it is easy to reskin psionics as magic, it could easily be called spirit magic, occult magic or whatever, it is simply magic with a spell point system. and even if you can't detach the mechanics from the name, there was this odd sect of nepalese bhuddists that were allegedly some of the first known psionicists and psionics works well in a far eastern or bhuddist inspired setting, or even in most animistic settings under the reskin of "Spirit Magic"
The whole 'lightning' thing is if you're trying to get it to flow through unnatural processes, like long copper wires, repeatedly. Natural ores, nervous systems, alchemy and magic would naturally avoid the whole debacle.
AI's that are disrupted by malfunctioning electrical circuits, then spontaneously 'reset' by a magical surge in the wrong way makes for a great reason for spontaneous free will and craziness, too.
==Aelryinth
That's the thing...my group would be like "why are copper wires (a natural element) not natural, but electricity through unprocessed ores works? Why isn't the nervous system effected?"
So no doubt it works for you, but my group would probably just get into a giant philosophical debate over natural vs unnatural, or try to nitpick holes in the situation
Turning something natural into something unnatural has always had an anti-magic shtick to it. That's how the whole trope with Cold Iron and Roman Science vs Celtic Druids and that shtick starts.
Copper is not purified to a pure metal and drawn out to fine wires in nature. It exists in harmony and crystal in the stone. The very thing that lets you call it 'copper' now removes it from Nature and makes it Science.
So, being on the periodic table isn't what does it. It's the 'natural state' which is key. And that's as subjective as you want to make it. Spider silk duplicated by artificial processes will rot and die...it's not natural, the magic isn't clinging to it.
You could say it's the difference between druidic and arcane magic, or alchemy and arcane magic. The former bring out the natural properties of something and give it strength. The latter forces/instills magic into something, even that which would normally not be magical.
==Aelryinth
The whole 'lightning' thing is if you're trying to get it to flow through unnatural processes, like long copper wires, repeatedly. Natural ores, nervous systems, alchemy and magic would naturally avoid the whole debacle.
AI's that are disrupted by malfunctioning electrical circuits, then spontaneously 'reset' by a magical surge in the wrong way makes for a great reason for spontaneous free will and craziness, too.
==Aelryinth
That's the thing...my group would be like "why are copper wires (a natural element) not natural, but electricity through unprocessed ores works? Why isn't the nervous system effected?"
So no doubt it works for you, but my group would probably just get into a giant philosophical debate over natural vs unnatural, or try to nitpick holes in the situation
Turning something natural into something unnatural has always had an anti-magic shtick to it. That's how the whole trope with Cold Iron and Roman Science vs Celtic Druids and that shtick starts.
Copper is not purified to a pure metal and drawn out to fine wires in nature. It exists in harmony and crystal in the stone. The very thing that lets you call it 'copper' now removes it from Nature and makes it Science.
Actually, copper, like gold, can naturally occur as inclusions ("nuggets") in other rocks, which is one of the reasons that ancient metalworking relied on copper and copper alloys (brass, bronze) before iron was recognized as a stronger and more common metal. The whole "iron vs. magic" (i.e., science vs. nature) arose in large part because iron was not considered a "naturally occurring" metal (requiring smelting and other purification), even though various iron ores were known of (including fool's gold).
[EDIT] Meteorites were one of the main sources of "pure" (actually a naturally formed iron-nickel alloy) iron before the ores were recognized. Which actually added to the "unnatural" mystique, as they fell from the sky.
Iron occurs in lumps, too, particularly in peat bogs. That's how the first iron swords came about in Europe.
Yet when you mix the iron with a little carbon, they became something more...steel, the original 'cold iron'. The true weapon of science and man.
Lots of things occur in nature. Yet when lifted out of nature and put through a process, they become scientific and technological. Druids and alchemy can work with stuff in a natural state. When you process and refine it, druidism becomes unusable, and alchemy often so, unless its a part of the alchemical process.
So, 'natural state' is the key point. Processing/refining removes the natural state, because that's what is required to push tech forwards.
So, lightning, for instance, would likely follow the path of least resistance if you had natural veins of copper/quartz/gold in the walls around you. If they were wires of copper, the elemental energy, no longer in harmony with the metal, would try to leap free of the confinement, and you'd start frying stuff.
===Aelryinth
Probably because this crowd likes answers that are hard coded in RAW, answers to beat your GM with, and that's not how White Wolf's Storyteller system rolls.I'm surprised that after the thread has gone on this long that nobody has brought up White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension (from their Old World of Darkness). Magic vs Science (actually Magic Users vs the Technocratic Union) was the big thing there.
And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?
There was interest, a lot of interest judging from the attendence at the only public showing that was ever done. The only reason the MMO didn't get off the ground was that IT WAS NEVER DEVELOPED. The 10 year process is a history of development mismangement by the company that Ryan Dancey was working for at the time.And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?Probably because this crowd likes answers that are hard coded in RAW, answers to beat your GM with, and that's not how White Wolf's Storyteller system rolls.I'm surprised that after the thread has gone on this long that nobody has brought up White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension (from their Old World of Darkness). Magic vs Science (actually Magic Users vs the Technocratic Union) was the big thing there.
One succeeded but the other failed. If you want attribute that to the ability to manage a setting by the property owners well... that speaks volumes as well.
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I would say because people don't want to have to put thought in to how to divide Tech/Magic. To me all the school of magic differ and an anti magic zone shouldn't work for Divine, I wouldn't even call Divine Magic "magic."
Divine Magic should be more like spirituality, not called magic, it just feels like they are lumping it into a pool to save brain power.
Same with Druids, their is nature power.
Arcane is magic because it has always been and always will be.
Psionics isn't magic because it is of the mind, I know that arcane uses the mind but it is more a memory thing that pure will power alone.
Tech can be an entirely different thing because maybe the smart people (with a high int as well) just can't get the way arcane is so steeped in memorizing sigils and in the box thinking. They want to push the boundaries to take away from the power of magic and want to make it so every (wo)man can have the same amount of power.
Magic A is Magic A. The source of the Magic, whether Arcane, Divine, or Psionic doesn't suddenly make it "not Magic".
And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?
It's almost like tabletop rpgs are a niche community that only has name that resonates in pop culture, and the products released under that umbrella are massively more likely to succeed that the ventures of any other company.
And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?It's almost like tabletop rpgs are a niche community that only has name that resonates in pop culture, and the products released under that umbrella are massively more likely to succeed that the ventures of any other company.
Pathfinder does quite well for itself. And aren't they going to be launching an MMO in the future? I think this really comes down to general dislike for White Wolf's rules.
Most popular? Of their time? Citation needed. I'm not saying you are wrong to like it mind you, but it is generally disliked outside it's core players. This is getting off topic though, my point was that the magic tech setting of Eberron was more popular and embraced then the Tech v. Magic angle of Mage.
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Pathfinder does quite well for itself. And aren't they going to be launching an MMO in the future? I think this really comes down to general dislike for White Wolf's rules.And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?It's almost like tabletop rpgs are a niche community that only has name that resonates in pop culture, and the products released under that umbrella are massively more likely to succeed that the ventures of any other company.
Yes, the game that is purposefully backwards compatible with a previous edition of D&D who's core rules were available for free for anyone to use, advertised itself as a continuation of that game, drew the majority of its initial audience from 3.5 players who wanted an update and not the total rebuild that 4e offered, and offers all of its rules content for free online is doing quite well right now.
Obviously Pathfinder's success is tied directly to the quality of its rules.
Pathfinder does quite well for itself. And aren't they going to be launching an MMO in the future? I think this really comes down to general dislike for White Wolf's rules.And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?It's almost like tabletop rpgs are a niche community that only has name that resonates in pop culture, and the products released under that umbrella are massively more likely to succeed that the ventures of any other company.Yes, the game that is purposefully backwards compatible with a previous edition of D&D who's core rules were available for free for anyone to use, advertised itself as a continuation of that game, drew the majority of its initial audience from 3.5 players who wanted an update and not the total rebuild that 4e offered, and offers all of its rules content for free online is doing quite well right now.
Obviously Pathfinder's success is tied directly to the quality of its rules.
Anyone else could have done that via the OGL. Even White Wolf. So... not sure what your point is? That Paizo is very good at marketing?
Anyone else could have done that via the OGL. Even White Wolf. So... not sure what your point is? That Paizo is very good at marketing?
My point was that when talking about success or word of mouth, you can't separate Pathfinder's success (or much anything really), from D&D. Paizo not a very good retort to the claim that tabletop games are a niche game market, and that the quality of a game's ruleset is not directly tied to the game's success.
Why Do So Many People View Science and Magic As Incompatible?
Cause magic do anything except instill interest in science.
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Pathfinder does quite well for itself. And aren't they going to be launching an MMO in the future? I think this really comes down to general dislike for White Wolf's rules.And probably the reason it wasn't popular enough to get the MMO off the ground. Of course, the magic tech setting Eberron could. Coincidence?It's almost like tabletop rpgs are a niche community that only has name that resonates in pop culture, and the products released under that umbrella are massively more likely to succeed that the ventures of any other company.
More people are likely to identify the term "Pathfinder" with a movie about a Viking living among Native Americans than with a D&D-knockoff.
And they are a tiny minority compared to the ones who identify it with the SUV.
Pathfinder is doing quite well for itself...IN A TINY NICHE COMMUNITY.
As for Pathfinder Online....well, while it might actually launch, that's not the same thing as being successful. I seriously doubt it ever becomes the next Wold of Warcraft, Everquest, etc. It'll probably be lucky to be the next Secret World - something that a few people play, but not really deserving of the title of massively multiplayer online....more like "pretty big multiplayer online".
For me the problem is reliability, even in a world with magic, things need to be logical (within the logic of the world you're playing in).
Technology evolves because of needs.
- We developed cranes because we need to lift heavy loads to high places. In a world with magic we don't have this "presure" because... levitation. :)
- What do I need a car for if I have spells like teleport oder ghostly carriage
Shadowrun circumvented this dilema by bringing in the magic after the big technological discoverys were made and be keeping magic rare (only 5% of the worlds population is magical active).
If you want to take a look at Earthdawn this problem get even clearer. Magical Flying Airship (no need for airplanes), refrigerators/heaters with magic elements (no mundane need for this) etc.
Magic and Technology can merge, but you need a reliable world which are able to explain theese issues.
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Its just the basic concept as magic as tech as described in the free EN Publishing Santiago setting guide for sci-fi PF. I like hard sci-fi non-D&D games too, its just that while there might be some holes, its a lot easier to work with, without having to learn a entirely new system to describe technology versus magic - since I have some system mastery of PF (why work with a different system?) In such a setting all spells are renamed to sound more sci-fi and are called technical procedures, but mechanically works identical to the spells they represent (Dispell Magic is now EMP Burst). Since magic is tech, there is no magic per se, unless you add psionics to represent a non-tech way to replicate extraordinary activities.
Santiago doesn't have a close approximation of the wizard, they have an engineer which is based off alchemist, and other caster conversions, so I wanted to try a make something that works like a wizard, but looks like a computer programmer/hacker with some hi-tech toys.
I've never been a fan of psionics, but in a sci-fi setting it fits.
And yet, this is what I was getting at-- YMMV, but to me, you're not even trying to run science fiction, you're setting up to run a science-fantasy game. The rules just don't make sense if you're trying to apply any understanding about how technology actually works-- and the convoluted explanations don't help. Whatever Santiago is, to me, and I suspect many others, it doesn't even approach being a setting I'd label science fiction. As far as I can tell, it's about as scientific, well, actually it's less... than Star Wars.
Still might make a fun game, and of course it conveniently has the same rules-- just that the way the world works, it completely blows my ability to suspend disbelief and accept that it's "science" as I'd expect from decent science fiction-- on the other hand, it is "Science!" as I'd enjoy reading about in Phil & Kaja Foglio's "Girl Genius".
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Pathfinder does quite well for itself. And aren't they going to be launching an MMO in the future? I think this really comes down to general dislike for White Wolf's rules.
Eh. I used to play (and quite enjoyed) several of the lines from the old World of Darkness (Werewolf, Mage and Changeling, mainly). However-- management, as part of the problem?
See, the way White Wolf treated their fans, the way they handled wrapping up and shutting down the World of Darkness, the lines they tried to sell about how it was artistically necessary and of course they weren't just going to start up a new World of Darkness-- and then that's exactly what they did...
I will not spend anything on a White Wolf product again. I will not support what's left of the company, or its heirs. I'm done with their games. And it's not so much that I hate the rules, as it is that I have such contempt now for the people behind them.
I suspect that I am far from the only former fan of White Wolf's games who feels that way. Might explain why many of their endeavors have tanked.
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Referring to the original poster's question:
It's not necessarily "knee-jerk." Some prefer a clear delineation between magic and high technology because it allows for an easier acceptance of the "laws" that will govern a particular cosmology. In addition, if the convention is established from the get-go, it's far less objectionable (though not in the least something in which I'm interested). Springing one on the reader after beginning with the other is a classic bait-and-switch ... practically a betrayal.
** spoiler omitted **
I suppose I need to go back and reread Dragonflight now. I thought there was an introduction even in that book, as well as some other little hints here and there, that let you know there was some old tech/science-fiction (or science fantasy) stuff going on underneath the surface the whole time... so I really didn't feel like it was a betrayal when stuff came right out in the open in Dragonquest. I could be misremembering, of course.
Mind you, nowadays there are a lot of things that bother me about Ms McCaffrey and her writings... but "bait and switch" between fantasy and fantasy mixed with science isn't one of them.
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Kay hasn't written sci-fi. I meant between the more historical fiction and historical fantasy. I loved Fionavar, which isn't historical at all. Couldn't get through Tigana. Wasn't impressed by most of the others you mentioned. Did really like the China one. There's a sequel to it that I need to get.
I see the distinction between feeling betrayed and just not liking the mix.
The Fionavar tapestry series was extremely heavily based on the mythology of the British Isles (Irish, Welsh, and Saxon for sure, probably drawing on other pieces as well)... maybe not any hardcore history, but Mr Kay was showing his knowledge of history and mythology even in those works. I rather like the books of his that I've read so far-- especially Tigana and Song for Arbonne.
To answer the OP's question: The problem is often implementation.
For example, most people have no idea the history of firearms; when they think of guns in history Europe, they think of flintlocks that used highly-advanced black powder. They don't think of the typical pistol that blacksmiths often used to test full plate with during its existence. They also often don't think about the fact firearms, cannons, and rocket launchers existed in Europe before full plate was even invented.
Yes, rocket launchers. They're actually the oldest known weaponized form of gunpowder. The French troops led by Joan of Arc used rockets against British troops in 1429. Part of what made full plate so effective is that it stood up rather well against gunpowder weapons of the era. (Plate armor's effectiveness against firearms remained high enough that it was used by some military forces in World War 1.)
However, what most people are used to is the idea that these inventions came long after, due to when they gained wide-spread usage and when plate armor began to fade (rifling and newer artillery made full plate impractical). As such, it tends to be depicted this way in some works of fantasy, despite the fact that having someone shoot a knight in armor with a pistol and having it do nothing would be historically accurate.
So, I am really not that big a fan of how Pathfinder handles firearms. It makes them too powerful, which is a mistake that DnD 3E and 3.5E avoided.
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For me the problem is reliability, even in a world with magic, things need to be logical (within the logic of the world you're playing in).
Technology evolves because of needs.
- We developed cranes because we need to lift heavy loads to high places. In a world with magic we don't have this "presure" because... levitation. :)- What do I need a car for if I have spells like teleport oder ghostly carriage
Shadowrun circumvented this dilema by bringing in the magic after the big technological discoverys were made and be keeping magic rare (only 5% of the worlds population is magical active).
If you want to take a look at Earthdawn this problem get even clearer. Magical Flying Airship (no need for airplanes), refrigerators/heaters with magic elements (no mundane need for this) etc.
Magic and Technology can merge, but you need a reliable world which are able to explain theese issues.
Thing is though historically speaking things tend not to be so cut and dried there's normally a lot of reasons that combine to make things happen. Things may develop slower in a world with magic but there's still plenty of room even in a pathfinder setting for technology to occur.
1) Religious/ruling power Mistrust/suppression of magic.
2) Need for mass production of things to meet demand.
3) Limited numbers of magic users on a countrywide level prompting less effective solutions.
4) A market in the middle/lower class for "magical" benefits at a much lower price than magic items can be sold for.
5) Concern over disruption (accidentally or on purpose) of solely magically driven items e.g the lightning rail during a really bad thunderstorm accelerates to 900mph and tears off the tracks.
6) Magical experiments discover technogical advances that are magic like e.g. The original silver screen and slowly prompt other related sciences.
7) Magical research by wizards and alchemists is scientific enough that they discover other possibilities that can save their magical power while achieving similar effects, similar to 6 but deliberately driven rather than accidental.
8) Research funded by wealthy individuals who want the benefits that can come from magic but can't wield it themselves and don't trust someone else that much.
9) Research done by some lone crackpot who thinks they can make a non-magical power source and succeed.
10) Research to win a prize I.e.as in our history there were rewards for anyone who could prove psychic powers ones offered for anyone who can come up with a non magical way of doing something as proof of concept.
11) Overuse of magic reduces the amount available in the world and thus weakens wizards and other external arcane source casters.
These are just off the top of my head.
at Senko:
Thats what I mean with "reliable world which are able to explain these issues."
If there are reason to exchange magic with technology it's fine, but if not (and PF is not a system with big magic drawbacks) people will always go the easier road.
To merge science and magic in a setting, you have to make it believable. So no "just because!" reasons. ;)
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The rules for "magic" are just a mechanic that describes cool things in the game.
It's the setting itself that determines how those actually come about in the game world.
Maybe it's actually all nanites and magic users know how to manipulate them in certain ways. Most people don't even know nanites exist in the game world, but really high level magic users do. Voila, magic and science together.
Maybe we go back to the sciences that inspired Frankenstein and 40 thousand Leagues under the sea. It's actually all just science being used to create fantastic things that most people think of as magic. Re animation through electricity, damage through chemical reactions.
Maybe it's midichlorians.
Really, the explanation for why it works sets the tone completely. You could quite easily blend magic and science using this rule system
Maybe it's midichlorians.
HERETIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
....Gremlins!...
Seriously though, I think the separation exits in most circles (though I do enjoy magic steampunk and Shadowrun) because magic is seen as an old age thing, where a lot of science and knowlege was either seen as heretical or magic itself, and technology is seen as a new age thing, where knowledge and science is accepted and constantly sought out for its use and application.
In my opinion, I love the idea of magical technology or technical magic, though I can see why some people don't like their "peas touching their potatoes" so to speak.
...Also:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's Three Laws