Can you take Free / Swift Actions when Nauseated?


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Ian Bell wrote:
You can also eventually use a mercy to remove the Stunned or Paralyzed conditions, which also can't be done to yourself. It's still useful for fixing someone else's condition, this doesn't break it.

Sure, they work on other people but it takes a standard action to do so. You cant take a standard action while nauseated to cure someone else.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

So? You can't take a standard action while stunned or paralyzed either.


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Paladin's have good fort and will saves with a big saving boost for a reason. They are supposed to save against the effects and use mercies on others to free them.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
N N 959 wrote:

How could you take a swift action, but not a free action while Staggered? Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

Doesn't exactly make much sense to be able to move 30 feet but not drop to the ground either. But there we are.
You can Crawl as a Move Action so you can still go prone.

How did you go prone in order to crawl? You can't crawl standing up.


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There is no problem with the paladin LOH ability.

When he isn't nauseated (or paralyzed or stunned) he can use LOH. He can use it on himself as a Swift action or on others as a Standard action. If he also has the ability to remove Nauseated, Paralyzed, or Stunned conditions, then he can remove those conditions on any targets suffering from them whenever he is able to use LOH.

He's obviously not able to use LOH when he's suffering from those conditions so yeah, he can't remove them from himself, but he certainly can remove them from anyone else he's able to affect with LOH.

A generous GM who feels that paladins might not be awesome enough might house rule that when he gains the ability to remove these conditions he ALSO gains the ability to use LOH on himself as a swift action when suffering from the condition he is removing - a specific house rule to override the general rule that says he cannot.


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CWheezy wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
N N 959 wrote:

How could you take a swift action, but not a free action while Staggered? Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

Doesn't exactly make much sense to be able to move 30 feet but not drop to the ground either. But there we are.
You can Crawl as a Move Action so you can still go prone.
How did you go prone in order to crawl? You can't crawl standing up.

Really, now? Do you see anywhere in the Crawl entry stating that you must possess the Prone condition in order to perform the Crawl action?

Crawling wrote:
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.

No? It just says you're considered Prone, and you must spend a Move Action to stand up? So then why are you practically houseruling that such a condition is required to perform the action, when by the rules, it's not required?


CWheezy wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
N N 959 wrote:

How could you take a swift action, but not a free action while Staggered? Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

Doesn't exactly make much sense to be able to move 30 feet but not drop to the ground either. But there we are.
You can Crawl as a Move Action so you can still go prone.
How did you go prone in order to crawl? You can't crawl standing up.

Crawling makes you prone.

Does everyone in your games only get prone by dropping to the ground? Strange.


Brain in a Jar wrote:


Crawling makes you prone.

Does everyone in your games only get prone by dropping to the ground? Strange.

Well, you know how these rule debates go. If you people argue RAW with respect to action substitution and not allowing free actions with move actions, you gotta argue RAW with actions like becoming prone.


One way to look at nauseated condition is an overwhelmingly strong urge to run away. Various video games have implemented this where the PC moves on their own — either with control of their direction, or not.

In Nox there was a spell called "run". It didn't explicitly require the character to move out of an area, but it did have a timed duration where the target could not sit still. I think in that case the victim could still momentarily attack or use a skill though, making it of limited use. There are other cases in games where the target is essentially disabled while moving though, it's just not normally/ever a nausea logic behind why it's occurring.

Anyway, to be a bit more on-topic, I personally have the house rule that movement actions or standard actions can be downgraded to swift actions (or free actions), so this ruling is irrelevant to me. I think people who don't use this rule will encounter illogical and weird scenarios regardless of whether one is allowed to swift/free whilst nauseated.


Ok so lets say I agree you can crawl standing up.

Why do you end your crawl prone? you are considered prone while crawling, but once you are done crawling, you would no longer be prone


Crawling wrote:
A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.


CWheezy wrote:

Ok so lets say I agree you can crawl standing up.

Why do you end your crawl prone? you are considered prone while crawling, but once you are done crawling, you would no longer be prone

Are you being serious?

First off you don't crawl while standing up. No one has said that but you since you seem very confused on how crawling works.

Second the Crawling section tells you its a Move Action to stand up. So until you do that you are crawling.

Crawling wrote:
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.

How is this confusing?

Step One: From a standing position i use a Move Action to get on hands and knees and begin Crawling.

That's it no more steps.

Crawling from a Standing Posistion

I don't understand how it even came to this. It's a clearly written rule in the move action section.

It's Crawling not Rocket Science.

Silver Crusade

Just a side note here.:

I'm pretty sure what CWheezy is referring to is this section from the Combat Rules. Specifically under Table:Actions in Combat - Free actions.
Drop to the floor. There are other references to dropping prone being a free action if I recall correctly.

The argument being that a nauseated person should be capable of collapsing.

The only real counter is that the technicality of the rules prevent a free action, even a very reasonable one, from being taken.


ErrantPursuit wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

The counter argument i brought up is that most if not all of the actions that people claim can't be done while Nauseated can still be done with use of various Move Actions listed in the rules. [Which is not the same as substituting a Move Action for other actions. Since they are listed as ways to use a Move Action.]

I've seen some in this thread claim the ruling is so "silly" because you can't drop your weapon, or can't drop prone, etc. Which is countered by, yes you still can, since Move Action has listed ways of doing those actions.

What this boils down to is preference. Some think it's silly and listed examples of why.

I don't think it's silly and countered that those actions are still able to be taken using the rules for Move Actions.

The rules are clear and at this point it should just be agree to disagree about if a person likes it or not.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

I've seen some in this thread claim the ruling is so "silly" because you can't drop your weapon, or can't drop prone, etc. Which is countered by, yes you still can, since Move Action has listed ways of doing those actions.

What this boils down to is preference. Some think it's silly and listed examples of why.

I don't think it's silly and countered that those actions are still able to be taken using the rules for Move Actions.

I think the point is that these same actions take more time and would incur an AoO simply because one is nauseated. Again, a poster pointed out that opening one's hand to drop a sword should takes the same amount of time.

You're also overlooking the "silly" situations where someone takes a feat that let's them do something as a swift or free action instead of a move action, and while nauseated, the person who has the feats can't do the act but the person without them can.

As Bill Dunn suggested above, if your'e going to argue that RAW says we can't swap move actions for others (which is false) then you are left with absurd outcomes. And sorry, the PDT has done nothing to convince me that the Nauseated Condition was created with full knowledge that these absurd things were intended.


N N 959 wrote:

You're also overlooking the "silly" situations where someone takes a feat that let's them do something as a swift or free action instead of a move action, and while nauseated, the person who has the feats can't do the act but the person without them can.

I disagree with this assessment. By my reading, Quick Draw et al give you a quicker way to perform certain options but do not prevent you from using the original slower option. In the link above, notice it uses the language "you can" and "you may" instead of "you [do]" or "you must".

If I were writing the feat and wanted the slower form to be disallowed, I would have written it like this: "Benefit: When you draw a weapon, use a free action instead of a move action. When you draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) use a move action."

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

It seems like some people really want their free actions to be free. The ruling seems pretty clear that the Nauseated condition means that you must use the Move-equivalent actions instead.


N N 959 wrote:
You're also overlooking the "silly" situations where someone takes a feat that let's them do something as a swift or free action instead of a move action, and while nauseated, the person who has the feats can't do the act but the person without them can.

I wasn't overlooking anything. I was simply showing that certain actions could be done using the rules for Move Actions even when Nauseated.

Also you aren't required to use a feat.

For example Quickdraw lets you draw a weapon as a free action. Nothing is stopping someone from drawing a weapon as a Move Action.

N N 959 wrote:
As Bill Dunn suggested above, if your'e going to argue that RAW says we can't swap move actions for others (which is false) then you are left with absurd outcomes. And sorry, the PDT has done nothing to convince me that the Nauseated Condition was created with full knowledge that these absurd things were intended.

Nothing in the rules allows swapping of actions to other ones unless stated. [Exception being Standard to Move, since it is called out as allowed.]

But i don't see how that is relevant to what I'm saying. Not once have i said you can swap a Move Action to get a Free Action.

I have only shown that the section for Move Actions includes options such as...

Move Actions:
Move Actions

With the exception of specific movement-related skills, most move actions don't require a check.
Move

The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

Accelerated Climbing: You can climb at half your speed as a move action by accepting a –5 penalty on your Climb check.

Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
Direct or Redirect a Spell

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell requires a move action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Manipulate an Item

Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
Mount/Dismount a Steed

Mounting or dismounting a steed requires a move action.

Fast Mount or Dismount: You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check. If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. You can't attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.
Ready or Drop a Shield

Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.

Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.
Stand Up

Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.

No substitution required and it's fully in the rules.

For example when Nauseated my character can't drop prone as a free action, since it's prohibited. But i can use my Move Action to Crawl.

I'm not substituting a Move Action for a Free Action. Since no where in the rules does it say you can. I am quite simply using my Move Action exactly like it says in the rules.


Cuuniyevo wrote:
N N 959 wrote:

You're also overlooking the "silly" situations where someone takes a feat that let's them do something as a swift or free action instead of a move action, and while nauseated, the person who has the feats can't do the act but the person without them can.

I disagree with this assessment. By my reading, Quick Draw et al give you a quicker way to perform certain options but do not prevent you from using the original slower option. In the link above, notice it uses the language "you can" and "you may" instead of "you [do]" or "you must".

If I were writing the feat and wanted the slower form to be disallowed, I would have written it like this: "Benefit: When you draw a weapon, use a free action instead of a move action. When you draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) use a move action."

Let's look at Rapid Reload:

PRD - Rapid Reload wrote:
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow)

Per RAW, there is no "may" or "can." The feat states that the time for reload "is" a free action. So by RAW, once I take this feat, I can't reload my light crossbow when under the NC. Again, the argument Dunn is pointing out that if you're going to go strict and formal RAW on swapping move actions, then you can't have it both ways. Either you interpret the rules with reasonableness (you can swap out a move action to take "one or more" free actions) or you interpret them with blind formalism (you can't swap a move for free and you can't reload your crossbow if you've taken Rapid Reload)--of course the RAW does allows us to "swap" out actions, but I'm just repeating the point Bill Dunn is making.

But you're missing the point. The point is that the rules shouldn't require these types of hurdles and rules lawyering to work or understand. Swapping out a move action for "one or more" equivalent actions is intuitive and simple. A rule where I can take a move action, but not take any actions that take lesser is convoluted.

KingOfAnything wrote:
The ruling seems pretty clear that the Nauseated condition means that you must use the Move-equivalent actions instead.

But that's not what the ruling says. That's you're interpretation and the designers won't even comment on what you're suggesting. And it doesn't solve the problem where there is no move-equivalent because the action taken has been converted to a swift/free action.

And that's ignoring the fact that RAW tells use that "swapping" out a move action is technically allowed.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
'm not substituting a Move Action for a Free Action. Since no where in the rules does it say you can

Wrong.

PRD on Move Action wrote:
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions)...

It's right there in the Move Action definition that one can "swap" a move action. The use of "swap" means it's not a conversion to a move action, but a substitution for the move action.


N N 959 wrote:
Per RAW, there is no "may" or "can." The feat states that the time for reload "is" a free action. So by RAW, once I take this feat, I can't reload my light crossbow when under the NC.

Not quite.

"Feat Descriptions wrote:
Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

Nothing forbids a character from using the normal action.

N N 959 wrote:
It's right there in the Move Action definition that one can "swap" a move action. The use of "swap" means it's not a conversion to a move action, but a substitution for the move action.

How about we look at the entire section.

Action Types:
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.

Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly to make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.

Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions, you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.

Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.

Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).

I've highlighted the rules that specifically allow you to swap an action for another type of action.

But you seem focused on this section for some reason.

PRD wrote:
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions, you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

This portion is talking about when you can take a 5-foot step.

So if you haven't moved actual distance you can still take a 5-foot step. You'll notice that it mentions; "you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions". So what are the equivalent actions?

PRD wrote:

"Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

The equivalent actions are other Move Actions listed that aren't actual distance moved.

But why does it say " one or more equivalent actions"?

It mentions one or more because; "You can take a move action in place of a standard action."

So this; "If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions)..." is the crux of your argument for swapping a Move Action for another type of action?

Not once does it say you can swap a Move Action for any other type of action.

Your entire argument is based around a snippet of text that has nothing to do with what you claim.

So please show me in the rules where it says you can swap a Move Action for another type of action.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
stuff

The feat tells you that the reload "is" a free action. The move action is "reduced" in time. Specific trumps general.

If you are going to argue that when a Move Action tells me I can take actions that take "a similar amount of time" and then insist that I can't perform actions that take less time, then you're employing contradictory logic. Nowhere does it say Rapid Reload is an "election." Why? Do you think that is? Because it was never part of the game rules that one could take a move action and not a free action. There is no reason for the rules to say you can do these Free Actions as Move actions...which is what you claim the rules allow...because there was never any need to do it.

BiaJ wrote:
perform an action that takes a similar amount of time.

Irony. You're telling me that the Pathfinder rules actually intend that we can't perform actions that take less time? Based on what? Yet, you're insisting we can take these actions that take less time and make them take more time? Based on what? You have no rule that supports a non-intuitive position, yet you claim the rules prohibit an intuitive position? Sorry, that argument fails before it even gets out of bed.

BiaJ wrote:

But why does it say " one or more equivalent actions"?

It mentions one or more because; "You can take a move action in place of a standard action."

That is nonsensical because you have it backwards. You don't "swap" your Move Action for a Standard Action, it's the other way around. The rules are 100% clear that you cannot swap a Move Action for a Standard action. Which means that "swapping" must refer to actions that are not Move or Standard. What does that leave us, Brain?

Quote:
So please show me in the rules where it says you can swap a Move Action for another type of action.

I've already done that and you haven't countered it.


N N 959 wrote:

The feat tells you that the reload "is" a free action. The move action is "reduced" in time. Specific trumps general.

If you are going to argue that when a Move Action tells me I can take actions that take "a similar amount of time" and then insist that I can't perform actions that take less time, then you're employing contradictory logic. Nowhere does it say Rapid Reload is an "election." Why? Do you think that is? Because it was never part of the game rules that one could take a move action and not a free action. There is no reason to the rules to say you can do these Free Actions as Move actions...which is what you claim the rules allow...because there was never any need to do it.

Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

Enables doesn't mean forced to.

N N 959 wrote:

BiaJ wrote:

But why does it say " one or more equivalent actions"?

It mentions one or more because; "You can take a move action in place of a standard action."

That is nonsensical. You don't "swap" your Move Action for a Standard Action, it's the other way around. The rules are 100% clear that you cannot swap a Move Action for a Standard action.

I didn't say you could swap a Move Action for a Standard.

I quoted what the rule book says; ""You can take a move action in place of a standard action."

N N 959 wrote:
Which means that "swapping" must refer to actions that are not Move or Standard. What does that leave us, Brain?

Why must it do something it doesn't tell you? You are adding to what the rule says.

N N 959 wrote:
I've already done that and you haven't countered it.

I don't need to counter an assumption by you as to what the rules say. Not once in the rules does it say you can swap a Move Action for another type of action.

N N 959 wrote:

BiaJ wrote:

perform an action that takes a similar amount of time.

Irony. You're telling me that the Pathfinder rules actually intend that we can't perform actions that take less time? Based on what? Yet, you're insisting we can take these actions that take less time and make them take more time? Based on what? You have no rule that supports a non-intuitive position, yet you claim the rules prohibit an intuitive position? Sorry, that argument fails before it even gets out of bed.

"Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

It references what "an action that takes a similar amount of time" is right after you cut off the quote. Context matters.


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When this thread started:

"Can we get a FAQ answer about free and swift actions when nauseated".

Later, after we got that answer:

"The answer is silly because it conflicts with other rules in silly ways (not that we want to, we're just showing the silly conflicts)."

Now:

"Let's argue endlessly about the minutiae of each possible silly conflict and why we would never do that in the first place because we've totally forgotten that nobody wanted to do this stuff anyway."

Doesn't it seem kinda pointless now? Are we all just arguing because we can?


DM_Blake wrote:

When this thread started:

"Can we get a FAQ answer about free and swift actions when nauseated".

Later, after we got that answer:

"The answer is silly because it conflicts with other rules in silly ways (not that we want to, we're just showing the silly conflicts)."

Now:

"Let's argue endlessly about the minutiae of each possible silly conflict and why we would never do that in the first place because we've totally forgotten that nobody wanted to do this stuff anyway."

Doesn't it seem kinda pointless now? Are we all just arguing because we can?

It is pointless.

But at this point I'm arguing because it's silly to use Homebrew rules to justify why an FAQ is silly, using corner cases that aren't even true.

That and it helps pass the time at work. :)


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N N 959 wrote:


PRD on Move Action wrote:
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions)...

It's right there in the Move Action definition that one can "swap" a move action. The use of "swap" means it's not a conversion to a move action, but a substitution for the move action.

Equivalent being something you can do as a move action. Such as retrieve a potion or reload a crossbow. That's why you would move no actual distance.

Nothing in the books say you may take a move action to do a different kind of action, or wizards would get 3 spells a round. They do not. You are wrong. Your insisting that no one has countered your blatant rules twisting is wrong. You are incorrect, mistaken or misleading.

If you provide a single example of a swift or free action being done AS a move action do so now or stop making the assumption that you are correct.


Additionally N N 959,

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action.

Required is the word you want to focus on there. You could take 59 hours to reload a crossbow if you wanted to. Just because something is possibly done quicker it is under no requirement to do so.

I can shower. I can bathe. One takes longer both reach the same goal.

Your ability to bold what you want and leave the rest out is exceptional.


Why does this multiple spells a round nonsense keep popping up. The rules are very clear on the number of spells a round you can cast, so please refrain from muddying the water.


Trogdar wrote:
Why does this multiple spells a round nonsense keep popping up. The rules are very clear on the number of spells a round you can cast, so please refrain from muddying the water.

If you can convert a move action to a swift then you can do a quickened spell as a move. Thus getting you three spells in a round. Do you have a rule that limits this somehow assuming converting your move to a swift is allowed?


Chess Pwn wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
Why does this multiple spells a round nonsense keep popping up. The rules are very clear on the number of spells a round you can cast, so please refrain from muddying the water.
If you can convert a move action to a swift then you can do a quickened spell as a move. Thus getting you three spells in a round. Do you have a rule that limits this somehow assuming converting your move to a swift is allowed?

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn


Correct, Chess pwn. With swift actions being allowed by way of free actions you could in fact even use an immediate action and still get a swift action during your next turn, something normally not allowed. Something not even thinkable until this line of reasoning came around.

It's not mud. It's making it clear how there is a restriction for a reason, actually.


Cavall wrote:

Correct, Chess pwn. With swift actions being allowed by way of free actions you could in fact even use an immediate action and still get a swift action during your next turn, something normally not allowed. Something not even thinkable until this line of reasoning came around.

It's not mud. It's making it clear how there is a restriction for a reason, actually.

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.


Cavall wrote:
N N 959 wrote:


PRD on Move Action wrote:
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions)...

It's right there in the Move Action definition that one can "swap" a move action. The use of "swap" means it's not a conversion to a move action, but a substitution for the move action.

Equivalent being something you can do as a move action. Such as retrieve a potion or reload a crossbow. That's why you would move no actual distance.

I told him that already, he doesn't want to hear it.


Cavall wrote:

Additionally N N 959,

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action.

Required is the word you want to focus on there. You could take 59 hours to reload a crossbow if you wanted to. Just because something is possibly done quicker it is under no requirement to do so.

I can shower. I can bathe. One takes longer both reach the same goal.

Your ability to bold what you want and leave the rest out is exceptional.

Well, now hold on here. There is a class of actions that cannot be taken in a longer slot - swift actions. That prevents any caster from casting swift action spells as move or standard actions. Nobody's really disputing that.

But I'm not sure it's clear that free actions fall into a type of action that can be taken in a longer slot. And that's the rub with this particular condition. You and Brain in a Jar are basically saying you can (at least in some ways), but that isn't obvious in the rules. And if people are going to be sticklers about not allowing free actions with the nauseated condition, maybe they shouldn't complain about people being sticklers about not being able to perform free actions as move actions.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Additionally N N 959,

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action.

Required is the word you want to focus on there. You could take 59 hours to reload a crossbow if you wanted to. Just because something is possibly done quicker it is under no requirement to do so.

I can shower. I can bathe. One takes longer both reach the same goal.

Your ability to bold what you want and leave the rest out is exceptional.

Well, now hold on here. There is a class of actions that cannot be taken in a longer slot - swift actions. That prevents any caster from casting swift action spells as move or standard actions. Nobody's really disputing that.

But I'm not sure it's clear that free actions fall into a type of action that can be taken in a longer slot. And that's the rub with this particular condition. You and Brain in a Jar are basically saying you can (at least in some ways), but that isn't obvious in the rules. And if people are going to be sticklers about not allowing free actions with the nauseated condition, maybe they shouldn't complain about people being sticklers about not being able to perform free actions as move actions.

I'm saying that a free action isn't a move action. So it can't be done during this condition. I'm making no other statement.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
Why does this multiple spells a round nonsense keep popping up. The rules are very clear on the number of spells a round you can cast, so please refrain from muddying the water.
If you can convert a move action to a swift then you can do a quickened spell as a move. Thus getting you three spells in a round. Do you have a rule that limits this somehow assuming converting your move to a swift is allowed?

This is wrong. There's no provision within the rules for converting actions that countermands the restriction on the number of swift actions allowed in a turn.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

I didn't say you could swap a Move Action for a Standard.

I quoted what the rule book says; ""You can take a move action in place of a standard action."

The problem with arguing something without any logical basis is that you often get tripped up in trying to rationalizing it.

The problem that none of you have been able to explain away is why it says "one or more." My explanation is simple. The GM can allow player to "swap" out a move action for a combination of swift/free actions.

You counter that by trying to invoke the rule that we can swap a standard action for a move action. But your logic is nonsensical. Let's look at what you actually typed.

BiaJ wrote:

I've highlighted the rules that specifically allow you to swap an action for another type of action.

But you seem focused on this section for some reason.

PRD wrote:
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions, you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
This portion is talking about when you can take a 5-foot step.

So if you haven't moved actual distance you can still take a 5-foot step. You'll notice that it mentions; "you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions". So what are the equivalent actions?

PRD wrote:
"Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."
The equivalent actions are other Move Actions listed that aren't actual distance moved.

But why does it say " one or more equivalent actions"?

It mentions one or more because; "You can take a move action in place of a standard action."

Emphasis mine. That last bit makes no sense. "One or more" is not mentioned because we can take a move action in place of standard action. Taking a move action in place of a standard action is not "swapping" a move action. The rules talk about swapping a move action not swapping a standard action. You are totally confused if you think swapping a standard action for a move action is the same as swapping a move action for other actions.

To put it another way, what can I "swap" a move action for that constitutes several things? I cannot swap one move action for several move actions. The only way to swap a move action for several other actions is if the combined time of those actions is equivalent to a move action.

Cavall wrote:
Equivalent being something you can do as a move action. Such as retrieve a potion or reload a crossbow. That's why you would move no actual distance.

The rule states "one or more" actions. Do you understand that "more" means more than one? I cannot swap several move equivalent actions for a single move action, which is what you're implying. Ergo, I am swapping my move action for several free actions and possibly a swift action. That's reading for comprehension.

DM_Blake wrote:
I told him that already, he doesn't want to hear it.

No you didn't tell me anything. You simply ignored that the rules, RAW, tells me I can "swap" out my move action for several actions.

None of you has addressed it. You talk around it, you invent convoluted logic, but none of you has given me an example of how I can "swap" several actions for a move action.


N N 959 wrote:
Ergo, I am swapping my move action for several free actions and possibly a swift action. That's reading for comprehension.

How many swift/free actions does it take to make up for an equivalent move action?

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N N 959 expects a level of precision from the rules that just doesn't happen in real life. My pet theory is that the designers left it open for future development and to avoid sticklers saying you can't do more than one thing ever.

Sometimes we just have to accept that there is imprecise language in our precious rules text.


Ultimately the problem is 3rd edition's. Move (the action) and Move Action should not exist as distinct things in any sensible set of terms.


Yikes. I really hate that I read a lot of "reading comprehension " comments from the same poster. It comes off not only as rude and arrogant it doesn't make any statement coming along with it any more correct.

You failed to provide an example N N. because there are none.

There is nothing written in text that supports you. And the only thing that matters here is an FAQ literally saying you get a move action only and nothing else. Not swift or free or standard.

So no. It can't be converted and even if it could it can't under this condition.

It's time to just accept that.


bbangerter wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Ergo, I am swapping my move action for several free actions and possibly a swift action. That's reading for comprehension.
How many swift/free actions does it take to make up for an equivalent move action?

How many free actions can I take in a round? GM discretion.

The fact that there is no precise answer does not change the fact that the rule exists.


KingOfAnything wrote:
N N 959 expects a level of precision from the rules that just doesn't happen in real life.

Uh... no. My statements and logic have nothing to do with rule precision. On the contrary, this is what DM_Blake is arguing: There is no rule which tells us what combo = move so there is no rule.


Ian Bell wrote:
Ultimately the problem is 3rd edition's. Move (the action) and Move Action should not exist as distinct things in any sensible set of terms.

I can accept that. 3rd edition did so much to change the game. (For the better) A lot of it left gaps that needed a fine cleaning.


Cavall wrote:


There is nothing written in text that supports you.

You mean other than RAW saying I can swap my move action for "one or more equivalent actions"?

Quote:
And the only thing that matters here is an FAQ literally saying you get a move action only and nothing else. Not swift or free or standard.

Good thing I can swap my one move action for "one or more equivalent actions"

Quote:
So no. It can't be converted and even if it could it can't under this condition.

First, it's not converting, it's swapping. Totally different mechanic. Second, the FAQ doesn't say that we can't swap. It just says I get a single move action....which RAW says I can swap for "one or more equivalent actions".

EDIT: And if the PDT is really just trying to stop people from using swift actions i.e. LoH, then let them come back and say it and explain it.


Cavall wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Additionally N N 959,

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action.

Required is the word you want to focus on there. You could take 59 hours to reload a crossbow if you wanted to. Just because something is possibly done quicker it is under no requirement to do so.

I can shower. I can bathe. One takes longer both reach the same goal.

Your ability to bold what you want and leave the rest out is exceptional.

Well, now hold on here. There is a class of actions that cannot be taken in a longer slot - swift actions. That prevents any caster from casting swift action spells as move or standard actions. Nobody's really disputing that.

But I'm not sure it's clear that free actions fall into a type of action that can be taken in a longer slot. And that's the rub with this particular condition. You and Brain in a Jar are basically saying you can (at least in some ways), but that isn't obvious in the rules. And if people are going to be sticklers about not allowing free actions with the nauseated condition, maybe they shouldn't complain about people being sticklers about not being able to perform free actions as move actions.

I'm saying that a free action isn't a move action. So it can't be done during this condition. I'm making no other statement.

You are making another statement. You're claiming that something that the rule say is now a free action, I can do as a move action....or longer. No rule supports that conclusion. Does it seem plausible or feasible. Certainly, but no less feasible than saying if I have three seconds to do something, I can can do something that take less than three second.

And that's what's "silly" about how the PDT rule is being interpreted: I can only do things that take three seconds but I can't do anything that takes less than three seconds unless I make it take three seconds.


Actually in the section you quoted I was merely pointing out that you don't have to use a feat you have. N N said that you HAD to for rapid reload and I was pointing out no. That wasn't the case.

I can see how that may blend onto the original topic. Wasn't the intent. Apologies.


N N 959 wrote:

The problem with arguing something without any logical basis is that you often get tripped up in trying to rationalizing it.

The problem that none of you have been able to explain away is why it says "one or more." My explanation is simple. The GM can allow player to "swap" out a move action for a combination of swift/free actions.

You counter that by trying to invoke the rule that we can swap a standard action for a move action. But your logic is nonsensical. Let's look at what you actually typed.

Sorry i guess i should have been more clear.

I mentioned the Standard to a Move Action because that lets you have two Move Actions in a round.

PRD wrote:

"Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

So it was in reference to the bold section. You could have swapped both Move Actions (the one you normally get and the Standard Action to a Move Action) to get one or more equivalent actions.

That's all i was getting at.


Brain in a Jar wrote:


That's all i was getting at.

Yes, that's possible, but then it would need to say, "any move actions for one or more equivalent actions" wouldn't it?

As written, it's talking about one move action being swapped for one or more other actions. The previous sentence which tells us we can swap the standard action for a move action is an independent statement. We can take a 5' step regardless of whether we take a move action in place of a standard action, so the second sentence is not dependent on the first for meaning or significance.

But your last response does make more sense and I do now understand what is was you were trying to say and I can concede that your interpretation could be correct.


N N 959 wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Ergo, I am swapping my move action for several free actions and possibly a swift action. That's reading for comprehension.
How many swift/free actions does it take to make up for an equivalent move action?

How many free actions can I take in a round? GM discretion.

The fact that there is no precise answer does not change the fact that the rule exists.

You are inferring a rule that doesn't actually exist, and therefore may or may not actually be the intent.

"One or more equivalent actions" does not give any indication what might be considered equivalent actions. Is it based on time to perform actions? Effort to perform actions? Something else?

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