Killing Orcs toddlers is evil?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

601 to 650 of 657 << first < prev | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Until we get a Dev in here to say otherwise, Orcs are naturally inclined to Chaotic Evil, from birth, by blood, genetically. Because that's what "The Big Book of Orcs" says.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Roger Corbera wrote:

Hello, once my players killed an orcs clans. After clawing through the barbarian chieftain his witch wife and his warrior concubines, they found three orcs toddlers. And the PC barbarian simply killed them.

Considering orcs are naturaly evil, that's not an evil act, but they were small kids, anyway.
So it was plague control or terrible crime?

If Orcs are naturaly evil in your game ?? If so, then it was not an evil act.

If orcs are not naturaly evil, but just evil in general, then yes, killing the orc babies ia an evil act.

So it depends on the Dungeon Master game, since the DM is the game high god, and depends on how you have set up the morality in your game world.

.....................

Real world, killing innocent kids, is consider evil. Yet many a crusader did it, in the name, of King, country, and god. And many still do it, to this day, in the name of Race, Religion, and Country.

.....................

Anyway, the D&D alignment system, is a goal to strive toward, not something most player character are or will achieve. Most player, only need to show that they are trying to work toward there alignment most of the time, and should not be a straight jack that they are stuck with................ except being Cleric, and Paladins who get there power from the DM, and who can lose them at ANY TIME, the DM, feel like it.

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:
Until we get a Dev in here to say otherwise, Orcs are naturally inclined to Chaotic Evil, from birth, by blood, genetically. Because that's what "The Big Book of Orcs" says.

Yes they are, but until they actually commit an Evil act they are innocent and killing the innocent is an Evil act. Because that's what "The Big Book of Pathfinder Rules" says. Besides, being Evil doesn't mean you've done or will do something deserving of capital punishment.


But Killing people is something deserving of capital punishment, and killing is something Orcs do for little to no reason, naturally.

So they should all die.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PrinceRaven wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Until we get a Dev in here to say otherwise, Orcs are naturally inclined to Chaotic Evil, from birth, by blood, genetically. Because that's what "The Big Book of Orcs" says.
Yes they are, but until they actually commit an Evil act they are innocent and killing the innocent is an Evil act. Because that's what "The Big Book of Pathfinder Rules" says. Besides, being Evil doesn't mean you've done or will do something deserving of capital punishment.

So when Orc adolescent curb stomps and kills little Timmy, then adolescent Orc is evil and should be what? Imprisoned in jail? Put on Trial? Forgiven and slapped on the Wrist? Killed?

I'd say he should never have been adopted in the first place.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In other words, ask your GM what Orcs are like in his version of Golarion, preferably before you've slaughtered all the parent Orcs and are left with only Orclings.

Given the diversity of opinions here, the only way to avoid assumption clash is to ask out of character.

I suspect the canonical answer is what I consider the worst possibility: It is evil to kill the innocent Orclings and if you turn them over to an orphanage (or try to raise them yourself) it will most likely, but not inevitably, end in tragedy. Which is a really lousy trap to be put in, so don't do that. All you GMs out there contemplating it, don't do it. Avoid setting up the situation where entire orc villages need to be slaughtered.


The way Orcs are depicted in Golarion, I can't think of any reasonable solution but to slaughter all of them. They're just horrible about everything.

Liberty's Edge

Let's actually read this section in order, shall we?Not bits of it arranged differently:

Orcs of Golarion wrote:

Ferocity:

To many, the defining characteristic of orcs is the ferocity that makes them such feared raiders and warriors. Anger is an orc’s constant companion, what they refer to as “fire in the belly and the blood.” Sometimes it is a banked glow, ready to flare when fresh fuel is thrown in the fire. In battle, it is a blazing rage. Orcs are dominated by their passions, and their greatest passions are to lash out, to kill, and to roar their victory for all to hear.

Everything about orcs as a race is painted with the blood-red palette of their ferocity. They have little to no patience for anything, and are more likely to smash a complex project to pieces than they are to complete it. They believe that pain is the greatest teacher, and care little for words that sit coldly on a page. Challenges provoke their ire, and they are most alive when unleashing the fury that builds within them. An orc who is not fighting, raging, or roaring in either anger or laughter is most likely spent and sprawled out, snoring with the same savageness.

Though much of this furious behavior is enforced by orc culture, it cannot be denied that those rare orcs raised apart from their kind, even from childhood, are often still filled with the same animal rage. All it takes is a momentary annoyance or minor frustration to drive an orc to murderous fury. Their terrible ferocity makes it all but impossible for there to be any lasting peace with orcs. Sooner or later, even if they are cowed by the strength of a greater power, something will send orcs into a rage, and then blood will be spilled.

So...that's the whole section. To me, that reads like the bits on 'murderous fury' and 'blood will be spilled' apply to Orcs as a whole, not specifically to those raised apart from their culture. Indeed, to me, that reads like the only sentence dealing with non-Orc raised Orcs is as follows:

Orcs of Golarion wrote:
Though much of this furious behavior is enforced by orc culture, it cannot be denied that those rare orcs raised apart from their kind, even from childhood, are often still filled with the same animal rage.

Emphasis mine. With the sentences thereafter returning to the savagery of Orcs in general (and thus primarily those raised as Orcs), not being specific to those who are raised outside their culture.

Am I right? Based on the text alone, who knows? I could be, or not. Based on the existence of canonical non-Evil Orcs? I think I'm right.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:

In other words, ask your GM what Orcs are like in his version of Golarion, preferably before you've slaughtered all the parent Orcs and are left with only Orclings.

Given the diversity of opinions here, the only way to avoid assumption clash is to ask out of character.

I suspect the canonical answer is what I consider the worst possibility: It is evil to kill the innocent Orclings and if you turn them over to an orphanage (or try to raise them yourself) it will most likely, but not inevitably, end in tragedy. Which is a really lousy trap to be put in, so don't do that. All you GMs out there contemplating it, don't do it. Avoid setting up the situation where entire orc villages need to be slaughtered.

Agree 100%! Like I said earlier, just because you know more about the setting does not mean you're right. If the DM created his universe without thinking of Orcs of Golarian, then it may as well not be cannon.

Ask out of character. Ask him for "common sense." We don't live in the DMs world, but our characters do. Our characters aren't so uneducated, most of the time, that they wouldn't know what to do in the situation. Especially Paladins! A Paladin should never be able to willingly commit an act that would make him fall without being told it would make him fall beforehand. They've been training and studying for years and should know the "Shall and Shall Nots" of there oath.

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:

But Killing people is something deserving of capital punishment, and killing is something Orcs do for little to no reason, naturally.

So they should all die.

Yes, murder may indeed be deserving of capital punishment. So if the orc toddlers grow up to attempt or commit murder you may be justified in killing them then, just like members of any other sentient race capable of making their own moral decisions.

It may be pragmatic to kill the orc toddlers, as more likely than not they will end up causing more harm than good. But pragmatism and Evil are not mutually exclusive.


Orcs of Golarion wrote:

Though much of this furious behavior is enforced by

orc culture, it cannot be denied that those rare orcs raised
apart from their kind, even from childhood, are often
still filled with the same animal rage. All it takes is a
momentary annoyance or minor frustration to drive an
orc to murderous fury . Their terrible ferocity makes it all
but impossible for there to be any lasting peace with orcs.
Sooner or later, even if they are cowed by the strength of
a greater power, something will send orcs into a rage, and
then blood will be spilled.

Why would Paizo write something like this? They've condemned an entire race to be nothing but XP fodder for players. This makes it clearer then ever I must homebrew away this tendency, and risk offending players who expect evil orcs.


When dealing with situations like these, I ask myself one question: "What Would Batman Do?"

Silver Crusade

Barong wrote:
Orcs of Golarion wrote:

Though much of this furious behavior is enforced by

orc culture, it cannot be denied that those rare orcs raised
apart from their kind, even from childhood, are often
still filled with the same animal rage. All it takes is a
momentary annoyance or minor frustration to drive an
orc to murderous fury . Their terrible ferocity makes it all
but impossible for there to be any lasting peace with orcs.
Sooner or later, even if they are cowed by the strength of
a greater power, something will send orcs into a rage, and
then blood will be spilled.
Why would Paizo write something like this? They've condemned an entire race to be nothing but XP fodder for players. This makes it clearer then ever I must homebrew away this tendency, and risk offending players who expect evil orcs.

Homebrew away brother. D&D has a long tradition of certain races or a sub-group of a race that were evil...all day, everyday. At some point R.A. Salvatore changed that somewhat for the Drow and we got to know Drizzt and his father and saw the potential for something else. Hell, even one of Drizzt's sisters wasn't completely darkside in the early years of his life, but she ended up the fully stereotypical Drow Priestess of badness anyway.

Grand Lodge

I've got it. Give the orc toddlers a pet bunny. If they brutally torture and kill it, they're evil, and thus fair game.

Also, I bet Razmiran could mop the floor with Belkzen.


Deadbeat Doom wrote:
When dealing with situations like these, I ask myself one question: "What Would Batman Do?"

Well, Batman can be a little... off.

Silver Crusade

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

I've got it. Give the orc toddlers a pet bunny. If they brutally torture and kill it, they're evil, and thus fair game.

Also, I bet Razmiran could mop the floor with Belkzen.

Don't have a Druid in the group when doing that, it could get....uncomfortable ;)

Grand Lodge

Then the druid can wildshape as a bunny, and if the orc toddlers get too rough he can change back with confirmation that they hold no respect for life.

Silver Crusade

Works for me.


Deadmanwalking wrote wrote:

Knockoff wrote: wrote:

You are right about the sociopathy bit. Sociopaths act the way they do because of environmental factor (to my knowledge). Orcs are predisposed to violent antisocial(by human standards) behavior for biological reasons. I was just using dramatic language. my fault.

Actually...the set of traits often called sociopathy is pretty much inborn. No, my point was that it was an entirely different seet of inborn traits than those mentioned as being displayed by Orcs.

This is the last I'll say on the sociopath thing.

Orcs of Golarion wrote wrote:

While orcs are often cast as savages and half-beasts, they
do possess at least one remarkable physiological advantage:
their incredible capacity for mental strain. Orcs are never
shocked by sights of violence, never worn down by endless
campaigning, and never haunted by dreams of vicious
deeds. While part of this psychological endurance comes
from exposure to myriad affronts and terrors throughout
their young lives, orcs seem to possess a more economical
memory than most races. This has little to do with their
ability to retain information, though—quite the opposite
in fact. Rather, orcs possess a seemingly voluntary, though
potentially subconscious, ability to forget. Thus, crippling
failures, moments of terror, and unwanted emotion can simply be shoved out of mind, allowing lusts and violent
pride to dominate. This isn't to say that orcs forget every
slight or pain—few creatures hold grudges like orcs—but
traumas that might impede their ability to survive and fight
on are dismissed, giving orcs a predator-like confidence in
their own abilities and willingness to endlessly fight on.

emphasis added with italics

1)Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

2)Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by physical fights or assaults.

both these characteristics are present in orcs. Both are criteria for antisocial behavior, the cornerstone of sociopathy. They are definitly "inborn traits". Also, can you imagine raising three kids like this? It wouldn't end well.

Note the use of the word never, implying no exceptions as written (though some very rare instances are likely).

I am willing to concede that the phrase "murderous fury" does not necessitate fury coupled with actual murder. The other part of the passage is more literal.

Orcs of Golarion wrote wrote:

Though much of this furious behavior is enforced by
orc culture, it cannot be denied that those rare orcs raised
apart from their kind, even from childhood, are often
still filled with the same animal rage. Their terrible ferocity makes it all but impossible for there to be any lasting peace with orcs.
Sooner or later, even if they are cowed by the strength of
a greater power, something will send orcs into a rage, and
then blood will be spilled.

The paragraph cannot be read as a reference to all orcs. Its all one paragraph about fundamental orc nature outside of orc culture. The object in the first two sentences is "rare orcs raised apart from their kind". The third sentence is an axiom based on the first two sentences and what has already been stated about fundamental orc nature, outside of orc culture.

There is no room for interpretation here. This passage clearly states that the rage/blood spilling will happen. Even intelligent animals display predictable behavior to some degree. This prediction of orc behavior comes straight from canon. We can see from this passage (and the one above it) several traits and behaviors common to all orcs. Even if it were referring to every orc (it isn't), the language is pretty ironclad.

It passage does not imply a total absence of free will in all aspects of orc life. It does offer a predictability so strong that language stressing total inevitability was used. The statistical significance of orcs, raised outside orc culture, who do not display violent rage at some point in their lives is so small it did not warrant mention. I can imagine a scenario in which all three orc children grow up to be as docile as any human. This is the least likely possible outcome.

Neutral orcs are just as capable of violence against defenseless people as the barbarian.

Also, I can't find an example of a neutral orc tribe. Could you please cite one?

If the barbarian in OP was aware of the predictability of violence in orcs, his actions almost certainly prevented future violence (with present violence). His act was decidedly not evil.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I will re-iterate, yes, slaughtering innocent orc toddlers is pragmatic, but nothing says an Evil act being pragmatic makes it not an Evil act.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It wouldn't surprise me that much if Inner Sea Races tones down the Orc description somewhat, leaving them as pretty nasty but less innately so.

Inner Sea Gods did something similar with Erastil and a few other gods.


Honestly, how is this even an argument?

I have neither the time nor inclination to look back through 500 posts & see if this was brought up before. But it seems like a no-brainer in any event.

Nevertheless, on the off chance it actually need be said aloud:

Murdering toddlers, orc or otherwise, is Evil-as-F**k!

Toddlers may be evil sometimes. But they're still innocent, for God's Sake!

And, again, on the off chance that there's actually someone here who would argue that it's like going back in time & killing Hitler when he was a baby....& putting aside the whole knowing the future thing....then I guess you must think it'd be even better if....

Since this wouldn't be killing anyone, after-all....

You just cut the toddler's hands & feet off....Maybe gouge out his / her eyes & slice off his / her ears while your at it.

That way, the orc &/or Hitler can't grow up to do any harm to anyone anyhow....Right?

Either this whole thread is just plain stupid....or I'm too wasted right now....or both.

Sovereign Court

10 foot pole... don't go near those toddlers... only worthy adult orc warriors who have passed their teenage boar hunt rite of passage are allowed in the orc camp!


Yes, someone has already ranted about real world morals, confused the issue and missed the point. Thanks for covering all the bases though.


So because someone said it before it's what?.....

Untrue?

Does that mean that if 50 people "rant" about it, it's fifty times more untrue?

So if....

One million people "rant" about how the world is spherical, you, DominusMega-whatever, happen to know better because they're all just....

"Ranting"

or something?


It's not untrue because you ranted, it's untrue because Pathfinder is not reality. Morals and Ethics in pathfinder are not real world morals and ethics. What you think is good and evil in real life has no bearing on what is actually Good or Evil, because lowercase good and evil are personal ideas with no true definition.


Yeah, I know....

Morality is relative.

Talk about having heard it all before....

Liberty's Edge

Clearly we must go to the rulebook to discover the answer.
Oh, look at that, killing the innocent is an Evil act.
That settles that, is the thread over now?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PrinceRaven wrote:

Clearly we must go to the rulebook to discover the answer.

Oh, look at that, killing the innocent is an Evil act.
That settles that, is the thread over now?

Are Orc children innocent if they naturally murder people for annoying them?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

If the orc babies are rogues, we know they will not grow up to harm anyone. Otherwise, they could be dangerous.

Seriously, is leaving them to starve or die of exposure then better? Once again there are many sides to this argument, but I would consider a quick, merciful death better than leaving them uncared for.


PrinceRaven wrote:

Clearly we must go to the rulebook to discover the answer.

Oh, look at that, killing the innocent is an Evil act.
That settles that, is the thread over now?

Nope, because that was never the question. The question is: are orc toddlers innocent, or are they evil?

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:

Clearly we must go to the rulebook to discover the answer.

Oh, look at that, killing the innocent is an Evil act.
That settles that, is the thread over now?
Are Orc children innocent if they naturally murder people for annoying them?

Do you have any proof that these orc toddlers have done so? Or are you not condemning them not for their actions, but for their race? Do you not care about the freedom, dignity or life of these innocent children?

I'd like to point out that under Lawful Evil it says "A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion... He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank."

Fergurg wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:

Clearly we must go to the rulebook to discover the answer.

Oh, look at that, killing the innocent is an Evil act.
That settles that, is the thread over now?
Nope, because that was never the question. The question is: are orc toddlers innocent, or are they evil?

Innocent (adj): Not guilty of a crime or offence.

Innocent (noun): An innocent person, a young child.

It seems to me that the barbarian in question has no reason to believe they are guilty of a crime or offence and every reason to believe they are young children.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Orcs don't have freedom, honestly. They naturally murder things that bug them. Even when not raised in Orc culture. They are born that way, no choice. Naturally Evil.

Is killing Demons before they do anything Evil? They just spawned from the depths of the Abyss and my paladin snipes them with no hesitation. Evil?


When's the last time you ran into demon toddlers?

Sovereign Court

Samduc Dawnbringer wrote:
If the orc babies are rogues, we know they will not grow up to harm anyone. Otherwise, they could be dangerous.

ROTFLMAO


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Demon was just made. He hasn't done anything wrong. Paladin falls?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I snuck into a drow orphanage and let Drizzt Do'urden live. It turns out I made the right decision.

An orc will end up evil 95% or more of the time. With no further information, the greater good is served by not waiting around to see if they grow up to be paladins.

I tried to raise an owlbear once. It didn't turn out well.


You didn't answer my question. Why should I answer yours?

But just to show you that I'm the better man, Dominus-whatever:

That depends on exactly how the demon was "made." If he was made by virtue of carving the eyes out of children he sexually abused during his life on earth....even though he's done nothing since adopting his new form....Then the paladin is quite safe.

Grand Lodge

Peter Green wrote:
When's the last time you ran into demon toddlers?

Once, about two years ago in Jalmeray. Turns out Vudra really is the kingdom of the impossible.

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:
Orcs don't have freedom, honestly. They naturally murder things that bug them. Even when not raised in Orc culture. They are born that way, no choice. Naturally Evil.

From what I've read it seems more like a predisposition than an "always". Words like "often" and "most" come up quite a lot when describing orc behaviour.

Quote:
Is killing Demons before they do anything Evil? They just spawned from the depths of the Abyss and my paladin snipes them with no hesitation. Evil?

Demons don't have the ability to make moral decisions, they are literally Evil given form, raised from the souls of evil beings sent to the Abyss. Plus your Paladin isn't even killing them, he's just sending them back to their home plane.


Orcs don't have much of an ability to make moral decisions if you read the quoted passages. They kill people no matter how they're raised.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So, why don't Orcs have the Evil Subtype in their statblock then?

All of that implies that they should have it since they are supposedly Always Evil.


Icyshadow wrote:

So, why don't Orcs have the Evil Subtype in their statblock then?

All of that implies that they should have it since they are supposedly Always Evil.

I've FAQ'd you post for the benefit of the devs. I hope we can get this resolved ASAP.


PrinceRaven wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

But Killing people is something deserving of capital punishment, and killing is something Orcs do for little to no reason, naturally.

So they should all die.

Yes, murder may indeed be deserving of capital punishment. So if the orc toddlers grow up to attempt or commit murder you may be justified in killing them then, just like members of any other sentient race capable of making their own moral decisions.

It may be pragmatic to kill the orc toddlers, as more likely than not they will end up causing more harm than good. But pragmatism and Evil are not mutually exclusive.

If you spare the orc toddlers, you are responsible for every innocent life they later take. If those lives are more than the number you'd have killed, the Good act would have been to kill them to save the lives of better people.


So why not extrapolate that out to everyone here on earth, Oly? Suppose, for example, there was a race here in The USA that committed murder at, say for example, ten times the normal rate (according to FBI crime statistics)?

Are you suggesting we kill all those toddlers as well?

Talk about prophylactics!


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lots of Stuff

You mentioned a few non-Evil Orcs on Golarion a few times, canonical ones.

Could you cite some sources to those? It would help with the argument you're making.


Peter Green wrote:

So why not extrapolate that out to everyone here on earth, Oly? Suppose, for example, there was a race here in The USA that committed murder at, say for example, ten times the normal rate (according to FBI crime statistics)?

Are you suggesting we kill all those toddlers as well?

Talk about prophylactics!

Evil doesn't exist irl. What does exist is evil. You can't prove or quantify evil in reality. You can in Pathfinder. It has effects that can be measured and recorded. That's why your comparison is meaningless.


Peter Green wrote:

So why not extrapolate that out to everyone here on earth, Oly? Suppose, for example, there was a race here in The USA that committed murder at, say for example, ten times the normal rate (according to FBI crime statistics)?

Are you suggesting we kill all those toddlers as well?

Talk about prophylactics!

There is no such race, which is why we find the idea abhorrent. We also find it abhorrent because some of the worst historical figures believed similar things about certain races/ethnicities...which is why it's wrong to refer to it like that.

If such a species existed (because it wouldn't be enough like humans to just be a race) then killing the species off would be justified.

In Golarion we know how much more evil and violent orcs are, which can vary by the GM.


So you're saying, Oly & Dominus-Whatever, that the FBI can't quantify murder?

I guess that means you're not, by trade, FBI statisticians.


Peter Green wrote:

So you're saying, Dominus-Whatever, that the FBI can't quantify murder?

I guess that means you're not, by trade, an FBI statistician.

Prove to me that murder is evil. I think it's good.

601 to 650 of 657 << first < prev | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Killing Orcs toddlers is evil? All Messageboards