Chronicle sheet timing...

[N N 959]

So I just completed a module and I leveled from 2 to 3. A couple of questions:

1. Can I use the gold/prestige as a 2nd level character or do I have to use it as a 3rd?

2. At the end of the session, can I perform skill checks as a 2nd level or 3rd level?

[Chris Mortika]

Could you ask those questions in a different way? How do 2nd-level characters "use gold" differently than 3rd-level characters?

Maybe this addresses your concern: you don't actually buy anything between sessions; you buy them at the end of the first session, before you leave the table, or at the beginning of the second session, when you show the GM your purchases on your character's Inventory Tracking Sheet.

Until you receive a Chronicle sheet at the end of the first session, your character hasn't actually earned experience, and remains a 2nd-level PC.

[rknop]

I suspect the real issue is the Day Job check, and the Fame for purchases.

This is how I'd rule if I were a GM at a table:

* For your Day Job check, you must use your character as it was during the scenario you just played. You do your Day Job before you level up.

* I will let you do purchases assuming your Fame includes whatever Fame you got from this scenario.

The latter one may not be strictly by the rules. Since you don't get the experience, or the fame, before you get the chronicle sheet, but since the purchases are supposed to be accounted for on the chronicle sheet (now just as a number, no longer itemized, because of the ITS), it could be argued that you may not have the fame before your chronicle sheet is issued in order to purchase at a higher fame level. However, I think this is too picky, for two reasons.

First, my observation is that the way people do things, they are allowed to spend the gold they just got. They get the gold on that chronicle sheet, so the "you don't have it yet" argument should apply to the gold and the fame, but I've never seen a GM enforce this. (Indeed, in practice, almost every single GM I've seen hands out signed chronicle sheets without the gold accounting completed, even though the rules in the Guide to OP say you're not supposed to do this. Players then have the freedom to do their purchases and completed the "gold spent" and accounting boxes at their leisure thereafter. I would love it if the rules would be updated to reflect actual practice; I made an argument for this before Season 5, but alas it went nowhere.)

More importantly, it just bloody doesn't make any difference. You could do the purchases on your next chronicle sheet just before your next game. Either way, you'd have the same amount of gold and fame, and since it just doesn't make any difference, just do it.

In contrast, the Day Job does make a difference; if you add a skill point before rolling the Day Job, it's a different roll. So, that one we have to be more anal about; it's done with your character stats as they are before the chronicle sheet is issued.

[Chris Mortika]

rknop, we should be putting "between scenario" purchases on our next Chronicle sheets.

The larger issue being: once the GM handes out the Chronicle sheet, nothing gets added or subtracted.

[rknop]

Yeah... but, again, that's almost never what I see.

I have been anal about this, although I've been slipping recently. Early on, I'd fill out the first parts, give it to the players to do the accounting, and then have them hand it back to me for me to look over before I signed. I even did this with online games, although there what I'd do is send players incomplete sheets, ask them to tell me what to put in the rest (accounting, purchases, etc.), and then send them a second complete, signed sheet.

But, as a player, not once did I have a GM do this. GMs would fill out the grey (GM) sections, initial, and sign, and leave all of the accounting and purchases for me to write in.

As such, as GM, I've backed away from doing it the way we're supposed to (which only annoys players with the extra paperwork), and doing it the way all players experience from nearly all GMs.

Ideally, I'd either like to see GMs start to do things the way they're supposed to be done, or have the rules changed to reflect what absolutely everybody does. The latter would be a better option; doing it the way we're supposed to is really fiddily.

[GM Lamplighter]

The way it is supposed to be, is to address the huge number of Chronicle issues many GMs have been seeing. If you are playing with a small, regular group that all does it properly, it may seem overkill. With a large player base and lots of new folks, I may have a PC every session who hasn't done their Chronicle stuff properly. If all GMs follow the rules, that doesn't delay the start of my game. Yes, it's a hassle, but I'd rather see a *slight* hassle for the players (who have to do the work at some point anyway), than a hassle for the GM to have to check everyone's math before being able to play. (And yes, I find errors. I have had players not even know what level they were.)

[rknop]

I'd be fine if everybody does it the way it's supposed to be.

It's just that my experience is that nobody does it the way it's supposed to be. Not once, other than myself, have I seen a GM require that a chronicle sheet be entirely filled out before he signed it. I've played with a number of GMs online, and with five or six different GMs at PaizoCon.

Unless my experience is unusual-- and, based on what I've read, it's not-- the vast majority of PFS out there is not doing it the way it's supposed to be done. Again, I agree that the theory of how it's supposed to be done makes sense, but it conflicts with the reality of what most people are doing. If we really want people to do it the way it's supposed to be done, then campaign leadership needs to send a clear message to GMs to actually do that. Having the rules written in the Guide to OP isn't sending that message.

(The PFS player base, by and large, isn't Lawful...)

[rknop]

(Actually, thinking back, it might have happened once.... The GM who ran my table at the Special this last PaizoCon may well have had us fill the whole thing out before signing it.)

(And... that GM might have been GM Lamplighter. Do you have a rubber stamp of an L with a flame on the top of it that you put on chronicle sheets? If so, then it was you. I can't actually read the signature,and I don't remember the name of that GM....)

[nosig]

I was going to post a long involved note about this.

But it really isn't worth it.

When I'm at the table with other gamers - I'd really like to be playing a game. That is sort of why I come to the game... to play games.

Paperwork is best done on my time - not cutting into very limited game time.

I'll go away now - I've finished up my hours of prep time spent getting my paperwork in order for today's game, and will be heading out to play this afternoon. I had thought I would spend a few minutes on the boards soaking up some "game thoughts", but instead I seem to have wandered into a discussion on accounting.

edit: spelling and grammer

[Pink Dragon]

^^^^ this!

I started a thread here on this very issue back in April, 2014.

I have played PFS exclusively online, and doubt that I will play more than a handful of games in-person. If the chronicle sheet process as-written starts being enforced anally, I doubt whether I will continue to play PFS. It's too much hassle and I frankly don't care if other people try to cheat the system.

I think auditing would be a better mechanism for catching and correcting mistakes and teaching players how to correctly account for things on a chronicle, but that too is onerous, especially so for GMs.

PFS is a game milieu. If I stop enjoying it because the paperwork becomes to onerous I will simply stop playing in that milieu.

[N N 959]

First, I'm in a PbP situation here, if that helps.

Chris Mortika wrote:

Could you ask those questions in a different way? How do 2nd-level characters "use gold" differently than 3rd-level characters?

Maybe this addresses your concern: you don't actually buy anything between sessions; you buy them at the end of the first session, before you leave the table, or at the beginning of the second session, when you show the GM your purchases on your character's Inventory Tracking Sheet.

Until you receive a Chronicle sheet at the end of the first session, your character hasn't actually earned experience, and remains a 2nd-level PC.

My question is essentially what rknop is talking about, less the Day Job. My character wants to retrain into an archetype and needs the fame from the module to do it. The other question is crafting.

Rolling the DJ as the character who just played seems appropriate. Crafting is a little tricker. One of the hassles with crafting is that sometimes it's better to do the crafting at the end of the current scenario. The outgoing GM isn't trying to prep for the game, read people's sheets, and set up the game (if it's PbP). The outgoing GM has more time to review the crafting choices without any real time pressure. However, I'd much rather craft as a higher level character.

I think my Fame issue has been answered from the responses here: I get to retrain as if I'm 2nd level, but have access to the chronicle sheet.

As rknop points out, people routinely use resources from the chronicle they just earned to clear conditions at the end of the scenario.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

I'd rule that if you're going to use a part of the reward then you'd have to have the whole reward applied first. So if you're planning on spending the PP that you just got on the chronicle, then you'd also need to apply the XP you gained as well. If that puts you into the next level than that's the level you'd use. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to only use part of the reward before you use the rest.

[N N 959]

@eric

My understanding is that you level up, between scenarios.

It's also been my observation that 1st level characters are allowed to use all the loot from their 3rd chronicle before acquiring 2nd level.

The other problem with your approach is that if a character were to die in a scenario that would have leveled them, then you're telling them they they have to level up before they have access to the any of the gold...which would be impossible.

[GM Sior]

When the chronicle sheet is handed out, the gold, fame, prestige, and experience are all earned at the same time. If you need the prestige or gold from that chronicle sheet, then you are also going to be taking the experience at that time, meaning changing level if you cross that threshold. In this case, you would be retraining as a lvl 3 as opposed to a lvl 2.

Does that make any sorta sense?

Also, those who retrain a "lvl 1" character with 3 xp are actually retraining a lvl 2 character, just they can do it for free as they have yet to play that character above level 1.

[N N 959]

Perhaps PFS should FAQ this. The question we need to ask ourselves is what makes sense for the game?

But my issue involves another set of questions, and that is:

1. What is technically involved in character advancement? I ran into this problem when playing 3.5. AD&D you had to literally spend weeks or more of training. In 3.5? I've heard of GMs letting people level in dungeon as soon as they popped.

2. If leveling does require some theoretical training, then Is there any reason why someone can't retrain before they level?

[GM Sior]

Aye, perhaps it should. Hopefully we'll have an official ruling anon.

1. And in 4e, I believe you had to take an extended rest (or whatever they called 8hrs of sleep in that game) before the new level would be applied. *shrug*

2. Just comes down to the crunch of the numbers. As soon as you get that experience, you level. How it would work in a non-organized campaign setting could go either way, but in OP, things are a bit more abstract (like everyone gets to keep that single +5 dragon-bane keen greatsword you found... as long as you pay for it).

[N N 959]

Well, if the paradigm in PFS is that you are training off-camera, then getting xp wouldn't auto advance you.

For PFS, I think the bigger concerns are the logistics/mechanics at the table. For the sake of time, it makes more sense to keep everyone at their current level and all checks, rolls, etc, happen at that lower level. Expecting players to update their characters and make rolls at the next level is not going to be viable when a player may not even know what class they are going to take.

What is best for the game? What is the simplest fairest way to handle this?

[BigNorseWolf]

I don't get what you're trying to do or what the difference is between spending gold at second level or at third. The only difference would be the 1 rank or whatever you throw into your dayjob check (not that dayjob checks really matter for gold anyway)

If you're talking about how much gold you make from the scenario, its from what you played as.

[Dhenn]

BNW, it sounds like its PP costs of retraining that NN is concerned about.

Using the Archer archetype for fighter as an example, retraining at level 2 costs 5 PP, as only one class feature (Bravery) is altered, while it costs 10 at level 3 (as Armor Training 1) is altered. It sounds like the consensus is that once you get a chronicle that gives you 6 XP, you're level 3, and have to pay the higher cost.

NN, I'm not sure what concerns about crafting you have, though. If you mean the limited amount of Craft (Alchemy) available to Alchemists and the like, it's still pretty much the difference of a single skill point most of the time, much like the day job.

[Andreas Forster]

The way I would rule it is this:

-Day Job rolls are part of the game, before chronicles are handed out, so you use the skill modifiers you have before leveling up.

- You get gold for the tier you played at (or out-of-subtier gold if you played with a level that's not within tier). No questions about that part.

- You are free to spend any prestige or gold before chronicles are handed out. You'd do this at the level you played at, but don't have any rewards from the chronicle yet.

- You can spend gold and prestige after you receive your chronicle and apply it, meaning any level-dependant purchases would be made at your new level if the chronicle put you at a new level. Also, you'd use your new fame score to determine purchase limits.

- Alchemists and Investigators are able to craft alchemical items. Since this involves a roll, I would only allow this before chronicles are handed out. If the character needs the gold from the chronicle or wants to make use of an extra skill rank from leveling up, I would ask the player to craft at the beginning of the next game he plays with that character.

[Michael Brock]

Andreas Forster wrote:

The way I would rule it is this:

-Day Job rolls are part of the game, before chronicles are handed out, so you use the skill modifiers you have before leveling up.

- You get gold for the tier you played at (or out-of-subtier gold if you played with a level that's not within tier). No questions about that part.

- You are free to spend any prestige or gold before chronicles are handed out. You'd do this at the level you played at, but don't have any rewards from the chronicle yet.

- You can spend gold and prestige after you receive your chronicle and apply it, meaning any level-dependant purchases would be made at your new level if the chronicle put you at a new level. Also, you'd use your new fame score to determine purchase limits.

- Alchemists and Investigators are able to craft alchemical items. Since this involves a roll, I would only allow this before chronicles are handed out. If the character needs the gold from the chronicle or wants to make use of an extra skill rank from leveling up, I would ask the player to craft at the beginning of the next game he plays with that character.

^^This. Thanks for answering while I was asleep, Andreas.

[N N 959]

Michael Brock wrote:

Andreas Forster wrote:

The way I would rule it is this:

-Day Job rolls are part of the game, before chronicles are handed out, so you use the skill modifiers you have before leveling up.

- You get gold for the tier you played at (or out-of-subtier gold if you played with a level that's not within tier). No questions about that part.

- You are free to spend any prestige or gold before chronicles are handed out. You'd do this at the level you played at, but don't have any rewards from the chronicle yet.

- You can spend gold and prestige after you receive your chronicle and apply it, meaning any level-dependant purchases would be made at your new level if the chronicle put you at a new level. Also, you'd use your new fame score to determine purchase limits.

- Alchemists and Investigators are able to craft alchemical items. Since this involves a roll, I would only allow this before chronicles are handed out. If the character needs the gold from the chronicle or wants to make use of an extra skill rank from leveling up, I would ask the player to craft at the beginning of the next game he plays with that character.

^^This. Thanks for answering while I was asleep, Andreas.

A couple of follow up questions points:

1. So you can retrain at the end of a scenario, but before you use the gold / Prestige from the chronicle?

2. If someone dies in the last fight, and would have leveled, then they can't use the gold from that chronicle because they have to level and use/accept/apply all the rewards before they can use any of the rewards?

Alternatively, they must be raised at the higher level?

3. I checked the guide on Day Jobs, it says this,

PFS Guide p. 21 wrote:

In the Pathfinder Society campaign, you may make one Day Job check after the end of each adventure.

That would suggest I've already gotten the experience and collected my rewards.

It's nonsensical to say the Day Job happens at level 2 if at the end of the adventure I walk out as level 3. In addition, the loot/rewards are things that are technically earned along the way, so it makes little sense to say you have none of that when you do your Day Job "at the end of each adventure."

A bard goes into a scenario and finds enough gold to buy a new lute. He can't buy the lute with the gold he finds before doing his Day Job as a performer?

4. It's not going to be feasible to do level dependent rolls at the table if the character has to level their character to make the roll. What if I am a cleric and I want to Remove Curse on another player and I just gained a level. Are we going to allow players to level their cleric for the roll?

Wouldn't it be simpler to say that everything that happens in an adventure, happens at that level you started at, regardless of what rewards you use? This includes retraining and everything else.