|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
From reading the papers by military scientists about the LA riots and similar domestic uses part of it is that the Guard is seen with a mixture of respect for the Army and not being the police. Their commanders also almost always lack the 'whip the animals back' (not the terms used) mindset that can develop in police in troubled areas. The papers also talked about how they were NOT the ideal tool in these circumstances, and that their standing orders and procedures need to be focused on calming things down since the Army (even if it's only a part time one) is a pretty giant fscking sledge hammer and no one sane wants to use it.
The Guard also learned from it's mistakes last century and someone resorting to massed fire into a crowd of angry civilians will almost certainly be court martialed and even if found not guilty be cashiered out.
And, again, before someone says something, I'm talking solely about domestic uses of the Guard in civil disturbance missions.
I don't mind the NG for that reason, the military holds its officers more accountable than police forces seem to. You screw up in the military, you're answering to somebody, and possibly doing Fed time to boot.
It also helps that, in general, when the National Guard is deployed for civilian missions their weapons are not loaded.When I was in an NG unit in Austin back in the college days (around the first Gulf War) we weren't even given the bolts for our rifles if we did protest duty. The rifle was just for show, we were to use our mere presence and charm to keep things chill.
Considering the suspicious number of young, rather handsome tabletop gamers in the Austin area nowadays, I would say your mission succeeded. :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Using the threat of indiscrimate violence against civilians for political reasons... Hmmm, what is that called when it isn't the US doing it?
Tuesday.
(I had originally done an edited version, but this is funnier.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I was arrested in NYC back in 2004, it was interesting how differently we were treated by the NYPD, compared with the corrections officers. The NYPD were very nasty and acted like we had personally insulted their mothers while dealing with us. The corrections officers were very different, just doing their jobs without getting aggressive or seeming to really care one way or another.
I found out years later that the NYPD had put out all kinds of misinformation about the bike riders and protesters that week. They told their officers false information about the reason for the ride and protests, and worked up all kinds of stories about out-of-town anarchists, hell bent on destruction.
The end result was NYC losing the largest protest related settlement in history, although my arrest was over 10 years ago, and I still haven't seen a dime.
When I was arrested in NYC back in 2004, it was interesting how differently we were treated by the NYPD, compared with the corrections officers. The NYPD were very nasty and acted like we had personally insulted their mothers while dealing with us. The corrections officers were very different, just doing their jobs without getting aggressive or seeming to really care one way or another.
I found out years later that the NYPD had put out all kinds of misinformation about the bike riders and protesters that week. They told their officers false information about the reason for the ride and protests, and worked up all kinds of stories about out-of-town anarchists, hell bent on destruction.
The end result was NYC losing the largest protest related settlement in history, although my arrest was over 10 years ago, and I still haven't seen a dime.
I haven't forgotten.
From one bike riding nyer to another - you deserve your money.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
NY Times article on cops not able to produce informants in NYC. I think my favorite line is
Afterward, the District Court judge, Dora L. Irizarry, said the officers’ testimony “was just incredible, and I say ‘incredible’ as a matter of law."
Hurts me that I know where this happened.
I am pretty sure I would recognize one or more of the cops in the 2008 case. It doesn't surprise me that one of them has retired, and that he is not the lieutenant involved.
IME with the police from 3 different nations, (including Brazil, which is not exactly known for it's amazing police force and safe streets), most police officers are actually honest people doing their work, usually legitimately trying to protect and serve the community.
As is the case with any other organization, though, it has bad apples. A!~!&%*s will be a+%*%*+s, no matter their job. And if those a&&*&@*s are in a position of power, they'll abuse it. It doesn't matter if it's the power of carrying loaded arms and beating up people or the power to write and approve bad laws.
Additionally, police officers don't grow on police trees. They most likely come from the communities where they work. The police (much like government) reflects the society that it works for. In a place where racism is common, expect lots of racist cops. In a place where corruption runs rampant, expect corrupt cops.
I know the quality of police forces varies wildly from place to place, but I tend to at least show police officers some respect and give them the benefit of doubt. Their job is often dangerous and underpaid, and to make things worse, the communities they protect often see them with bad eyes...
It's certainly not an easy job. Especially in the communities that most desperately need an effective police force.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
IME with the police from 3 different nations, (including Brazil, which is not exactly known for it's amazing police force and safe streets), most police officers are actually honest people doing their work, usually legitimately trying to protect and serve the community.
As is the case with any other organization, though, it has bad apples. A$#%#%%s will be a@@~@$@s, no matter their job. And if those a*!%%*@s are in a position of power, they'll abuse it. It doesn't matter if it's the power of carrying loaded arms and beating up people or the power to write and approve bad laws.
Additionally, police officers don't grow on police trees. They most likely come from the communities where they work. The police (much like government) reflects the society that it works for. In a place where racism is common, expect lots of racist cops. In a place where corruption runs rampant, expect corrupt cops.
I know the quality of police forces varies wildly from place to place, but I tend to at least show police officers some respect and give them the benefit of doubt. Their job is often dangerous and underpaid, and to make things worse, the communities they protect often see them with bad eyes...
It's certainly not an easy job. Especially in the communities that most desperately need an effective police force.
A. As mentioned above, they often don't live in the communities they work and prefer to have a relatively long commute to avoid running into people they have arrested. This is more true the likely more urban an area is.
B. Aren't recruited from communities which have grown to distrust the police, like minority ones, because people don't grow up to aspire to be their enemy. By actively discriminating against a community, you reduce the number of people from that community interested in being recruited.At this point, I more or less assume a cop is scum on a power trip and deal with them like any other bully, unless they give me the rare cause to think something else.
Also, cops are not underpaid. They are some of the best paid civil servants. The communities see them in a bad light because they take care of their own by not actually having any accountability for their abuses. They are reaping what they sowed with policies like Broken Windows and Stop and Frisk.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
IME with the police from 3 different nations, (including Brazil, which is not exactly known for it's amazing police force and safe streets), most police officers are actually honest people doing their work, usually legitimately trying to protect and serve the community.
As is the case with any other organization, though, it has bad apples. A$#%#%%s will be a@@~@$@s, no matter their job. And if those a*!%%*@s are in a position of power, they'll abuse it. It doesn't matter if it's the power of carrying loaded arms and beating up people or the power to write and approve bad laws.
Additionally, police officers don't grow on police trees. They most likely come from the communities where they work. The police (much like government) reflects the society that it works for. In a place where racism is common, expect lots of racist cops. In a place where corruption runs rampant, expect corrupt cops.
I know the quality of police forces varies wildly from place to place, but I tend to at least show police officers some respect and give them the benefit of doubt. Their job is often dangerous and underpaid, and to make things worse, the communities they protect often see them with bad eyes...
It's certainly not an easy job. Especially in the communities that most desperately need an effective police force.
A. As mentioned above, they often don't live in the communities they work and prefer to have a relatively long commute to avoid running into people they have arrested. This is more true the likely more urban an area is.
B. Aren't recruited from communities which have grown to distrust the police, like minority ones, because people don't grow up to aspire to be their enemy. By actively discriminating against a community, you reduce the number of people from that community interested in being recruited.At this point, I more or less assume a cop is scum on a power trip and deal with them like any other bully, unless they give me the rare cause to think something else.
Also,...
^--- All of that. Also, semi-related, but you want to talk underpaid? More fast food workers are killed per capita than cops and their asking to be paid more than the minimum wage is met with derision and anger by the same people who defend criminal cops. I'll leave it there so as not to hijack, but it really gets my cackles up.
There's a definite problem with the police, especially when interacting with minority groups.
Truthfully, it can probably be traced back to our unique relationship with slavery and how this made America distinct from its European fellows in its development of white supremacy. The way-too-simplified explanation would probably be, whereas European white supremacy was outwardly focused and expansionist, America's looked inward. Rich European immigrants experienced uprising and revolts of both slaves and poor white immigrants - usually brought over as little more than slaves themselves - and learned quickly to divide and conquer. Keep institutionally powerless lower-class whites looking down, afraid of blacks rising to their very limited station, so they wouldn't look up and see whose boot was on the back of their neck. The very institution of the municipal police department is at its core racist, an extension of this meant to insulate white communities and cow minority ones into submission.
To put it succinctly, it working precisely how it is designed to work.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IME with the police from 3 different nations, (including Brazil, which is not exactly known for it's amazing police force and safe streets), most police officers are actually honest people doing their work, usually legitimately trying to protect and serve the community.
As is the case with any other organization, though, it has bad apples. A%*!!$%s will be a$++@%*s, no matter their job. And if those a%+#*&*s are in a position of power, they'll abuse it. It doesn't matter if it's the power of carrying loaded arms and beating up people or the power to write and approve bad laws.
Additionally, police officers don't grow on police trees. They most likely come from the communities where they work. The police (much like government) reflects the society that it works for. In a place where racism is common, expect lots of racist cops. In a place where corruption runs rampant, expect corrupt cops.
I know the quality of police forces varies wildly from place to place, but I tend to at least show police officers some respect and give them the benefit of doubt. Their job is often dangerous and underpaid, and to make things worse, the communities they protect often see them with bad eyes...
It's certainly not an easy job. Especially in the communities that most desperately need an effective police force.
Lemmy, actually, the practice in the U.S. is to have officers who don't even live in the same city, let alone neighborhood, patrolling. The government apparently doesn't want Officer Krupki giving anyone a pass because he happens to know what his home life is like, or knows someone's dad. So, the police here, in a lot of places, have zero connection to their patrol area.
I do not deny that there are awful cops in the force. It'd be really freaking blind and stupid of me to say that.
Sadly, awful people are present in every field of work in the world. Sadly, awful cops are capable of doing far greater harm than awful members of other professions. To the point where if even only 1% of the cops were corrupt and/or poorly trained, it can have devastating consequences (And it's obviously more than 1%). I just don't think they are the majority.
I'm sure every police force in the word has at least one awful policy or practice. Same can be said about pretty much every organization in the world. Like it or not every organization has its policies dictated by humans, and humans are flawed.
BTW, by community, I meant "city" or "state", not neighborhood. In literally every big city where I've ever been cops usually work away from their neighborhood, both to prevent them going easy on people they know and to avoid retaliation by criminals they arrested.
Still, living on the other side of the city, or even in a different city, while certainly providing completely different backgrounds and life experiences, is still being part of the same community. And the time the cop spends on the area where he works is time spent being part of that community, for better or worse...
If you live in city/country/state/nation/whatever that has, say, a serious problem with racism/xenophobia/homophobia/whatever, expect those to be common among police officers as well. Like every other human on Earth, cops are influenced by the people surrounding them.
I'm not absolving the police of all guilt. Believe me, I know what harm dirty cops can do. What I'm saying is that honest cops are more common than dirty ones. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's my honest impression of the situation....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do not deny that there are awful cops in the force. It'd be really freaking blind and stupid of me to say that.
Sadly, awful people are present in every field of work in the world. Sadly, awful cops are capable of doing far greater harm than awful members of other professions. To the point where if even only 1% of the cops were corrupt and/or poorly trained, it can have devastating consequences (And it's obviously more than 1%). I just don't think they are the majority.
I'm sure every police force in the word has at least one awful policy or practice. Same can be said about pretty much every organization in the world. Like it or not every organization has its policies dictated by humans, and humans are flawed.
BTW, by community, I meant "city" or "state", not neighborhood. In literally every big city where I've ever been cops usually work away from their neighborhood, both to prevent them going easy on people they know and to avoid retaliation by criminals they arrested.
Still, living on the other side of the city, or even in a different city, while certainly providing completely different backgrounds and life experiences, is still being part of the same community. And the time the cop spends on the area where he works is time spent being part of that community, for better or worse...
If you live in city/country/state/nation/whatever that has, say, a serious problem with racism/xenophobia/homophobia/whatever, expect those to be common among police officers as well. Like every other human on Earth, cops are influenced by the people surrounding them.
I'm not absolving the police of all guilt. Believe me, I know what harm dirty cops can do. What I'm saying is that honest cops are more common than dirty ones. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's my honest impression of the situation....
In my experience, inner city cops live in suburbia as far away from city life as they can get. You can't deal with a community by treating every part of a large area the same. Communities can be as small as a block, and you can have vastly different ones across the street from each other.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have personal experience with cops who handled a stressful and dangerous situation with poise, kindness, reason, and appropriate force when my uncle had a psychotic episode, called the cops when he thought people were coming to kill him and then when the cops got there was swinging around a giant sword and threatening them because he thought that they were the ones coming to kill him. They talked him down a bit, disarmed him and arrested him to get him psychiatric care without harming him(he is black by the way).
And I have experience with cops who literally jumped me and beat me half to death in front of 30 witnesses without even saying anything to me when I was just minding my own business and not doing anything even remotely shady.
There are good cops and bad cops, the real problem in my mind is one of accountability when the bad cops go wild.
If there's a flag/post you think we've overlooked or that we've made a mistake, please let us know by pinging our team at community@paizo.com. We're human here and the forums are fast paced and it's possible for us to miss posts on occasion (though we really try not to).I find myself amazed that pointing out discrepancy of police action, in response to the racial component of the use of excessive and/or lethal force, is deemed unsuitable - yet flagging victim-blaming meets with remarkable amounts of laissez faire.
I suppose we have to settle for illustrating the culture that pervades.
SAYS THE ROBOT; BLATANT LIES!
But seriously, this is appreciated. Given my history of seeing many of my posts vanish down the Memory Hole, and given the nature and tone of the discussion, I was feeling profiled. Further review confirms it's not just me, and the posts that were causing some of the ire were eventually gotten-to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes your life is worth less than the cost of a movie ticket.
I am truly furious that the deputies involved here were not indicted. Frothing with rage. There was no need to kill that young man, nor was there even a need for them to be there. They *ignored* the aide AND his mother was on her way there? Completely preventable AND inexcusable.
This might help explain a bit for those of you who don't know how grand juries work and why it might be problematic in relation to police shootings.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes your life is worth less than the cost of a movie ticket.I am truly furious that the deputies involved here were not indicted. Frothing with rage. There was no need to kill that young man, nor was there even a need for them to be there. They *ignored* the aide AND his mother was on her way there? Completely preventable AND inexcusable.
It's part of the psychology of being a person with authority. When you *generic you* have authority and someone else does not, it's very easy to dismiss them and ignore them. You have a goal, you make your assumptions and because authority (and sometimes lots of training and experience) has been invested in you, you assume you are correct and anyone speaking against you is wrong.
The officers in this situation exhibited this pattern pretty clearly, and in very typical fashion for officers. They don't arrive in a situation and take the time to assess everything, rather relying on training and experience to inform their assumptions, and with the goal of ending every situation as fast as possible, they act on their assumptions. Most techniques that officers use involve escalating the situation, often with force, until they are in complete control of a scene.
There are times where this strategy prevents injuries to the officer, but there are plenty of times it pushes scenes to violence that might not have gotten there on their own.
Well, so are non-native americans, yet natives tend to get killed more, not kill off tresspassers.
The only reason cops have authority is because they carry bigger guns and people are afraid of them. And its interesting to see a cop apologist whine about people thinkig "aint nobody gonna tell me what to do", as that is the very basis of authoritarian cop-supporting capitalism.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
On the flip side, there is a growing mentality of "Ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do!"
The British Monarchy agree with you. Those lazy colonists, not wanting to pay for a war they started, not wanting to accept legitimate tea, declaring independence, trying to surrender when the government gets tired of their crap, winning the resulting war when the military steps in to kick their butts...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
He was a trespasser who refused to leave. That is a very good reason for the cops to be there.Sometimes your life is worth less than the cost of a movie ticket.I am truly furious that the deputies involved here were not indicted. Frothing with rage. There was no need to kill that young man, nor was there even a need for them to be there. They *ignored* the aide AND his mother was on her way there? Completely preventable AND inexcusable.
if there was semi standard developmental delay, I would buy this- it's not like people eat their diagnosis on their foreheads. But this is downs syndrome- it's pretty freaking obvious who has down syndrome and who does not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He was a trespasser who refused to leave. That is a very good reason for the cops to be there.
And a good reason for the police to use a chokehold?
if there was semi standard developmental delay, I would buy this- it's not like people WEAR their diagnosis on their foreheads. But this is downs syndrome- it's pretty freaking obvious who has down syndrome and who does not.He was a trespasser who refused to leave. That is a very good reason for the cops to be there.Sometimes your life is worth less than the cost of a movie ticket.I am truly furious that the deputies involved here were not indicted. Frothing with rage. There was no need to kill that young man, nor was there even a need for them to be there. They *ignored* the aide AND his mother was on her way there? Completely preventable AND inexcusable.
fixed
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And I'm sure there was a good reason for the choke hold...
He was a trespasser who refused to leave. That is a very good reason for the cops to be there.
He was resisting arrest. The officer had no choice and didn't intend to kill him anyway.
There's pretty much no way the officer could be convicted or even charged in this case - because they only look at the very end. At each step along the way, the officer did nothing illegal. There were of course plenty of things the officer could have done to deescalate the situation and not wind up forcibly arresting the poor man (and thus killing him), but the police have no obligation to do so.
I'm going to disagree here.
And I'm sure there was a good reason for the choke hold...
He was a trespasser who refused to leave. That is a very good reason for the cops to be there.
He was resisting arrest. The officer had no choice and didn't intend to kill him anyway.
There's pretty much no way the officer could be convicted or even charged in this case - because they only look at the very end. At each step along the way, the officer did nothing illegal. There were of course plenty of things the officer could have done to deescalate the situation and not wind up forcibly arresting the poor man (and thus killing him), but the police have no obligation to do so.
Sometimes you can make a difference. (Assuming you have $1.75 million)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, being mentally is about as dangerous as being black when it comes to dealing with police.
What do you expect? They're trained to demand compliance and to escalate force until they get it.
On the flip side, there is a growing mentality of "Ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do!" Anybody who works with the public deals with people just like that, who believe that the rules don't apply to them and that nobody has authority over them.
These are the people who will argue with the pizza driver for not accepting a check from them when the company doesn't take checks, or the parents at a school outraged when they are required to show ID to pick up their kids when the sign is on the door saying ID is required, or the guy who got in trouble at work for showing up 15 minutes late and saying, "So?" when told he was late.
So when you get a clash between people whose entire job is to be in control of a situation that is going bad and people who refuse to let anyone tell them what to do, it will necessarily escalate until one side is in control, and that only happens by force (not always physical).
I've encountered them. I worked in big box retail for 10 years. I've run across my share of real asshats. I mean the true scourge of the earth types that have the means, will, and time to launch a full on campaign to ruin someones career and livelihood because they didn't like the way you greeted them. People who try to get employees fired for not accepting their return ("I'm sorry ma'am, CompUSA doesn't sell silverware, and this receipt is from Chick-fil-a." <--- TRUE STORY!!) Or folks who complain to managers for literal shits-and-giggles. They are awful, terrible people. I have have to physically restrain an associate to keep them from punching a person like this out, I've had to use every bit of my self-control to keep from laying one out.
That doesn't mean that I think they should be killed by the police. The idea that people deserve to die just because they are jerks is completely outrageous. The idea that cops killing innocent people should be less outrageous because they were jerks is frankly nauseating.
The idea that people deserve to die just because they are jerks is completely outrageous.
No it really isn't. Everyone is going to die over something -- the fact you (generic sense, not you specifically Big) constantly cause grief and it finally catches up to them isn't tragic. It's a better reason to die than simply being in the wrong place and someone not liking the way you look (Zimmerman I am looking at you).
You piss off enough people and eventually it's going to come back and bite you. People forget that humans are social creatures, if you don't play in the society eventually the herd (or pack) will cull you or something else will.
The idea that cops killing innocent people should be less outrageous because they were jerks is frankly nauseating.
However this I agree with. Cops shouldn't just kill people because they are jerks.
However like anything else just being a jerk shouldn't protect you from things either, and if all you do is be a jerk all I can do is shrug when it finally gets back to you.
A lot of these sorts of people cause their own deaths or problems more often than not (again not that we should "darwin police" as much as the idea doesn't quite appall me as much it should).
The idea that people deserve to die just because they are jerks is completely outrageous.No it really isn't. Everyone is going to die over something -- the fact you (generic sense, not you specifically Big) constantly cause grief and it finally catches up to them isn't tragic. It's a better reason to die than simply being in the wrong place and someone not liking the way you look (Zimmerman I am looking at you).
You piss off enough people and eventually it's going to come back and bite you. People forget that humans are social creatures, if you don't play in the society eventually the herd (or pack) will cull you or something else will.
Thing is, this argument is never used when a cop is shot. Then it's all "oh they were a hero dying to that criminal scum". Despite that they cause grief all the time.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
It also ties in nicely to the "It's the black people's fault" theme. If it's not because they're criminals, it's because they must just be jerks to cops more often.
If they don't enjoy being shot to death, maybe they should trying being a little less black. /s
The only reason cops have authority is because they carry bigger guns and people are afraid of them. And its interesting to see a cop apologist whine about people thinkig "aint nobody gonna tell me what to do", as that is the very basis of authoritarian cop-supporting capitalism.I have this vague sense you're trying to insult me, but your last sentence didn't really make sense.
The very basis of the ideology of the US and the system the US police system is based off is "ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do", usually followed by "with my property", where "my property" is defined by modern capitalist ideology and force of arms.
In a system wherein the people collectively controls how society is ran and how people should be allowed to act or not (ie a democracy), the police system would be radically different to the point of not being recognizable to the current system.
If a large amount of people where to take claim over a building that some rich dude can use police violence to lay claim to, that rich dude will say "aint nobody gonna tell me what to do with my property" and send the cops after them. And the cops will of course defend that guy's claim, since the current legal system is built around the idea of that "aint nobody gonna tell me what to do" is a reasonable stance for those with lots of firepower (ie capital).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The only reason cops have authority is because they carry bigger guns and people are afraid of them. And its interesting to see a cop apologist whine about people thinkig "aint nobody gonna tell me what to do", as that is the very basis of authoritarian cop-supporting capitalism.I have this vague sense you're trying to insult me, but your last sentence didn't really make sense.
I'll see if I can help translate. Cop apologists often blame people who get shot for being shot. Cop apologists also say that self-important jerks deserve what they get.
It seems a natural conclusion to many of us that cops are the definition of self important jerks and that they would rather murder someone than relent absolute dominance. Even when the situation is no where near that level of intensity. So what actually happens is that two-self important jerks collide and the one with the bigger gun (read: only gun) wins. 99% of the time this is the cop and cop apologists will say that the victim deserved it. In the 1% of the time that it isn't the cop with the bigger gun and the cop loses, then cop apologists are up in arms, other cops will beat the suspect, DA's won't throw GJ hearings to let them off (but quite the opposite) and generally get crapped on by the system even in cases where the cop was later found to have been causing harm, acting outside their pervue, threatening innocents, or all of the above.
Many of us find that this level of dissonance could only be the result of (1) academic dishonesty, or (2) brain damage. So rather than say you have brain damage, we instead say that you are being dishonest. If you insist that you aren't being dishonest then I will accept that and presume the second possibility is true. Your words will hold equal weight with me in either case.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It also ties in nicely to the "It's the black people's fault" theme. If it's not because they're criminals, it's because they must just be jerks to cops more often.If they don't enjoy being shot to death, maybe they should trying being a little less black. /s
I know it's sarcasm, but that's about a perfect summation of FOX News' position.
Pardon the expression, but there are few issues on the scene right now that are as black and white as this one. (The only one that immediately springs to mind is torture.) You are on the side of victims, or you are on the side of the murderers. This is not left vs right, law and order vs civil liberties. This is as close to being on the side of objective good versus objective evil you will ever get.
Look at the photos from the 1950's and 60's, where the cops turned firehoses on civil-rights protesters and consider for a long while, if you'd been raised in that era, whose side you would be on.