What's the deal with the rogue hate?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

401 to 450 of 607 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Wait, when did Swashbucklers get added to the bonfire? I thought we were warm enough with rogues, fighters, and monks!
Swashbucklers aren't bad, but they do have two bad saves, and Daring Champion beat them up and took their class features in the same book they were released in.

I'm getting the feeling that Paizo is doing this on purpose: I'm convinced they will soon release a book that shows how to run a game in "EASY", "NORMAL", and "HARD" mode.

If you take fighter, rogue or monk: -->> HARD MODE: congrats! you gain twice the amound of XPs per encounter and you can get to LEVEL 90 much quicker and you have unlimited raids per day allowed!! :)


Lemmy wrote:
My problem with Swashbucklers is that they fail at Swashbuckling. They simply can't live up to their class description. Instead, they ended up being yet another stationary BSF. They aren't considerably more agile than, say, a Ranger or Slayer with Weapon Finesse.

That's a problem with the base combat mechanic. If you want high mobility in combat, you have to allow characters to move without losing much of their ability to attack.


Guys, suppose I want a ranged rogue. Other the ninja's greater invisibility talent, what else can I do to full-sneak attack with a bow?


Vivisecsionist greater invisibility.


hmmm... interesting, if a bit far from what I've had in mind. Anyway, thanks a lot. I must ask though: are there other ways to make your target consistently flat footed?


There is the shatter defense build, and I think that with a multiclassing to oracle (waves, water sight) you can use smokestick to deny enemies teir dex to AC.

Scarab Sages

Yuukale wrote:
Guys, suppose I want a ranged rogue. Other the ninja's greater invisibility talent, what else can I do to full-sneak attack with a bow?

Goz Mask (or 4 levels of storm druid/one level of waves oracle) + Obscuring mist

Firesight (Ifrit or Flame oracle) + Smokesticks


Shatter defenses sounds nice. Also, smokesticks are nice too.

I just won't go any other class because I'd like to try mixing Monk Flurry (either sohei or zen archer) and Sneak attack.

I think I can pull a "slayer sniper (with weapon training) and sohei monk" - thus getting all the goodies of both, dpr-wise.


The Human Diversion wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I have yet to see any Rogue build that is "broken" (well, at least "broken" in the sense of "too effective", I've seen plenty that are "broken" in the sense of "not functional"). Please, do post them. I'd love to be proven wrong on this matter.

Not trying to prove you wrong - I completely agree with you, just pointing out that I'm not great at building effective characters, but I'm certainly not bad at it.

I have a 9th level PFS halfling rogue with the Scout and Knife Master archetypes. Those are interesting, but I had to replace the most iconic rogue ability, trapfinding, and a pretty useful ability, uncanny dodge, to get them.

He's built with a special boon so he gets +2 to dex in addition to racial bonuses, so he started at a 22 dex. Along the way I've made sure to get him a ghost touch dagger allowing him to sneak attack everything but oozes, swarms, and elementals. I've also gotten him an agile dagger allowing him to deal more damage based on his dex. With various talents and feats I've given him Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Piranha Strike, Shadow Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dagger), Offensive Defense, and Slow Reactions (and those last two can't be used together!). When he uses piranha strike and can sneak attack something he does pretty good damage, 1d3+14 + 5d8, getting on average about 38 damage per hit. That's not too bad, but a good barbarian build can easily out-do that.

He's also got a pretty good armor class, a 27 under "normal" conditions thanks to his high dex and Pathfinder having armor with no upper dex cap, but it cost him - he's spend a good bit on some protection items. While he's quite good at combat, he has a horribly low will save and can easily be taken out of a fight with something that targets will saves. Like I pointed out above, though, he's also lost his ability to find magical traps and has a pretty low perception to find mundane traps. Thanks to his extremely high dex, he can disable...

Post the build. :)

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:

I really do have high hopes that Unchained will help the rogue considerably. I'm not sure what they will do to fix it, but I am waiting patiently to see.

I am however confused about why the barbarian is getting a revamp. The barbarian is probably the strongest class that doesn't get to cast spells. With Beast Totem and Come and Get Me rage powers he is a face wrecking force of doom. And with Spell Sunder he's great at removing magical problems.

It's not a power level issue as I understand it, but a wonky mechanics one. Specifically, I heard (somewhere) that they were unhappy with the 'Barbarians fall unconscious and die due to lost Rage HP' thing, and are having them gain temporary hit points instead. So...I suspect it's stuff like that.

Or maybe what I heard was completely wrong.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I really do have high hopes that Unchained will help the rogue considerably. I'm not sure what they will do to fix it, but I am waiting patiently to see.

I am however confused about why the barbarian is getting a revamp. The barbarian is probably the strongest class that doesn't get to cast spells. With Beast Totem and Come and Get Me rage powers he is a face wrecking force of doom. And with Spell Sunder he's great at removing magical problems.

It's not a power level issue as I understand it, but a wonky mechanics one. Specifically, I heard (somewhere) that they were unhappy with the 'Barbarians fall unconscious and die due to lost Rage HP' thing, and are having them gain temporary hit points instead. So...I suspect it's stuff like that.

Or maybe what I heard was completely wrong.

Interesting. I'm interested to see what the final product is.

More so for the rogue than the barbarian, but anything that streamlines things is usually a good thing in my book.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I really do have high hopes that Unchained will help the rogue considerably. I'm not sure what they will do to fix it, but I am waiting patiently to see.

I am however confused about why the barbarian is getting a revamp. The barbarian is probably the strongest class that doesn't get to cast spells. With Beast Totem and Come and Get Me rage powers he is a face wrecking force of doom. And with Spell Sunder he's great at removing magical problems.

It's not a power level issue as I understand it, but a wonky mechanics one. Specifically, I heard (somewhere) that they were unhappy with the 'Barbarians fall unconscious and die due to lost Rage HP' thing, and are having them gain temporary hit points instead. So...I suspect it's stuff like that.

Or maybe what I heard was completely wrong.

I wonder how much of that is true, though... After seeing so many needless nerfs to martial options, I'm not discarding the possibility that that's just the excuse they are using to nerf Barbarians.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, if it is just a straight nerf, we just don't use it. We've already got the good Barbarian, after all.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:
I wonder how much of that is true, though... After seeing so many needless nerfs to martial options, I'm not discarding the possibility that that's just the excuse they are using to nerf Barbarians.

That seems really unlikely...and actually borderline impossible. As I understand it, they're setting up the Classes in Unchained so they can still use things like Archetypes designed for the original Class (which seems doable to me). That means that non-corebook Rage Powers are almost certainly still gonna be available in their current form. As is Invulnerable Rager.

That being the case, I'm not sure how they could nerf Barbarian too much. They could mess with superstition and the base stat bonuses I guess, but that's about it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Right now the barbar is a mess of flat stat boosters. It's good at it's job, but I would agree with both the wonky mechanics complaint and just being a boring solution.

I hope unchained comes out with cool feats. If bonus combat feats could become the fighter's best class feature, then I would consider the fighter fixed.

Oh God though, the poor rogue. Sneak attack has horrid problems. Rogues are not actually good at skills. They just happen to get lots of skill points. I really hope they rework that concept from the ground up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I wonder how much of that is true, though... After seeing so many needless nerfs to martial options, I'm not discarding the possibility that that's just the excuse they are using to nerf Barbarians.

That seems really unlikely...and actually borderline impossible. As I understand it, they're setting up the Classes in Unchained so they can still use things like Archetypes designed for the original Class (which seems doable to me). That means that non-corebook Rage Powers are almost certainly still gonna be available in their current form. As is Invulnerable Rager.

That being the case, I'm not sure how they could nerf Barbarian too much. They could mess with superstition and the base stat bonuses I guess, but that's about it.

Doesn't mean they are not gonna try and present it as the more balanced version...

The Barbarian is one of the few martial classes that actually works. Why revise it instead of Fighters, for example? I'm guessing their logic is "Pounce and Superstition? Broken! Let's create a weaker version and imply it's better balanced!".

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I really do have high hopes that Unchained will help the rogue considerably. I'm not sure what they will do to fix it, but I am waiting patiently to see.

I am however confused about why the barbarian is getting a revamp. The barbarian is probably the strongest class that doesn't get to cast spells. With Beast Totem and Come and Get Me rage powers he is a face wrecking force of doom. And with Spell Sunder he's great at removing magical problems.

It's not a power level issue as I understand it, but a wonky mechanics one. Specifically, I heard (somewhere) that they were unhappy with the 'Barbarians fall unconscious and die due to lost Rage HP' thing, and are having them gain temporary hit points instead. So...I suspect it's stuff like that.

Or maybe what I heard was completely wrong.

I wonder how much of that is true, though... After seeing so many needless nerfs to martial options, I'm not discarding the possibility that that's just the excuse they are using to nerf Barbarians.

I'm not really sure how this book could be a nerf when the stuff in the core rulebook will still be there (and as far as I know wont be getting replaced with this stuff.)


Lemmy wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I wonder how much of that is true, though... After seeing so many needless nerfs to martial options, I'm not discarding the possibility that that's just the excuse they are using to nerf Barbarians.

That seems really unlikely...and actually borderline impossible. As I understand it, they're setting up the Classes in Unchained so they can still use things like Archetypes designed for the original Class (which seems doable to me). That means that non-corebook Rage Powers are almost certainly still gonna be available in their current form. As is Invulnerable Rager.

That being the case, I'm not sure how they could nerf Barbarian too much. They could mess with superstition and the base stat bonuses I guess, but that's about it.

Doesn't mean they are not gonna try and present it as the more balanced version...

The Barbarian is one of the few martial classes that actually works. Why revise it instead of Fighters, for example? I'm guessing their logic is "Pounce and Superstition? Broken! Let's create a weaker version and imply it's better balanced!".

They could remove stat boosters from Rage and make it +hit/damage while "Raging". Weakens two handers, but buffs natural attacks/one handed.

Basically making it simpler.

Change rage powers that are 1/rage to once/encounter so no more rage refresh.


8 people marked this as a favorite.

So...nerfing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah... that sounds like a nerf to me.

What I'd rather see out of unchained than a barbarian rewrite is clean-up duty on little flaws or issues in classes. Let undead barbarians and bards benefit from rage and song. Make Divine Bond supernatural instead of spell-like. Clarify when Favored Enemy applies against targets if you aren't aware of what they are. Give spontaneous casters spell levels at odd levels. Etcetera. Stuff like that (even if you don't agree with the specifics, I'm just talking about the concept of fixing up little issues).

It's a bit late in Pathfinder Unchained's publishing cycle for a change in content like that, and I wouldn't expect them to change content based on what I think would be cool, but I can dream. :p

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:
Doesn't mean they are not gonna try and present it as the more balanced version...

They almost certainly are, yeah. Hopefully, it'll actually be true. :)

Lemmy wrote:
The Barbarian is one of the few martial classes that actually works. Why revise it instead of Fighters, for example? I'm guessing their logic is "Pounce and Superstition? Broken! Let's create a weaker version and imply it's better balanced!".

I'd be willing to bet money you're wrong. They've gone on record as saying that they aren't against buffing Fighters, they just didn't feel a class redesign was the way to go there.

There's been talk about a 'Fatigue Point' system available to all martials allowing them to do cool stuff, but not every round. It'd be something you Feat into, though, making Fighters by far the best at utilizing it. That'd be, to some degree, a buff to Fighters with no actual class change needed.

I'm not sure I agree with that logic, but it definitely speaks to an attitude different from 'the Barbarian is too powerful, let's nerf it', especially when combined with the previously mentioned comments that they weren't aiming for a power level change on Barbarians, just some less wonky mechanics.

Does that mean the Barbarian will necessarily become more powerful or remain equally so? Nope. But it strongly indicates that that's not their goal in making the change.

And, frankly, the fact that they've freely admitted that they are nerfing the Summoner makes it really unlikely they'd be evasive on nerfing something else.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
here's been talk about a 'Fatigue Point' system available to all martials allowing them to do cool stuff, but not every round. It'd be something you Feat into, though, making Fighters by far the best at utilizing it. That'd be, to some degree, a buff to Fighters with no actual class change needed.

Oh, great... Another feat tax... It'll probably cost a bunch of feats too, just so "the Fighter really excels at it!". *sigh*

When will they learn that feat taxes and long feat chains do not buff Fighters! In fact, they nerf the class harder than everyone else!

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Does that mean the Barbarian will necessarily become more powerful or remain equally so? Nope. But it strongly indicates that that's not their goal in making the change.

There is no point in nerfing Barbarians, though... At best, the only nerf it could use, and even that is unnecessary, is changing the Human FCB. I doubt they are just going after Wonky mechanics... Many other classes require more bookkeeping than Barbarians. Hell! Skalds are not being revised!

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And, frankly, the fact that they've freely admitted that they are nerfing the Summoner makes it really unlikely they'd be evasive on nerfing something else.

Doubtful. Summoner is pretty obviously broken and poorly written. It's one of the most powerful classes of the game and one of the easiest to optimize, so it's power became really obvious.

What can I say... Paizo doesn't have a good record of addressing martial/caster disparity. CW was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Change rage powers that are 1/rage to once/encounter so no more rage refresh.

For every ability that has a "per encounter" use or "for combat" duration, the God of Meta-gaming grants wings to one of his angels.

I don't care what they do. As long as it is nothing like that.

Nononononono. Keep the BS meta-language out of my characters abilities.
in-char: "OK guys I can only do that once per encounter."
NPC: "Per what?"
PC: "Per meta concept. This can never be confusing!"


For barbars I could see some changes.

Like instead of superstition, maybe they could get access to a evasion, stalwart, resistances, and a host of immunities.

Rage could give a bonus to strength and temp health. Maybe add a way for them to burn rounds for more temp health.

Instead of pounce, I would like fast movement to go up and barbars to get a way to jump longer and higher. I disagree with whole pounce thing, but I would like for a way for barbars to always be able to get next to a foe within a round.


Lemmy wrote:
What can I say... Paizo doesn't have a good record of addressing martial/caster disparity. CW was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.

CW?


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
What can I say... Paizo doesn't have a good record of addressing martial/caster disparity. CW was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.
CW?

Crane Wing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
here's been talk about a 'Fatigue Point' system available to all martials allowing them to do cool stuff, but not every round. It'd be something you Feat into, though, making Fighters by far the best at utilizing it. That'd be, to some degree, a buff to Fighters with no actual class change needed.

Oh, great... Another feat tax... It'll probably cost a bunch of feats too, just so "the Fighter really excels at it!". *sigh*

When will they learn that feat taxes and long feat chains do not buff Fighters! In fact, they nerf the class harder than everyone else!

From what I've heard it will be one feat, that gives other combat feats additional abilities(like doubling the damage from power attack for a round at the cost of 1 fatigue point or something). I believe it will also include a rule that simply says all martial classes(if not all classes) get the feat for free. So the more combat feats you have the better the ability becomes. This all comes from what I've read and heard in interviews, so things may change, but right now it sounds pretty good for Fighters.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.

Seconded. I like much of their material. They is also a lack of willigness to find a middle ground when it comes to feats.


The CRB is required to play, even if you have Unchained. Unchained, on the other hand, will probably not stand-alone. So, no matter how much they change, how much they nerf, core barbarian will always be an option.

Silver Crusade

memorax wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.
Seconded. I like much of their material. They is also a lack of willigness to find a middle ground when it comes to feats.

I would third this, but martial/caster disparity is a myth, duh.


N. Jolly wrote:
memorax wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.
Seconded. I like much of their material. They is also a lack of willigness to find a middle ground when it comes to feats.
I would third this, but martial/caster disparity is a myth, duh.

Perpetuated by those with an agenda?


The way I see it (and hope it is) is that the new "Unchained" classes won't be replacing any of their prior classes. The CRB is to important to publish "paid for errata" for it. Therefore, the worst that Pathfinder Unchained can do is introduce a terrible Unchained Barbarian that no one will play that also has no options for the CRB Barbarian to steal from. Ideally, in my opinion, the Unchained Barbarian will be a new fresh take on the class that is interesting to use with some new options for CRB Barbarians to pick from. That way, everyone wins.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
memorax wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.
Seconded. I like much of their material. They is also a lack of willigness to find a middle ground when it comes to feats.
I would third this, but martial/caster disparity is a myth, duh.
Perpetuated by those with an agenda?

The trick is of course that *everyone* has an agenda.


Anzyr wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
memorax wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I love Pathfinder, but at this point, I have very little faith in Paizo's ability and willingness to balance the game.
Seconded. I like much of their material. They is also a lack of willigness to find a middle ground when it comes to feats.
I would third this, but martial/caster disparity is a myth, duh.
Perpetuated by those with an agenda?
The trick is of course that *everyone* has an agenda.

Every time I see people mentioning agendas, I can't help but consider the idea of joking about using a notebook instead...

Shadow Lodge

Anzyr wrote:
The trick is of course that *everyone* has an agenda.

Incorrect, they have spellbooks

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
Post the build

Please be kind, like I said, I'm not bad at optimizing, but I'm not good!

the requested build:

Trinkie Swiftblade
Male halfling rogue (knife master, scout) 9 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 134, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 72)
CG Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +11; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 23, flat-footed 17 (+3 armor, +1 deflection, +9 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +1 natural, +1 size)
hp 75 (9d8+27)
Fort +9, Ref +19, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities blade sense, evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 agile cold iron dagger +16/+11 (1d3+10/19-20) or
. . +1 ghost touch mithral dagger +16 (1d3+1/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite shortbow +17/+12 (1d4/×3)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 28, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Piranha Strike, Shadow Strike[APG], Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dagger)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +21 (+25 to jump), Bluff +4, Climb +5, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +21, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Perception +13, Profession (Sailor) +3, Sense Motive +3, Sleight of Hand +26 (+30 to conceal a light blade), Stealth +25, Survival -1 (+1 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +4, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ hidden blade, rogue talents (finesse rogue, offensive defense, slow reactions, weapon training)
Combat Gear antitoxin (4); Other Gear +2 silken ceremonial armor, +1 agile cold iron dagger, +1 ghost touch mithral dagger, mwk composite shortbow, clear spindle ioun stone, dusty rose prism ioun stone, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of striding and springing, cloak of resistance +3, gloves of larceny, handy haversack, ring of protection +1, wayfinder, bedroll, blanket, block and tackle, candle, chain (10 ft.), chalk, crowbar, earplugs, everburning torch, grappling hook, masterwork thieves' tools, paper, silk rope (50 ft.), smoked goggles, waterskin, wrist sheath, spring loaded (2), 137 gp, 9 sp, 5 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.

Alchemical Power Component
Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
Blade Sense +3 (Ex) +3 dodge bonus to AC vs. attacks made against you with light blades.
Combat Reflexes (10 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Hidden Blade +4 +4 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a light blade.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Slow Reactions (Ex) Foes hit by a sneak attack can't make AoO for 1 rd.
Smoked goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Sneak Attack +5d8/+5d4 +5d8 damage with a dagger-like weapon if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).


It has pretty good AC... And that's about it.

Those saves... They hurt my soul!


The Human Diversion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Post the build

Please be kind, like I said, I'm not bad at optimizing, but I'm not good!

** spoiler omitted **...

You are not the person who made a certain claim. I see that now after checking the other post, but since the build is here I may as well look it over.

I can tell you used herolabs but the math is not adding up. I may have missed something however.

BAB 6
dex 9
weapon +1
weapon focus +1

I have a +17 before TWF is accounted for and 15/15/10 after. Herolab has 16/16/11

for the purpose of the calculations I will assume flanking for 17/17/12

52.05 vs CR 9 monsters

with pirahna strike 47.41. If you

Damage is respectable.

Perception and will saves could be higher so it is not bad as an overall build. I would suggest Iron will* as your next feat, but that is just my personal opinion.

*replacing Piranha Strike if retraining is allowed unless you have people to buff you so your to-hit is higher.

edit:
56.9
with Piranha Strike 55.23

Also my first calculations were wrong because I did not give enough damage on Piranha Strike, but this rogue is still better off not using it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Its a halfing, so he gets a +1 to attack from his small size.


Lemmy wrote:

It has pretty good AC... And that's about it.

Those saves... They hurt my soul!

I guess Lemmy did not like the fort save either, but that will save was what really caught my attention, and the perception modifier.

PS: I am biased when it comes to perception modifiers. I got jumped and knocked out 1 time. I now try to avoid it.


Dead Phoenix wrote:
Its a halfing, so he gets a +1 to attack from his small size.

Good catch. I will redo my calculations.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
I guess Lemmy did not like the fort save either, but that will save was what really caught my attention, and the perception modifier.

Oh, dear Sarenrae... That Fort and Will save are just begging to be neutralized... At 9th level, the DC for making a saving throw is a 16 at very least... Having a +9 is really risky, to put it lightly... A +7 is... Well... A good way to become friends with your enemies every battle. :P


According to my loyal DPR Calculator (using AC 23 - average AC for CR 9 creatures):

Average DPR on a full Attack:

No Sneak Attack: 19.32
No Sneak Attack but with Haste: 34.11

Sneak Attack (first hit only): 31.57
Sneak Attack (first hit only) + Haste: 47.24

Flanking: 69.93
Flanking + Haste: 104.85

That's a good damage... The complete focus on Dex gives you decent accuracy and damage. Which is really freaking dangerous with a Will save of +7.

- - -

Just for comparison, a 9th level Ranger with a +3 greatsword, a Belt of Giant Strength +2, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical and Weapon Focus has an average DPR of 45.5 (or 70.0 with Haste), up to 54.25 when flanking (84.0 when flanking + Haste).

That's before spells, Animal Companion and Favored Enemy, though.

EDIT: Oops... Made a mistake. Forgot to add the Ranger's level up increase to Str.

Ranger: 50.96
Ranger + Haste: 84.3

Flanking: 58.8
Flanking + Haste: 94.1


Lemmy wrote:

According to my loyal DPR Calculator:

(using AC 23 - average AC for CR 9 creatures)

No Sneak Attack: 19.32
No Sneak Attack but with Haste: 34.11

Sneak Attack on the first hit: 31.57
Sneak Attack on the first hit + Haste: 47.24

Flanking: 69.93
Flanking + Haste: 104.85

That's a good damage... The complete focus on Dex gives you decent accuracy and damage. Which is really freaking dangerous with a Will save of +7.

Just for comparison, a 9th level Ranger with a +3 greatsword, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical and Weapon Focus has an average DPR of 45.5 (or 70.0 with Haste).

That's before spells, Animal Companion and Favored Enemy, though.

I am only getting 29 points of DPR on the first attack if I don't account for AC. <---Also no haste and no pirahna strike.

The bonus damage is +10. The weapon being a 1d3 is averaging 1.5= 11.5

5d6= 5 x 3.5= 17.5

17.5+11.5=29

1. Did I miss a feat or something else that hands out more damage?

2. Where are you getting animal companions and favored enemy from or were you just comparing it to a ranger?


wraithstrike wrote:

I am only getting 29 points of DPR on the first attack if I don't account for AC. <---Also no haste and no pirahna strike.

The bonus damage is +10. The weapon being a 1d3 is averaging 1.5= 11.5

5d6= 5 x 3.5= 17.5

17.5+11.5=29

1. Did I miss a feat or something else that hands out more damage?

2. Where are you getting animal companions and favored enemy from or were you just comparing it to a ranger?

1- Ah, no... When I say "Sneak attack on the Frist Hit" I mean that's the average DPR of a Full attack if he can only add SA damage on the first hit (e.g.: he caught someone flatfooted). I'll make it clearer.

2- That's just mentioning that the values I got for the Ranger do not include spells, Animal Companion or FE.


Lemmy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I am only getting 29 points of DPR on the first attack if I don't account for AC. <---Also no haste and no pirahna strike.

The bonus damage is +10. The weapon being a 1d3 is averaging 1.5= 11.5

5d6= 5 x 3.5= 17.5

17.5+11.5=29

1. Did I miss a feat or something else that hands out more damage?

2. Where are you getting animal companions and favored enemy from or were you just comparing it to a ranger?

1- Ah, no... When I say "Sneak attack on the Frist Hit" I mean that's the average DPR of a Full attack if he can only add SA damage on the first hit (e.g.: he caught someone flatfooted). I'll make it clearer.

2- That's just mentioning that the values I got for the Ranger do not include spells, Animal Companion or FE.

Ok, I see you are making a ranger to compare to it.

I still don't see how you got 104. If every attack hits he barely reaches 104 even if we just assume average damage and ignore AC.

If he(the rogue) gets 29 DPR for his 3 main hand attacks it gives him 87. His offhand attack does not have the agile enhancement so it comes in at 20 for 107, and that is assuming sneak attack for a full round. I have him at 86.56 with haste and flanking if I actually count AC.


wraithstrike wrote:

Ok, I see you are making a ranger to compare to it.

I still don't see how you got 104. If every attack hits he barely reaches 104 even if we just assume average damage and ignore AC.

If he(the rogue) gets 29 DPR for his 3 main hand attacks it gives him 87. His offhand attack does not have the agile enhancement so it comes in at 20 for 107, and that is assuming sneak attack for a full round. I have him at 86.56 with haste and flanking if I actually count AC.

Oh... I see where I made the mistake... I thought he had ITWF. Only now I realized that's not the case...

And remember that with Flanking + Haste he gets a +3 to attack rolls. That gives a pretty big boost to DPR.


Lemmy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Ok, I see you are making a ranger to compare to it.

I still don't see how you got 104. If every attack hits he barely reaches 104 even if we just assume average damage and ignore AC.

If he(the rogue) gets 29 DPR for his 3 main hand attacks it gives him 87. His offhand attack does not have the agile enhancement so it comes in at 20 for 107, and that is assuming sneak attack for a full round. I have him at 86.56 with haste and flanking if I actually count AC.

Oh... I see where I made the mistake... I thought he had ITWF. Only now I realized that's not the case...

And remember that with Flanking + Haste he gets a +3 to attack rolls. That gives a pretty big boost to DPR.

I added that in, but with your other offhand attack it would add about another 20 getting us close(to your 104) but not the exact same DPR, but 2 or 3 points is not really enough to quibble about. :)


Yeah... Flanking + Haste got me a 89.4 now... Up to 101.7 if he had ITWF. Had a tiny typo on my DPR Calculator.


I think this has been a good discussion.

I like the rogue idea and want it to work. For limited values of "work", it can.

Whatever is done to "Fix" the rogue, I want them to maintain their sneak attack damage bonus as it is. I like the idea of the rogue as a swingy spike-damage kinda guy. When I saw the slayer, I went "meh." I know he is a lot more consistent and with higher BAB and studied target his attacks actually hit. But I want that big pile of D6's.

A lot of things specifically hurt the rogue, either deliberately or not.

In my mind uncanny dodge should never have been included in the game (except possibly for rogues). It's really a legacy from the 1e barbarian class, which was the most broken class in that edition and in that edition it compensated for this by punishing the rest of the party.

The trait system exists mainly to grant class skills to classes that don't normally get them. This drastically reduces the need for rogues or rogue dips. I like traits, but they reduce the value of a class who has skills as one of only two primary features.

My personal houserule archetypes are:

Specialist: Choose two skills. You gain a bonus to those skills equal to 1/2 your rogue level (minimum +1). This ability replaces Trapfinding.

Note: you can use that to simulate trapfinding if you want, though instead of granting a situational bonus it is just a flat bonus, which makes things simpler.

Renaissance Rogue: At 3rd level, a renaissance rogue gains a broad training that enhances his overall training, increasing the class bonus for any rogue class skills by +1. These bonuses rise to +2 when the renaissance rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces Trap Sense.

Keen Striker: At 3rd level, a keen striker gains a better understanding of the position of vulnerable locations on the bodies of her enemies. Whenever a keen striker makes an attack that is eligible for sneak attack damage, her chance to hit increases by +1. These bonuses rise to +2 when the keen striker reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces Trap Sense.

Note: you would need to choose one or the other out of these two.

401 to 450 of 607 << first < prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What's the deal with the rogue hate? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.