn't much in one module, you encounter a mummy of irori and if you happen to be worshiping that deity, which is most likely a monk, the mummy let you pass without any fighting.
@eltacolibre: play a sensei monk sometime.
I think the Monk is cohesiveThe monk's abilities are a total mishmash of unrelated concepts. Teleportation, speaking with animals and plants, immortality, etherealness ... it's a crazy mess. I've no idea where they came up with most of this.
The flavor comes from kung fu films and folk tales.
But i meant the monk was mechanically cohesive, as per the long ass post I wrote. Perhaps you care more for streamlined flavor. Can't help there.
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For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield—it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
i used these guiding principles to rewrite my monk.
The reason Qinggong is so popular, and lauded as the best class 'fix' is because it allows the Monk to throw out non-cohesive abilities and focus on that role you want to fill. It's the same reason a lot of the Monk Archetypes are considered powerful. MoMS, Zen Archer, Sohei, Sensei, Maneuver Master, Flowing Monk, Hungry Ghost.
Focus is exactly what the Monk needs. When they focus on one thing, Monks are useful. When they try to debuff and stun and flurry and trip and grapple and tank, they fall apart. The Monk cannot actually be the jack of all trades that his diverse skillset might lead you to assume.
To me, I see the monk as a self-sufficient, mobile fighter that makes trade offs in exchange for greater item independence and special attacks that deal impressive damage or disable foes. The monk should do all this while retaining the theme of becoming a mystical warrior that needs only himself and his iron will
While the monk has great defensive abilities, I do think the monk lacks the offensive power to truly realize character concepts that are ever present throughout history and media. You can't really be Bruce Lee or Kenshiro because monks lack that offensive ability.
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I've thought for a while the Monk should be 3 different classes, because there's about enough material in a single class to make one, with some tweaks.
I made up some rough concept [urlhttp://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qkpr?Monk-Class-Replacements#1]here[/url] but never finished them. I think I'll finish them up, ban Monk, and replace him with these next time I run a game. Considering doing something similar for Fighter and Rogue.
TL;DR version:
All share the Unarmed Strike and AC Bonus features.
Ascetic: The "caster Monk". It gets all of the super magical powers (Abundant Step and what have you), and 6th level casting.
Martial Artist: The Wuxia film star. Hand to hand combat with the fantastic, but not overtly magical powers liek uivering Palm and the various resistances.
Enlightened Warrior: A middle ground between the two. Somewhat like a Paladin, but based more into Law over Good. Gets Qinggong abilities among other stuff.
While the monk has great defensive abilities, I do think the monk lacks the offensive power to truly realize character concepts that are ever present throughout history and media. You can't really be Bruce Lee or Kenshiro because monks lack that offensive ability.
I completely disagree that they lack offensive power. Flurry of Blow is absolutely amazing, especially with Power Attack. The biggest problem with their offensive capability is that the class is hard to optimize and their BAB is bad for a fighting class.
Flurry of Blows forces you into the weakest melee fighting style, and the class receives none of the other benefits that might make it worthwhile (like massive amounts of extra damage added to each hit, like Favored Enemy or Sneak Attack).
What rynjin said has a point. They need to be able to do that extra damage. Incorporate it into flurry of blows and call it pressure points or something. For each successful hit with flurry of blows each strike gain an additional +1 to damage. Make them hit a little harder so that they can keep up.
Honestly, I feel like just giving them a full BAB and lessen the burden of MADness would help most of their issues. The monk can already get lots of extra damage via Power Attack, which is normally something normal TWF specialists can't really make use of. Power Attack is really good for monks because they add their full Strength to the extra attacks in FOB. This means each hit gets the normal bonus damage from Power Attack instead of half the bonus damage. And if monks were full BAB classes, they can pick up Power Attack at 1st level.
Honestly, I feel like just giving them a full BAB and lessen the burden of MADness would help most of their issues. The monk can already get lots of extra damage via Power Attack, which is normally something normal TWF specialists can't really make use of. Power Attack is really good for monks because they add their full Strength to the extra attacks in FOB. This means each hit gets the normal bonus damage from Power Attack instead of half the bonus damage. And if monks were full BAB classes, they can pick up Power Attack at 1st level.
*cough*Brawler*cough*
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What I want is the monk to be able to wallrun or run on water with judicious use of ki.
What I want is the monk to be throwing Kamehamehamehadoukens. (Or Masenko-Has, or Special Beam CannonDevil's Screw Cannons, or Final Flashes.)
What I want is the monk to get Lay on Hands Lite with ki.
What I want is the monk to use ki to charge and make one unarmed attack + 1d12 damage. (...Yes, I liked the Flying Jump Kick feat from Complete Warrior. I think it was Complete Warrior? Too lazy to check it.)
What I want is a monk to not have to pick between "I can use fast movement" and "I can punch somebody eight times in six seconds" every round.
Hell, what I want is "Pick Strength or Dexterity, key that to your unarmed attack, no questions asked."
(I guess this boils down to "What I want is a monk that's half Goku, half Sabin Figaro.")
Honestly, I feel like just giving them a full BAB and lessen the burden of MADness would help most of their issues. The monk can already get lots of extra damage via Power Attack, which is normally something normal TWF specialists can't really make use of. Power Attack is really good for monks because they add their full Strength to the extra attacks in FOB. This means each hit gets the normal bonus damage from Power Attack instead of half the bonus damage. And if monks were full BAB classes, they can pick up Power Attack at 1st level.*cough*Brawler*cough*
The only reasons to take a brawler over a sacred fist is flavour or wanting to avoid the effort of managing a spell caster.
I've been playing a lot of 5th Edition lately, and they made some nice changes.
Maybe give the monk the ability to move their speed and make full attacks, and choose to use Str, Dex, or (maybe) Wis to their attack and damage rolls.
I think it would be neat if monks could add their Wisdom bonus to attack rolls whenever they get a situational attack bonus due to positioning, such as flanking, higher ground, or Aid Another.
I think it would be cool if monks could pick two out of the following abilities and apply them to unarmored AC instead of just Dex: Con, Dex, or Wis. So some would be Dex and Con, some Dex and Wis, and some Con and Wis.
EDIT:
And increase the number of Ki points! Level + Wis mod would be neat.
Also, For ki strike, make it an actual enhancement bonus of +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels.
"I want to suplex a train."
It's okay to just say it. We're all friends here.
I've been testing out one of my homemade archetypes (for a boss) and it basically made one of the most fun characters I have played in a while: Deranged Hermit.
Basically let's you Flurry as a Standard Action for a short number of rounds per day at the cost of mobility... or you can just keep your mobility to serve as a AoO bot.
It's missing reach, that's for sure.
I think 5th Edition's monk might be good to look at-- one of the few things I liked about the book. The 5e monk lets you choose one of three traditions. One makes you a mystic martial artist, one makes you a ninja with shadow powers, and the third gives you ki blasts and elemental powers.
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I think 5th Edition's monk might be good to look at-- one of the few things I liked about the book. The 5e monk lets you choose one of three traditions. One makes you a mystic martial artist, one makes you a ninja with shadow powers, and the third gives you ki blasts and elemental powers.Sonuvagrinch.... They've got some kind of mind reading device in my house...
I haven't even seen the 5th E monk.
The 5th E monk you haven't seen is obviously the ninja kind.
Obviously.
;-)