Summon Monster VIII question: Elementals

[DKFever]

Alright, Another question about the Summoner here. I"m currently level 15 and was playing last night. My Eidolon ended up getting killed and my GM said we couldn't sleep, so I got to use the Summon Monster ability for the first time so far this campaign.

(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster)

I'm level 15, so I got the level 8 one. I started looking through what it said I could summone, and I started taking a look at the elemental list. At this point in the night we were all a little tired and a little loopy, so I decided to use the level 6 version of the Elemental and summon the 1D4+1 number of them. I chose the Positive Energy huge elemental.

(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elem ental-positive-energy-tohc/positive-energy-elemental-huge-tohc)

Of course I got 5 of them with my roll. We're all at pretty low health at this point, so I basically surround the party with these huge elementals and have them all use the Channel Energy ablity twice each. What I didn't realize is that you can actually kill something with overhealing? I didn't TPK us, thankfully, but it came really, really close lol.

My question is this: Given that everything I did up to this point is legal (I don't know if that's true but it looks good so far I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) does that mean that at level 15, 9 times a day (My Cha mod is +6) I can summon 1d4+1 of these heal bombs and send them out to wreak havoc? If that's the case, I wanted to run some numbers:

say an average of 3 of these guys get summoned. I send them in a little pile out to a group of enemies. All 3 of them use the Channel energy once (Move standard action, ability standard action) That means that that turn they heal themselves and everything around them for 15D6, right? So average of what, 90 HP? These things only have 95, so if those rolls go just a tiny bit high, they explode, dealing an extra 5D8 of healing to everything within 30 ft per elemental?

If I'm reading this correctly, and given just slightly over average rolls, I basically have a 15D6 + 15D8 of healbomb in a 30 ft radius 9 times a day, as a standard action? that I can use to kill NPC's through overhealing?

That seems a bit off, so please let me know what I did wrong, thanks! :D

[Dafydd]

Few things. First, I have never heard of over healing causing death. That might be a house rule of your GM's. If it is, then the above tactic is sound and easily deadly. (I will get to a few things to look into that might pump it up in a minute)

The elementals you summoned are a 3pp creature. If your GM allows them, then go ahead. These are powerful and will turn the tide of any battle.

Now, suggestions to improves this strategy, assuming your GM approves this after a full night's rest.

Superior Summons gives you another creature whenever you summon multiple creatures. That means you get 1d4+2 of those bombs, ie at least 3, maybe as many as 6, usually 4. Augment Summoning gives them a STR and CON boost. I am assuming the DC to resist is CON and not CHA here, but I do not know. If it is, it will be harder for the foes to resist. Also there will be a lower chance of accidental kaboom with the additional HP the elementals will have.

You will also want to use the spells per day to summon the bombs. They will not be around long if your plan is to explode them so the increased duration is not of any use. You will also be able to heal your Eidolon, to help keep it from death.

Edit: just found and read through the elemental, the over healing explosion is part of their ability. Still, the creature is 3rd party, so your GM may still decide to have you leave that one alone.

[Sissyl]

As I understand it, what you get is air, earth, fire or water. Even the lightning, mud, magma and ice elementals are no go. The summon monster lists are very limited. 3PP materials are certainly outside of what was intended.

The overhealing death is from descriptions from D&D of the positive energy plane.

[Sniggevert]

The creature in question is 3rd party content, so it's not Paizo's.

The overhealing bit to explode is specifically for this critter, and the abilities that specifically mention it (i.e. it's Death Throes and Positive Energy ability only). It does not affect the creature's channel energy ability, which it states operates exactly like a cleric's ability of the same name.

I think it was just a little bit of sleep grogginess missing some of the specifics there.

[Devilkiller]

The "overhealing" effect is part of the monster. It doesn't appear that it causes damage though. It just forces a Fort save to avoid exploding. The table with the saving throw DC appears to be missing from the webpage, but I'd guess it should be DC 19 based on the creature's 10 hit dice and Con of 18.

Spamming save or die sounds pretty annoying, but I'd expect that a lot of monsters you'd see around 15th level would make the save. At that point I guess you'd just be dealing with monsters who have twice as many hit points as usual.

Anyhow, I think that a lot of DMs limit the Summon Monster spells to the 4 "classic" elements. I wouldn't fault your DM for deciding to do the same.

[ShoulderPatch]

Sissyl wrote:

As I understand it, what you get is air, earth, fire or water. Even the lightning, mud, magma and ice elementals are no go.

Incorrect. Mostly.

Per RAW, while the Elemental Body line is limited to the core 4, the Summon Monster/Natures Ally spells allow any of the 8 (Paizo) Bestiary elementals. [RAI is underdetemined but it's a known issue that's never been FAQ'd or errata'd so it can't bug them too much.]

Now PFS has a specific PFS only rule that limits SM and SNA summons to the core 4, PFS has more than a few rules meant to aid simplicity for GM's sake, and it isn't a rare house rule. That isn't technically RAW though, those are just Society and House rulings.

Sissyl wrote:

The summon monster lists are very limited. 3PP materials are certainly outside of what was intended.

This is correct. From what I've seen of the 3pp elementals, though I'm sure that's not exhaustive, and comparing them to the B1 and B2 Paizo ones, they seem to range from 'just' "notably better" to "broken". I've never played under a GM that allowed them. If one did I can't imagine they'd let them appear on the SM or SNA tables.

By a strict RAW reading, if the GM just allowed them in his game they'd be let in for SM and SNA... but since to just let them in requires GM permission and a house rule, a wise GM would probably say no to adding them to the list in that same house ruling.

Sissyl wrote:

The overhealing death is from descriptions from D&D of the positive energy plane.

That's what it reminded me of too when I first read it.

[DKFever]

Awesome, thanks for the help guys. After I did this our gm ruled no more, so I can't do it again. It was really funny the first time though >.<

Anyone with experience with a summoner, what's your favorite monster to summon? Now that I can't use these anymore I need to figure out what else to use if my eidolon dies and we really need to kill something.

My other 2 party members are a Mage and a Fighter, respectively.

[ShoulderPatch]

DKFever wrote:

Anyone with experience with a summoner, what's your favorite monster to summon?

Try this thread.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2md44?Best-Summon-Monster-by-level

edit: Forgot (again) how to make the link a clicky but you can cut and paste it and it will take you.