AC cap?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Working on a fighter for a group. I'm at AC 33, with touch AC23 at 10th level and in medium armor. There isn't some sort of upwards cap on AC, right?

Shadow Lodge

nope


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Working on a fighter for a group. I'm at AC 33, with touch AC23 at 10th level and in medium armor. There isn't some sort of upwards cap on AC, right?

Nope, no cap. That AC is really good but if you look at it, a 10th level ranged-weapon ranger with weapon specialization, a 20 dexterity, point-blank attack, attacking its primary favored enemy with a +3 bow then you're looking at +25 to-hit on his first attack. So, it's not like you'll be invincible.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No cap as long as you remember the stacking rules.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
No cap as long as you remember the stacking rules.

That's a good point. I'd be interested to see how the original poster got to the 33 AC.


MeanMutton wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
No cap as long as you remember the stacking rules.
That's a good point. I'd be interested to see how the original poster got to the 33 AC.

Offhand... +9 from dex, +2 luck w/ trait, +2 insight, +6 AC, +2 shield, +1 dodge sits you at 31 and no particularly hard effort.

Liberty's Edge

Assuming Celestial Chain and Dex 26 (as high a Dex as reasonable), +8 Dex, +9 Armor, +1 Natural Armor (Amulet), +1 Deflection (Ring), +1 Dodge (Feat), +1 Luck (Jingasa), +1 Insight (Ioun Stone), is easy. Make that Luck +2 with a Trait, and you've got 33 right there.

Scarab Sages

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MeanMutton wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
No cap as long as you remember the stacking rules.
That's a good point. I'd be interested to see how the original poster got to the 33 AC.

Not totally sure I'm adding right. Character is a 10th level Tower Shield Specialist. 10th level has 62000 gold to start with, and the increase for +4 armor or +4 shield is only 16000 each (Plus armor and master crafting).

Character isn't complete yet, but looking at:

+4 Breastplate (6 base, +4 enhancement ac) 10 ac
+4 Tower Shield (4 base, +4 enhancement, +1 shield focus) 9 ac
18 dex (+4 ac) 4 ac

That's 23, plus the stock 10 for base AC, so 33 AC.

Tower shield specialist is allowing me to use my tower shield sheild bonus for touch AC, so that plus dex, plus the base 10 is 23 AC

Tower shield specialist is also allowing the dex bonus.

Our DM is a bit odd (and also wonderful). He's allowing a 25pt character build, but no starting stat (after modifiers) can be below 7 or above 18 (for the 1st level version). His reasoning is it makes for more balanced characters. PC is STR 20, Dex 18, con 15.

Grand Lodge

Might want to consider a bit less on the armor & shield, and adding a few other sources of AC, since I think it is possible to get the AC higher.

Ring of Protection (+1 deflection) = 2k gp
Amulet of Natural Armor (+1 natural armor) = 2k gp
Jingasa (+1 luck) = 5k gp
Ioun stone (+1 insight bonus to AC, IIRC) = 5k gp (IIRC)

Belt for Str & Dex +2 each, for another 10k gp...

Liberty's Edge

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The Ring, Amulet, Jingasa, and Ioun Stone combined cost the same as raising both the shield and armor to +4 from +3, so drop them to +3 each, buy those things and you net +2 AC for the same money.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
He's allowing a 25pt character build, but no starting stat (after modifiers) can be below 7 or above 18 (for the 1st level version). His reasoning is it makes for more balanced characters.

Good house rule!

Shadow Lodge

Just so you know, this is what your character will be wearing if he gets a jingasa.

There's this less ridiculous looking option.


Bracelet doesn't grant an AC bonus. This is the thread about AC bonuses.

Liberty's Edge

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Also, I very much doubt most GMs will require you to wear a jingasa per se. Any helmet or hat would do for most, IMO.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

MeanMutton wrote:
a 10th level ranged-weapon ranger with weapon specialization,

Weapon focus. Rangers don't get Specialization, and Focus is the one for To Hit bonuses.

Scarab Sages

kinevon wrote:

Might want to consider a bit less on the armor & shield, and adding a few other sources of AC, since I think it is possible to get the AC higher.

Ring of Protection (+1 deflection) = 2k gp
Amulet of Natural Armor (+1 natural armor) = 2k gp
Jingasa (+1 luck) = 5k gp
Ioun stone (+1 insight bonus to AC, IIRC) = 5k gp (IIRC)

Belt for Str & Dex +2 each, for another 10k gp...

Thanks.

I'll admit to being really lacking in knowledge at the contents of the magic items section of the book.

My equipment list is those two, a +4 cloak of resistance, food/clothes, and a weapon with whatever else I can afford. That's it. A very simple PC.

Your route is probably better, I'll look into it.

As for getting the AC higher, the above uses 1 feat (shield focus)...as a 10th level fighter, I get 6 combat feats and 5 general feats.

Plan is to go with the 5 feat Ray Shield route. That leaves me with 1 combat and 5 general.

I was tinkering around with a mount, as the mounted combat feats would add some addition, probably unnessessary, durability to the PC.

The other route would be to ditch the fighter altogether, given that the above is probably overkill on the defense. Just thoughts.

EDIT: On subject with too much armor, the Tortise Companion with barding has a pretty high AC potential. Horrible dex, but high AC potential...

Scarab Sages

I did some data a while back on Armor Class.
Here


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Avatar-1 wrote:

Just so you know, this is what your character will be wearing if he gets a jingasa.

There's this less ridiculous looking option.

I don't think anyone forces your magic items to look exactly like the ones in the book. Or if they do they're very sadistic people. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the standard magic item set-up is practically a clown costume without any reflavoring.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

yeah if you take the default items...you will be wearing all the colors of the rainbow.


Ifyour rainbow coloured.. no one is going to see specific parts of you easily though.

haha like that guy with the oni mask from the oniwaban from rurouni kenshin


Not the thread I thought this was going to be.

From the title, I was hoping for discussion about stylish headgear for a velociraptor, or the challenges of keeping the top hat on your dire bat while they are flying. =0)

-TimD


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Since fashion tends to be set by the more powerful people in a society, and the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is a must have for anyone who can afford one, I would expect everyone to be wearing jingasas, even non-magical ones.

Shadow Lodge

Jingasas are cool, everyone should wear them, even pandas wear them and it gives the a +1 enhacement to awesomeness


Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Avatar-1 wrote:
Quote:
He's allowing a 25pt character build, but no starting stat (after modifiers) can be below 7 or above 18 (for the 1st level version). His reasoning is it makes for more balanced characters.
Good house rule!

Same here 25 is for very balanced character for what class your playing.


I actually like the idea of saying nothing below 7 and nothing above 18 after racial adjustments with a 25 point buy.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
a 10th level ranged-weapon ranger with weapon specialization,
Weapon focus. Rangers don't get Specialization, and Focus is the one for To Hit bonuses.

Doh, you're right. Thank you!


You may want to dabble in increasing your saves also. Cause heck, you never know when the gm is gonna throw a bunch of wizards at you!

Scarab Sages

Domestichauscat wrote:
You may want to dabble in increasing your saves also. Cause heck, you never know when the gm is gonna throw a bunch of wizards at you!

Well, this PC is one of those "tough as nails, but not much offensive ability" builds. I'm a tenth level dwarf tower shield specialist with the feats for the Ray Shield (disruptive, spell breaker, shield focus, Missile Shield, and ray shield), plus the dwarf spellshatter racial feat, endurance and three sunder related feats.

Anywho, Final tally on AC.
+10 armor (+4 breast plate)
+9 shield (+4 mithril tower shield)
+1 natural armor (+1 Amulet of Natural Armor)
+1 deflection (+1 ring of protection)
+5 dex bonus (+4 natural, belt of physical might: +2 dex and +2 str)
+2 dodge bonus against flying creatures (sky sentinel racial trait)
+2 circumstance to critical confirmation (dwarven boulder helm)
+10 base AC

So against normal land targets, AC is 36. Touch AC is 25. critical confirmation or a flying attacker is 38 and 27 respectively. If both critical confirmation and the attacker is flying, 40 AC and 29 touch ac.

On a side note, I went mithril on the tower shield not to make it lighter, but to add HP against sunder. This PC will really suffer if you sunder his shield. That "pilum" weapon is absurd against this build and I really hope my DM doesn't use them on a PC with decent attack bonuses.

On the other hand, I think my next caster type is going to be proficient with the pilum. Just a really strong ranged weapon against tower shields and shield based classes.


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Personally I'd skip over the Sunder line. Iron Will, Steel Soul, and maybe Improved Iron Will can help establish the feel of the iron wall kind of character and give you a much-needed defense against casters.

Sunder is nice against a subset of characters, but useless against a lot more-- how much does the dragon care that you're trying to sunder his weapon? Not in the least, he doesn't have one. Instead he's going to just keep on nomming on your face.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:

Personally I'd skip over the Sunder line. Iron Will, Steel Soul, and maybe Improved Iron Will can help establish the feel of the iron wall kind of character and give you a much-needed defense against casters.

Sunder is nice against a subset of characters, but useless against a lot more-- how much does the dragon care that you're trying to sunder his weapon? Not in the least, he doesn't have one. Instead he's going to just keep on nomming on your face.

As I said, no perfect defense.

Dragons aren't really something I'd face alone, so I could at least hope to have some help there. Right now, didn't have the coin for ghost touch on any of the armor, so a big problem if stuck against incorporeal enemies.

If you really think dragons are a more probable threat than flying creatures, I could swap the Sky Sentinel for Wyrmscourged, as they swap the same traits (and PC hasn't entered the game yet). I was just thinking that the PC lacks a solid ranged solution, so a flying creature is more likely a threat than a dragon.

Steel soul is nice, but requires the same trait that was swapped for the SR (hardy). That one is was a tough trade. I like the SR, just seems like forcing two rolls, one to beat SR and one for saves would be more practical than a bonus to saves. That was my reasoning.


Dragon was an example-- it's any big animal, any magical beast, really the majority of monsters, who depend on natural attacks over manufactured weapons. Do you know what kind of campaign it's supposed to be in?

Missed that you had the SR trait. Ignore Steel Soul then.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:

Dragon was an example-- it's any big animal, any magical beast, really the majority of monsters, who depend on natural attacks over manufactured weapons. Do you know what kind of campaign it's supposed to be in?

Missed that you had the SR trait. Ignore Steel Soul then.

Skull and Shackles. We're past most of the swimming sections (says the DM) and are now clearing the island. No spoilers, please.


Couldn't give any if I wanted to; I've never so much as read it. I know it involves boats and pirates, that's about it.

If you're confident it's lots of fights against humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and other things that actually wield weapons and wear armor, the Sunder line is good. If you're not, it could turn out to be a useless feat chain.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:

Couldn't give any if I wanted to; I've never so much as read it. I know it involves boats and pirates, that's about it.

If you're confident it's lots of fights against humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and other things that actually wield weapons and wear armor, the Sunder line is good. If you're not, it could turn out to be a useless feat chain.

Actually, got interesting extras with it. I've got the Spellbreaker Dwarf Racial which allows sundering of spells cast on my PC or others, which does use a sunder roll.

I also took the "Shrapnel Strike" from Champions of Corruption which allows me to break inanimate objects to create a shattering explosion, effectively giving my fighter an AoE option. A pretty solid option for things like those multiple stirges mentioned on the other thread. Mind you, this one damages everything in the area, myself included, so it isn't without cost and will be used sparingly.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Skull and Shackles. We're past most of the swimming sections (says the DM) and are now clearing the island. No spoilers, please.

Some GMs might rule that you can only crate tower shield from wood, even despite Force Tower is actual legit thing.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Also, I very much doubt most GMs will require you to wear a jingasa per se. Any helmet or hat would do for most, IMO.

As do I. However, one must wonder how far your GM will let you go with it. If you change the flavor to a "lucky bandanna" for example, does it still weigh 4 pounds? Weight remains a mechanical limitation of items, not flavor.


Ravingdork wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Also, I very much doubt most GMs will require you to wear a jingasa per se. Any helmet or hat would do for most, IMO.
As do I. However, one must wonder how far your GM will let you go with it. If you change the flavor to a "lucky bandanna" for example, does it still weigh 4 pounds? Weight remains a mechanical limitation of items, not flavor.

I would, but I don't track encumbrance except by common sense, with the caveat that my players first purchase greater than 1k must be a bag of holding.

Scarab Sages

Bronnwynn wrote:
I would, but I don't track encumbrance except by common sense, with the caveat that my players first purchase greater than 1k must be a bag of holding.

The bag of holding is an odd one because it has a fixed weight, no matter how much goes in. The largest version weighs more than full plate. There are some pretty major considerations with regards to encumbrance and a bag of holding, especially on PCs with lacking strength.

DarkPhoenixx wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Skull and Shackles. We're past most of the swimming sections (says the DM) and are now clearing the island. No spoilers, please.
Some GMs might rule that you can only crate tower shield from wood, even despite Force Tower is actual legit thing.

Can't afford the listed shield, but nice to know about.

In regards to a wooden tower shield, not sure why they'd be restricted to a certain material. Maybe for swimming?

At present, character has a -3 armor check penalty, between all the bonuses this build has against them. I also have a strength high enough where I'm carrying a light load.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Also, I very much doubt most GMs will require you to wear a jingasa per se. Any helmet or hat would do for most, IMO.
As do I. However, one must wonder how far your GM will let you go with it. If you change the flavor to a "lucky bandanna" for example, does it still weigh 4 pounds? Weight remains a mechanical limitation of items, not flavor.

Oh, agreed. I'd require it to be a reasonably heavy hat or helm...the style is just mutable.

Grand Lodge

Bronnwynn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Also, I very much doubt most GMs will require you to wear a jingasa per se. Any helmet or hat would do for most, IMO.
As do I. However, one must wonder how far your GM will let you go with it. If you change the flavor to a "lucky bandanna" for example, does it still weigh 4 pounds? Weight remains a mechanical limitation of items, not flavor.
I would, but I don't track encumbrance except by common sense, with the caveat that my players first purchase greater than 1k must be a bag of holding.

Would you allow a handy haversack, instead?


kinevon wrote:
Bronnwynn wrote:
I would, but I don't track encumbrance except by common sense, with the caveat that my players first purchase greater than 1k must be a bag of holding.
Would you allow a handy haversack, instead?

Depends how much stuff they're toting at a time. Probably, as long as they're relatively reasonable, and especially if they're picking up a BoH or more HHs later.

I also bundle this with a "You must keep track of your own loot. You must split it equitably. If you all argue excessively over who gets loot, or if you try to steal loot from party members, that loot will simultaneously plasmatize and accelerate at your head at a great rate of knots" because I don't particularly like that sort of squabbling. House rules.

Murdock Muckeater wrote:

Bronnwynn wrote:
Stuff
The bag of holding is an odd one because it has a fixed weight, no matter how much goes in. The largest version weighs more than full plate. There are some pretty major considerations with regards to encumbrance and a bag of holding, especially on PCs with lacking strength.

Very true... but I've never run a party that doesn't have someone capable of toting the thing around without a sweat. If I did run into such a situation I'd probably handwave it because I'm generally nice.

Also worth noting that all of this is houserule and per RAW you should track encumbrance and have fun doing it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ravingdork wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Also, I very much doubt most GMs will require you to wear a jingasa per se. Any helmet or hat would do for most, IMO.
As do I. However, one must wonder how far your GM will let you go with it. If you change the flavor to a "lucky bandanna" for example, does it still weigh 4 pounds? Weight remains a mechanical limitation of items, not flavor.

I'm not sure I've ever witnessed a GM or player interaction regarding how another player's magic items look.

I guess it happens, but I wouldn't do it.

Sovereign Court

@OP - why is the build using a breastplate instead of full plate anyway? Is it mithril to keep your movement up?

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
@OP - why is the build using a breastplate instead of full plate anyway? Is it mithril to keep your movement up?

I want adamantine breastplate, but didn't have the gold. Medium for sleeping purposes (endurance). Not a fan of having to take off the armor (I bathe with it on, tower shield too).

Full plate also has worse check penalties, which hits this PC harder than others. As is, despite all the gear and class build, tower shield is still -3 check penalty. Character has a -2 mod on intelligence, so I'm getting 1 skill point per level due to pathfinder minimum skill points per level. As is, I'm going to have issues passing some of the skill tests under bad conditions.

I will also note that adding mithril or adamantium to heavy armor is more expensive than medium armor.

Breast plate is normal steel. Mithril is the tower shield which I had to spring for, purely because this class can't risk getting the shield sundered, wood warped, or rusted away. Can't make shields out of adamantine, no reason given in the pathfinder books. My suspicion is that they not given DR as shields, but that isn't what I'd want anyway, but the book didn't seem to think you'd want adamantine without the DR.

Sovereign Court

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I want adamantine breastplate, but didn't have the gold. Medium for sleeping purposes (endurance). Not a fan of having to take off the armor (I bathe with it on, tower shield too).

You'd be better off with a mithril suit of full plate than an adamantine breastplate, and it's basically the same price. (a couple hundred more gold) It'd have the same armor check penalty, and you'd get more mileage out of an extra +3 AC than you would DR 2/-.

Your GM must spring a bunch of craziness on you when sleeping etc - I generally just have a masterwork chain shirt I wear for sleeping, and I don't think I've ever sprung for the Endurance feat.

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Your GM must spring a bunch of craziness on you when sleeping etc - I generally just have a masterwork chain shirt I wear for sleeping, and I don't think I've ever sprung for the Endurance feat.

Not the current one, but I keep my guard up due to a former DM.

If you sleep in medium armor, you wake up fatigued (pretty sure it lasts all day), as per the core rulebook. No charges, no running. It can be a huge problem if unexpected things happen.

Not sleeping in armor can be an issue too, as donning the heavy armor is very time consuming.

I have been debating that the next fighter archetype might use the phalanx fighter archetype, which seems like it doesn't need much armor, just the tower shield. I really like how it lets you wield spears and polearms 1-handed and allows you to brace as an immediate reaction. Lots of potential there.


mithril heavy armor only needs heavy armor proficienc, for all other purposes its medium armor, so with the endurance feet and mithril heavy armor you can sleep in heavy. thought that should be pointed out

Scarab Sages

Okay, wow. Used the PC in a game. DM of 4 swings, DM hits me 3 times. On the third hit, I ask, what are you rolling where AC 36 is so easy to hit?

Apparently, he was thinking the increased crit threat range on a weapon also means increased auto-hits. Yeah...

Last hit got discounted.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Okay, wow. Used the PC in a game. DM of 4 swings, DM hits me 3 times. On the third hit, I ask, what are you rolling where AC 36 is so easy to hit?

Apparently, he was thinking the increased crit threat range on a weapon also means increased auto-hits. Yeah...

Last hit got discounted.

My GM did this when I had high AC... I then used improved crit with a falchion when he said that confirming and 20 only auto-hit weren't rules that were being used.

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