By wave of bloodcove module has a serious flaw.


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Scarab Sages

I just played in this today and . . .

Spoiler:
the main mission objective was impossible for us to complete as it requires you have a wayfinder in the group. This is quite literally the ONLY way to complete the main objective and even though our party had several members with more than enough money to buy one outright no one had the slightest interest in doing so. The adventure requires you to find a dead drop by being lead there via a wayfinder with no other way to find it and nowhere in the city itself after the adventure starts to buy one. So unless someone has been lucky enough to be awarded one or for some reason actually chose to spend 500gp on a way to find north and cast light (mages, beings with lowlight etc not having much interest in those features) and no module I've played so far really requiring much in direction sense they just don't seem worth it to me.

Regardless of that personal opinion having the main goal of a module relying on someone having a single SPECIFIC item and no way to aquire that item after it becomes noted you need it with no alternative means to complete the goal seems like poor planning for a module. Especially for an item that is not a common adventuring tool.

Is there anyway I can make this problem apparent to Paizo themselves? e.g. a place on these forums for module feedback from players like the GM section?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Id say either under the products page or the GM Discussion.

Something to keep in mind is a Wayfinder is only 250 for Pathfinders. I dont have the scenario, so not sure. Other than that, Id say warn/hint to the players before hand, but if no one is willing to buy one, well, just like any other case where if you do not have the right tool for the job, either find a different way or it might be a failed scenario.

Sovereign Court 2/5

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I'm surprised that nobody had a wayfinder. Nobody in your group uses ioun stone resonance bonuses?

Scarab Sages

@Devil's Advocate
Price wasn't the issue it was the fact no one felt motivated to spend 250GP that can go on other things for a device that really offers little benefit most of the time. The problem was once you start the module there is nowhere to buy one and in our case the GM only got the module the day before so they only had time to read the summary and didn't realize it was a have wayfinder or fail the scenario. We all found out when we went to complete the main mission and realized there was aboslutely nothing we could do without one. We went over our spells (magus, witch and wizard) nothing helped. Closest was my locate object but the GM felt it wouldn't work as we didn't actually know what was in the deaddrop.

The flaw in my opinion is that there's isn't a great big warning to the GM at the start "Make sure a player has this item or they can't complete their mission" instead it isn't till your nearly at the end of the module that you get told the wayfinder is the only way to progress and no other spell/ability/method exists to find your main goal.

@Acedio
Nope, even outside our "group" i.e. everyone who plays at that particular lodge only 2 actually had wayfinders on any of their charactesr. One wasn't there that day and the other was the guy running it and his was on a character too high level even if he hadn't been running it. For 3rd/4th level characters it really isn't a major purchase choice especially for a wizard. I don't even know what most of the ioun stones do in one only that they do something.

Like I said if we'd known going in that a wayfinder was this vital at least 2 of our 3 person group could have bought one but we didn't so we didn't.

EDIT
Even allowing for the fact wayfinders and ioun stone resonences may be more common than they are in our groups particularly at low levels it seems a bad idea for a module to require one specific item for the main mission to be completed with no alternatives if that item isn't given to the players at the start but that could just be me.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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This did cross my mind during the scenario's development, and I went back and forth on it several times before leaving it as it was. On one hand, it's atypical to present a key part of an adventure that requires an item not found in the adventure; however, my reasoning came down to the following:

Spoiler:

  • The wayfinder is a badge of office for a Pathfinder, and possession of one is a defining feature of a Society member.
  • The only sure way for the agent to keep her dead drop's location safe from non-Pathfinders is to build the wayfinder into the treasure hunt as a key tool. Granted, Na'alu can still track it down given enough time, but it gives the PCs a considerable edge in who finds things first.

    That explains things in-game, but it doesn't yet explain the decision to rely on this magic item out-of-game.

  • The wayfinder is presented in full in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, making it available to everyone without any out-of-game resource purchase as well as subsidized at half cost.
  • I would not leave this mechanic in a lower-level adventure. Assuming Subtier 1-2 PCs have a wayfinder is unreasonable, but by 3rd-level most PCs have the budget to pick up such an item; from there, usually one person has purchased it either for flavor, setting, or mechanical reasons. One adventure commonly played by beginning PCs even gives out wayfinders for free (or nearly free).
  • Even if nobody in the group has a wayfinder, it is possible to acquire one anywhere in the world at the cost of 2 Prestige Points (+5 if you're outside a settlement of 5,000+ people). Remember that Prestige Points can allow one to purchase items worth up to 750 gp.
  • In my experience (based on about 250-300 games of organized play), it is very rare to see a level 3+ table without at least one wayfinder, and conversations with other GMs suggest fairly similar experiences. I recognize that's a limited (albeit still substantial) sample size with anecdotal evidence, but I found the above points did a lot to support what seemed more like a gut feeling.
  • I'm sorry that this didn't quite work out for you, and this is feedback I'm happy to take into consideration when developing other scenarios. I imagine this would be less of an issue were the scenario Tier 5-9, by which point characters have had even more of an opportunity to pick up this iconic (but still modestly expensive) piece of gear.

    Out of curiosity, a few questions for you:

    1) Do you play in a group with fairly consistent membership (drawn from the same 4-9 people, say) or in a public setting with exposure to lots of different players?

    2) Is it reasonable to assume that other players at the table felt the same way? Did the group talk things over after the fact? What were the group's thoughts?

    Scarab Sages

    Hmmmm still seems a very risky idea to have a key part of a module rely on an item someone has to actively purchase (subsidized or not). There's a lot of room there for things to go wrong as they did for us. I would have thought in a care where its have X or fail then X should either be aquireable after that point or specifically handed to the party beforehand. For example having one given to the group as the original message only said "A wayfinder shall show the way" or or the like. However if they could be purchased in bloodcover for 2PP that's expensive but covers my concern as its a means to get it after you find out you need one. Didn't know that was an option to be honest and I don't think anyone else did either as it never came up.

    May just be where we're playing but here they aren't a common purchase price until much higher level either because you have a range of ioun stones to play with or you can get one of the better models. Both of the 2 who have one got theirs as rewards from cons and are much better than the basic version available for 250GP which for a wizard is still a fairly major investment of cash for an item that doesn't do much.

    As for your questions . . .

    1) Public setting so the membership changes a lot out of the last 3 times I've been able to attend the people showing up have varied from 3 (it was cancelled that day as a 2 person group wouldn't work) to times like today where there's 9 with 2 of them GMing. The actual people who show up also vary, in todays group there were 4 people with 1st level characters, 1 with 3rd and 2 with 4th.

    2) Its definately a group opinion we all talked about this after the adventure essentially died at that point. I know the other player with a 4th level character was planning to text the VL for our area over this issue although he may have chosen not to as the GMing was planning to raise it with them as well. No one there felt that wayfinders were really high on the purchase list and that having a module with only one way to progress the main mission was not a good idea. Although as I said I don't think anyone realized we could spend PP to purchase one out of the blue in a town with no pathfinder connections.

    Personally I'm only hanging onto the sheet for the 1XP as we didn't get anything else,

    Spoiler:
    we sabotaged the expidition and arranged for pathfinder movements but didn't follow up on the people's opinion of the consortium so we missed out on the prestige for the secondary obectives, we couldn't progress the primary without the wayfinder and didn't get the prestige for that, the guy who snuck into their warehouse didn't come and get help for the chest but rather set it on fire so we missed out on that treasure in that, we let the pirate go after beating them so we missed out on her treasure, we never fought the final boss so we missed out on his treasure. It really was a wasted day for me particularly since I was only playing that character to balance numbers as with new PFS legal options I can finally play the one I wanted from the beginning.

    Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

    Regarding your spoiler:
    I strongly suspect that you should have received the gp reward for the smuggling encounter with the caravan ambush, as that reward relies only on you having successfully made a deal with one side or the other. Doing so for House Cartahagn really only involves agreeing to the task and defeating Ungala and her allies in one way or another (killing, chasing off, bribing away, or any other tactic). Not retrieving her equipment might mean several fewer items on the Chronicle sheet, but the encounter was a success and should have paid out gold.

    I also suspect you succeeded at the sabotage encounter, as the gold rewards for that rely only on sabotaging the expedition in two or more ways (and setting fire to everything counts rathr nicely). Burning the treasure just means fewer items available on the Chronicle sheet, but you should still receive the gold.

    It's a small consolation compared to your other concerns, I realize, but that should give you something to walk away with.

    5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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    Shouldn't bloodcove have a thriving business of those looted off of pathfinders? At a discount if you clean the blood off of it yourself...

    5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

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    Senko wrote:
    Hmmmm still seems a very risky idea to have a key part of a module rely on an item someone has to actively purchase (subsidized or not).

    Among other things, I look at this scenario as maybe a gentle hint from the Development Team that wayfinders are Useful Things. I'd certainly rather fail a 3-7 scenario due to lack of equipment than fail a 7-11 for the same reason. Perhaps instead of wanting a hint from the GM/scenario to get a wayfinder, maybe this entire scenario is the hint to get a wayfinder before the season progresses much further? Just a thought....

    Senko wrote:
    There's a lot of room there for things to go wrong as they did for us. I would have thought in a care where its have X or fail then X should either be aquireable after that point or specifically handed to the party beforehand.

    This concern comes up every now and then, and bears reminding. The PCs aren't expected to succeed all the time. They definitely aren't expected to earn both prestige points & max gold every time. Sometimes PCs fail. They fail due to not having the right tools for the job. They fail due to making poor tactical choices. They fail due to not listening to the mission briefing and end up killing the NPC they were supposed to keep alive. Sometimes they fail when they made good choices but the dice just weren't with them. (I'll admit, I feel bad as a GM when that happens.) PCs fail. The failures make for learning experiences both IC and OOC. Failure is ok. Maybe not always fun (though some of the best 'war stories' tend to come from failures), but still okay.

    Senko wrote:

    ...which for a wizard is still a fairly major investment of cash for an item that doesn't do much.

    Different play styles, I suppose. I mostly play casters, and always get a wayfinder ASAP. Even if my PC has LL or DV, light is often still needed. Sure, most casters have it as a 0-level spell, but 0-level spells are an under-utilized goldmine! Aside from the 1d3 damage-doers, the utility spells are crucial! Not to mention Guidance, Resistance, Stabilize... and so on. 250 GP means my caster can free up a 0-level spell for something that can save the party? Sign me up!

    Not to mention the Ioun Stone slot. Sure, a lot of them are expensive. But not all. And there are some fabulous options on cracked/flawed Ioun Stones (the cheapest of which are around 1,000 GP- so are available pretty quickly) with useful resonance.

    I must admit, the +2 to Survival checks to avoid getting lost is kinda 'meh', but I've never heard of someone getting a wayfinder just for the +2.

    But ultimately, the single most important reason to get a wayfinder? It's your badge of office! It's what tells the world "I'm a Pathfinder!" (Not that that's always a good thing....)

    5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Shouldn't bloodcove have a thriving business of those looted off of pathfinders? At a discount if you clean the blood off of it yourself...

    Of course, by that logic, maybe Bloodcove has a thriving business of killing people who ask for wayfinders... ;-)

    "Oh, yes, traveller! Of course I have wayfinders for sale! In fact, this week we are having a special sale! Every wayfinder comes with a free dagger to the lung!"

    And on that note, I'll stop being silly and go to bed.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Amanda Plageman wrote:
    And there are some fabulous options on cracked/flawed Ioun Stones (the cheapest of which are around 1,000 GP- so are available pretty quickly) with useful resonance.

    No there aren't. Cracked and flawed Ioun Stones never have resonance effects, as per the Additional Resources page.

    5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

    Jeff Merola wrote:
    No there aren't. Cracked and flawed Ioun Stones never have resonance effects, as per the Additional Resources page.

    I mis-communicated. "There are good Ioun Stones for cheap" should not have gotten smushed together with "resonance from wayfinders makes them really useful". I blame the late hour for not being more clear. :-)

    Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

    Amanda Plageman wrote:
    And there are some fabulous options on cracked/flawed Ioun Stones (the cheapest of which are around 1,000 GP- so are available pretty quickly) with useful resonance.

    I may be misreading this, but just in case I am not...

    cracked/flawed Ioun Stones do not have resonance.

    Additional Resources - Seekers of Secrets wrote:
    Additionally, only normal ioun stones have resonance—inferior ioun stones never do.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

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    Big bald guy sucking on lollipop says:
    "Wayfinder. Never leave home without it."

    5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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    Spoiler from last session

    Spoiler:
    Pathfinder already have a bad reputation in this town. You know what to do...Everyone put on your Aspis Badges

    A player showed up late so his character joined in a bit late

    "If you're really a pathfinder... then where's your Aspis badge?"

    (we were finally satisfied by his complaint that Drendle Drang woke him up at 5:am to be there)

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

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    As a GM, if this came up at my table I would have tried to come up with a creative way for the players to possibly acquire a wayfinder.* Surely there are some around Bloodcove, perhaps in a pawn shop or used as an ash tray in some Aspis hideout. So the nature of the item (that fact that its a Pathfinder specific trinket in a non-Pathfinder friendly town) wouldn't really be an issue.

    The only issue at that point is forcing someone to spend 500g to purchase the item. As a side note, I would not give the PCs a discount, as that only applies to Pathfinders and they are trying to keep a low profile in this scenario, posing as bounty hunters or some other non-affiliated group.

    So the real question at that point is: "Is it OK for scenarios to have sections that require the PCs to spend wealth in order to progress?"

    And that's a trickier question.

    In previous scenarios such costs are unavoidable. There's a certain 7-11 that requires the PCs to get a teleport cast in order to begin playing it, or spend 4 PP to get it cast for them. There is another that requires the PCs to have 1000g in loose change in order to access a gambling house. Paying "in game fees" is a staple element in PFS as it is in all other RPGs. So it shouldn't be a surprise when from time to time situations arise where you have to dip into your spare funds.

    I think all characters should have a small slush fund, even in the lower levels, to account for accidentals. Just like you try to keep some money in savings in real life, your characters should try to keep some gold on hand in case something comes up.

    Nothing sucks more than backing your car into a tree when you've got less than $500 bucks in the bank. Or having to purchase a wayfinder when you spent your last 3000 gold on that adamantine katana you thought you needed to participate in Season 6.

    *I only played this scenario and haven't read it yet, so unless something in-scenario specifically calls out Wayfinders being un-purchaseable, I feel that a GM could improv a way for the PCs to purchase one in Bloodcove.

    5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

    The gambling fees one doesn't cost any money, and its far from the ONLY way in.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

    Thanks for the correction, it's been a while since I've been in the Spider's Lair.

    I imagine that you will recall all the ferry fees, scenario mission bribes, alchemical goods, and spellcasting services that you've had to pay over your long career in PFS though, BNW.

    Fees are fees, and this is just another challenge that requires another macguffin to succeed--like swarms and alchemist fire.

    Sovereign Court

    When we played this we had 2 people in the group with Wayfinders (I was one). After the briefing I decided to leave mine at home to avoid any entanglements with Aspis guys we might meet as we were supposed to be laying low. Fortunately the other player took his and just hid it. I suppose that is a case for getting a Pathfinder Pouch to hide such items in case you do actually need it later.

    Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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    At this point this should be in the GM forum. This thread is rife with spoilers.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5

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    I flagged it to be moved yesterday. :P

    But I have to agree. I'm not sure I've ever seen a part where not a single character (much less most of them) had a Wayfinder. It is a bit pricey for what little it does, but it's also sort of a badge of office, and I can't say how many times I've pulled my cloak aside to reveal my Wayfinder for just a second to indicate discretely what I just said has a hidden meaning or the like.

    As for how mandatory it is, not sure. Have not played/read the scenario, but I can say that needing to buy things just to complete a scenario isn't uncommon. I literally just spent almost 2,000 gp yesterday in Glories of the Past 2 for that same reason, and a good portion of that was wasted by the end. That's more on the top end of what I can think of required spending, but there are plenty out there where entrance fee's are needed, specific gear/bribes/items are called for, etc. . .

    And while it's probably not fun for the OP, sometimes that's just the way things go. It kind of sounds like between running cold and the party refusing to make a suggested purchase (without metagaming knowing what it meant), they came to an impasse they couldn't cross. Not to be mean, but sometimes this happens. Luckily, in my experience it's not common, and I can say I have only failed one scenario. I kind of felt like there was nothing we could do, and it wasn't really due to poor player/character choices, we just couldn't get past a certain point. So I get it, but still, sometimes failure (or worse) happens.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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    At my table, most people had wayfinders. But during the briefing, upon finding out it was a covert mission to bloodcove, most of us decided to leave them at home, so we couldn't be as easily recognized.

    Luckily someone had one stashed in a haversack when we needed it.

    Dark Archive 4/5

    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I played this Friday and was the only one at my table with a wayfinder. It's been essential in at least one other scenario that I know of, I get one on all my characters either after they go through confirmation or get to about 3rd level. Besides, where else am I going to slot my clear spindle ioun stone?

    Scarab Sages

    "Devil's Advocate" wrote:

    I flagged it to be moved yesterday. :P

    But I have to agree. I'm not sure I've ever seen a part where not a single character (much less most of them) had a Wayfinder. It is a bit pricey for what little it does, but it's also sort of a badge of office, and I can't say how many times I've pulled my cloak aside to reveal my Wayfinder for just a second to indicate discretely what I just said has a hidden meaning or the like.

    As for how mandatory it is, not sure. Have not played/read the scenario, but I can say that needing to buy things just to complete a scenario isn't uncommon. I literally just spent almost 2,000 gp yesterday in Glories of the Past 2 for that same reason, and a good portion of that was wasted by the end. That's more on the top end of what I can think of required spending, butter there are plenty out there where entrance fee's are needed, specific gear/bribes/items are called for, etc. . .

    And while it's probably not fun for the OP, sometimes that's just the way things go. It kind of sounds like between running cold and the party refusing to make a suggested purchase (without metagaming knowing what it meant), they came to an impasse they couldn't cross. Not to be mean, but sometimes this happens. Luckily, in my experience it's not common, and I can say I have only failed one scenario. I kind of felt like there was nothing we could do, and it wasn't really due to poor player/character choices, we just couldn't get past a certain point. So I get it, but still, sometimes failure (or worse) happens.

    Not so much refusing as just not feeling any need to buy them this early in the adventuring career when they are better options. Like I said 2 of us had the money to buy even the full priced version if we'd had a reason ingame or out to suspect it may be necessary. On the other hand several groups from the look of it deliberately left most of theirs behind because of the undercover nature of this mission.

    EDIT
    Also yes now I'll probably buy one for thus character and eventually for the one I'd rather play. However that's a purchase more incase they get needed again than because I feel either would want to buy one which has its own problems.

    5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

    Walter Sheppard wrote:

    Thanks for the correction, it's been a while since I've been in the Spider's Lair.

    I imagine that you will recall all the ferry fees, scenario mission bribes, alchemical goods, and spellcasting services that you've had to pay over your long career in PFS though, BNW.

    50 gp for dogsitting services, 100 gp craft services fee for a Roc and a Bullette, 100 gp of honey for employee recognition, 5 gp for the ferry, 100 gp for a hostage payout, 100 gp for extra chocholate, 200 gp for wheels of justice grease...

    But two things stand out about some very humerous expense items. 1) is that they were generic, not specific and 2) They were optional,there were multiple ways of achieving the goal or the money just provided a bonus.

    Quote:
    Fees are fees, and this is just another challenge that requires another macguffin to succeed--like swarms and alchemist fire.

    Right, but this is more like saying that the swarm is immune to burning hands, and the alkalai flasks,and torches, and set fires, and everything BUT alchemists fire. And you can't go around the swarm.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5

    It also isn't the first time a wayfinder has been absoultely neccessary to complete the scenario. Of course the scenario I'm thinking of an NPC loans you one if no one in the group has one...

    4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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    Guess the biggest problem I see with this is a party of all pre-generated characters can't do it. They have neither the wayfinder nor the means to purchase one.

    The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    BretI, they would be able to afford a wayfinder after an encounter or two, yes?

    Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

    BretI wrote:
    Guess the biggest problem I see with this is a party of all pre-generated characters can't do it. They have neither the wayfinder nor the means to purchase one.

    Do these happen at higher than 1st level? I can count on one hand the number of times I've sat a non-1st level pre-gen player, and I've been coordinating for 6 years.

    Dark Archive 4/5

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    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I see them often at cons. Never played one myself other than as GM, but had players use them quite a few times, though generally not the full table.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    I find it really odd that a group of role players are so concerned over cash that they refuse to have their character wear their affiliation badge over 250gp.

    Just really odd.

    Scarab Sages

    Andrew Christian wrote:

    I find it really odd that a group of role players are so concerned over cash that they refuse to have their character wear their affiliation badge over 250gp.

    Just really odd.

    Again not refusing we have our affiliation badges we just had other more useful purchases at these lower levels than the basic wayfinder. If it was one of the higher quality ones (multiple slots, other abilities) or i actually had ioun stones I'd have got one. So far however healing potions, scrolls, saving up to improve my Ac over 12 take priority than an alternative way to produce light or special effects that require additional purchases.

    Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

    As people talk about leaving them behind after the briefing, I'm surprised that didn't actually happen at my table. No one left theirs behind. And I was pretty thorough in my fear-mongering of Bloodcove and its ways. I had just run Parts 1 and 2 of Before the Dawn the day before, and had a couple repeat players at the table for this adventure, so was very excited about busting out already known NPCs.

    Anyhoo, I can see a group all leaving them behind if they don't have a Pathfinder Pouch (which I have personally only ever seen on one PC, ever).

    Still, I stand by the idea that they can be found and bought in Bloodcove. Spending 250gp in an effort to gain a success condition isn't unreasonable (I say 250gp because you have to buy it for 500gp but can sell it back at the end of the scenario for 250gp if you REALLY don't want it).

    Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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    I'm sorry to say, and I'm sure some will take offense, but if you have reached 3rd level or higher and still have not obtained a wayfinder, I don't have a lot of sympathy for failing this mission. The cost is minimal (certainly less than "wasted" expendable resources I've seen), but more importantly, it is a BADGE OF OFFICE, something that most members are expected to possess. Heck we offer a re-playable scenario such that you can get one for free or for minimum expense (250gp or 1 PA).

    Sure, we can argue that the role-playing aspect of PFS is minimal compared to non-organized play, but to completely ignore it and turn the game into nothing more than a scale where every decision is an effort to weigh tangible benefits (power level) vs. cost defeats an integral part of the game. I just cannot fathom entire groups of characters that can be active members of the society, who have sworn allegiance to the tenets, "Explore, Report, Cooperate," and at the same time say they have absolutely no reason to own a wayfinder. Sorry if that sounds like an accusation of "BadWrongFun," guess I'm just a grognard.

    Consider it a one-time occurrence of union dues :-D

    5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

    Chris Mortika wrote:
    BretI, they would be able to afford a wayfinder after an encounter or two, yes?

    I'm embarrassed to say the idea of getting partway through something, then going back to town (or wherever) to get supplies, then returning for the rest of the 'task' never even occurred to me, as a player or GM. Of course, there are times when leaving & returning isn't a viable option, but a lot of times it is, now that you mention it.

    Thanks for taking me out of my comfy box, Chris! :-)

    Shadow Lodge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Asheville aka mogmismo

    Surely the is a way finder somewhere in bloodcove.... Like as captured evidence in the aspis headquarters.... Surely not that hard to acquire...

    My party also all decided, on their own in the briefing, to leave their wayfinders except one person who went the extra distance to hide it well.

    Sovereign Court 5/5

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Drogon wrote:
    Anyhoo, I can see a group all leaving them behind if they don't have a Pathfinder Pouch (which I have personally only ever seen on one PC, ever).

    I am systematically buying pathfinder pouches on all my characters. My goal is to start this as a trend. It's a really cool item.

    4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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    Drogon wrote:
    BretI wrote:
    Guess the biggest problem I see with this is a party of all pre-generated characters can't do it. They have neither the wayfinder nor the means to purchase one.
    Do these happen at higher than 1st level? I can count on one hand the number of times I've sat a non-1st level pre-gen player, and I've been coordinating for 6 years.

    Conventions, as others have said.

    The pre-generated characters set expectations. When not one of them has a wayfinder yet all of them are Pathfinders, it doesn't send the message that these are important. I see plenty of Rings of Protection, Cloaks of Resistance, and Amulets of Natural Armor on the various pre-gens but no wayfinders.

    Shadow Lodge 5/5

    James McTeague wrote:
    Drogon wrote:
    Anyhoo, I can see a group all leaving them behind if they don't have a Pathfinder Pouch (which I have personally only ever seen on one PC, ever).
    I am systematically buying pathfinder pouches on all my characters. My goal is to start this as a trend. It's a really cool item.

    I believe I have three characters with them. They're really handy when you need them.

    Sovereign Court 5/5

    Drogon wrote:

    As people talk about leaving them behind after the briefing, I'm surprised that didn't actually happen at my table. No one left theirs behind. And I was pretty thorough in my fear-mongering of Bloodcove and its ways. I had just run Parts 1 and 2 of Before the Dawn the day before, and had a couple repeat players at the table for this adventure, so was very excited about busting out already known NPCs.

    Perhaps, you are not as scary as you think, my dear fellow!

    Although I must admit that hydra showing up at the bridge was a bit daunting.

    5/5 Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

    BretI wrote:
    The pre-generated characters set expectations. When not one of them has a wayfinder yet all of them are Pathfinders, it doesn't send the message that these are important. I see plenty of Rings of Protection, Cloaks of Resistance, and Amulets of Natural Armor on the various pre-gens but no wayfinders.

    That.... is a really good point. I realize that re-designing the pregens simply to include wayfinders would be really low priority, but if/when we get pregens for the Magus and Advanced Player's Guide classes, maybe at least those pregens could have wayfinders? Please?

    And if, at some point the the future, the current pregens are redone, maybe they could get wayfinders? At least for the level 4 and 7. The level 1 pregens really shouldn't have them.


    Thanks for pointing this out, I know that we have to run scenarios as written but HYPOTHETICALLY if I was running this this weekend I would HYPOTHETICALLY add the following exchange to the briefing;

    "One more thing, you will of course be going into the heart of Aspis territory, do any of you carry Wayfinders?"

    No- "Very good, much less chance of discovery, though at the same time if you do meet our agent having a wayfinder in your group would help identify you, hmm, something to think on I suppose"

    Yes- "Well I recommend you keep them well hidden, though useful they will bring danger down upon you if sighted"

    ----PCs take this to mean don't bring it- "Very good, much less chance of discovery, though at the same time if you do meet our agent having even a single wayfinder in your group would help identify you, hmm, something to think on I suppose"

    5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

    Bob Jonquet wrote:
    I'm sorry to say, and I'm sure some will take offense, but if you have reached 3rd level or higher and still have not obtained a wayfinder, I don't have a lot of sympathy for failing this mission.

    The list of items you "need" to have on hand to deal with the trials and tribulations of adventuring- swarms, darkness, swimming, swarms, falling, swarms, routinely adds up to more than a characters wealth by level, much less what someone has over after covering the basics like a magic weapon and magic armor.

    Quote:
    The cost is minimal (certainly less than "wasted" expendable resources I've seen), but more importantly, it is a BADGE OF OFFICE, something that most members are expected to possess. Heck we offer a re-playable scenario such that you can get one for free or for minimum expense (250gp or 1 PA).

    Only for the first time you play it.

    Quote:
    Sure, we can argue that the role-playing aspect of PFS is minimal compared to non-organized play, but to completely ignore it and turn the game into nothing more than a scale where every decision is an effort to weigh tangible benefits (power level) vs. cost defeats an integral part of the game.

    For some people being a part of the in game pathfinders is just something you do to be a part of organized play. For some characters being a pathfinder is either something they do for a pay check or even are reluctantly roped into.

    For some others given the number of times flashing a wayfinder has gotten you the torch and pitchfork treatment some people don't like spending gold on something they're going to have to leave at home, store in a pathfinder pouch, or keep tucked away ini the OTHER pathfinder pouch to avoid taking penalties to skill rolls all night.

    And round about character 10 I forget who bought one of these things already and who hasn't.

    Grand Lodge 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Forgive my asking, but how does the simple possession of a 500-gp object help identify someone as a member of the organization? I've recovered a bucketload of Aspis coins over my brief career, and that doesn't mean I've switched allegiances.

    And the Aspis have "dropped" wayfinders at sites of violence, or on corpses, in order to incriminate us so often you'd think the ruse would have been used up.

    Possession of one of the vanity wayfinders, imprinted with the glyph of the open road, would be reasonable evidence. But just a plain wayfinder? It would seem like identifying someone as being a priest of Gorum by merit of his weapon.

    Dark Archive

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Your wayfinder should have your name enscribed on it. When I find npc wayfinders generally they have a name on them.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Senko wrote:
    Andrew Christian wrote:

    I find it really odd that a group of role players are so concerned over cash that they refuse to have their character wear their affiliation badge over 250gp.

    Just really odd.

    Again not refusing we have our affiliation badges we just had other more useful purchases at these lower levels than the basic wayfinder. If it was one of the higher quality ones (multiple slots, other abilities) or i actually had ioun stones I'd have got one. So far however healing potions, scrolls, saving up to improve my Ac over 12 take priority than an alternative way to produce light or special effects that require additional purchases.

    Your characters actually don't have their affiliation badges if they don't have a way finder.

    Scarab Sages

    Andrew Christian wrote:
    Senko wrote:
    Andrew Christian wrote:

    I find it really odd that a group of role players are so concerned over cash that they refuse to have their character wear their affiliation badge over 250gp.

    Just really odd.

    Again not refusing we have our affiliation badges we just had other more useful purchases at these lower levels than the basic wayfinder. If it was one of the higher quality ones (multiple slots, other abilities) or i actually had ioun stones I'd have got one. So far however healing potions, scrolls, saving up to improve my Ac over 12 take priority than an alternative way to produce light or special effects that require additional purchases.
    Your characters actually don't have their affiliation badges if they don't have a way finder.

    Really? I wasn't the one who pulled out a badge and was actually looking for information on them with no luck so if you could point me to the rules on them I'd appreciate it.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Senko wrote:
    Andrew Christian wrote:
    Senko wrote:
    Andrew Christian wrote:

    I find it really odd that a group of role players are so concerned over cash that they refuse to have their character wear their affiliation badge over 250gp.

    Just really odd.

    Again not refusing we have our affiliation badges we just had other more useful purchases at these lower levels than the basic wayfinder. If it was one of the higher quality ones (multiple slots, other abilities) or i actually had ioun stones I'd have got one. So far however healing potions, scrolls, saving up to improve my Ac over 12 take priority than an alternative way to produce light or special effects that require additional purchases.
    Your characters actually don't have their affiliation badges if they don't have a way finder.
    Really? I wasn't the one who pulled out a badge and was actually looking for information on them with no luck so if you could point me to the rules on them I'd appreciate it.

    The writeup for the wayfinder is in the Guide to Organized Play.

    Its common knowledge that wayfinders are a Pathfinder's affiliation badge. There doesn't have to be a written rule for this as its largely fluff.

    By 3rd level, if you cannot or won't afford a wayfinder for 250gp, then that really is the fault of the player, not the scenario for requiring a wayfinder.

    Scarab Sages

    Andrew Christian wrote:
    Senko wrote:
    Andrew Christian wrote:
    Senko wrote:
    Andrew Christian wrote:

    I find it really odd that a group of role players are so concerned over cash that they refuse to have their character wear their affiliation badge over 250gp.

    Just really odd.

    Again not refusing we have our affiliation badges we just had other more useful purchases at these lower levels than the basic wayfinder. If it was one of the higher quality ones (multiple slots, other abilities) or i actually had ioun stones I'd have got one. So far however healing potions, scrolls, saving up to improve my Ac over 12 take priority than an alternative way to produce light or special effects that require additional purchases.
    Your characters actually don't have their affiliation badges if they don't have a way finder.
    Really? I wasn't the one who pulled out a badge and was actually looking for information on them with no luck so if you could point me to the rules on them I'd appreciate it.

    The writeup for the wayfinder is in the Guide to Organized Play.

    Its common knowledge that wayfinders are a Pathfinder's affiliation badge. There doesn't have to be a written rule for this as its largely fluff.

    By 3rd level, if you cannot or won't afford a wayfinder for 250gp, then that really is the fault of the player, not the scenario for requiring a wayfinder.

    I disagree none of the iconics have wayfinders from what I've seen, it doesn't offer anything of real value to a mage, There are far more USEFUL items I want to buy (scrolls, wands, bracers of armour, rings of protection) that I'm saving up for even if buying a Wayfinder had been on my list it would still have been a long, long way off I.e. When I started being able to afford ioun stones or could get one with unique attributes. Prior to this point I had NO INDICATION a Wayfinder was more than an expensive item popular with pathfinders. In fact I recall the entry said most not all most pathfinders have them (I'll check this after I post). I have never actually played that scenario which gives you them however and as I said I could afford one however I was not aware of the can buy any item anywhere for 2pp rule (still learning them as I can't play often) and didn't think I could just walk into a bloodcove shop when trying to be undercover and ask for an item of their mortal enemies.

    5/5

    umm... aren't the iconic written for module play, then adapted to PFS? I don't think the iconics are actually members of the pathfinder society

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