Need help on action economy of a Grenadier


Rules Questions


A friend of mine wants to make a gnome alchemist (grenadier), but I maybe found a flaw either in his build, or in the wording of the ability.

Indeed, Alchemical weapon let you use a move action (then swift, then free action) to imfuse a weapon or a piece of ammunition with an alchemical weapon. Cool stuff.
The problem is, I suspect you need to have the alchemical weapon in hand before using the ability, because nothing is told about drawing it.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me, considering the trade. It makes me think about how poison are hard to use in fight.

Alchemical Weapon:
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist's fire or sneezing powder, as a move action.

This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question. The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, affect additional targets, or benefit from any other effects that specifically affect splash weapons. Any extra damage added is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after being applied if no blow is struck. Infusing a new alchemical item also removes the effect of any alchemical liquid or powder previously applied with this ability. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.

This ability replaces poison resistance.

Didn't find a clear answer to this, so I'm curious.

PS: With the Grenadier archetype attributed to hobgoblins with th new Monster codex, does that mean it's a hobgoblin-only archetype now ? I'm confused.

Edit/PS2: Was there any official answer on the int modifier applied to the imfused weapon ?


Bump!

Scarab Sages

Which version are you using? Should be a near identical one in the monster codex as the one in the Inner Sea World Guide.

Scarab Sages

Mistake, Monster codex and PFS Field Guide.


Hmmm, I think he uses the PFS field guide. I should check, but IIRC, they are totally similar anyway.


nothing is said about the alchemical concoction having to be in a hand either, so presumably it could be in your backpack at home. the only time it came up the consensus was that the act of infusing including drawing the alchemical mixture from a ready bandolier. in actual use the grenadiers (?was there more than one?) I've played with have gone the pre-buff/buff round route with abundant ammo which negates the action economy problems - a scroll of AA costs 25g and the cheapest alchemical concoction for viable infusing (acid) is 10G.

all the monster codex entry means is that writers felt that there should be a place to find archetype other than the PFS Society Field Manual. There is nothing in the monster codex entry listing it as a hobgoblin only archetype.

I'd like to say "yes" and the answer was "yes", but I am unaware of an official ruling on grenadiers getting an INT bonus when using splash weapons which don't splash because they are infused into a weapon or piece of ammo.

Scarab Sages

HectorVivis wrote:

A friend of mine wants to make a gnome alchemist (grenadier), but I maybe found a flaw either in his build, or in the wording of the ability.

Indeed, Alchemical weapon let you use a move action (then swift, then free action) to imfuse a weapon or a piece of ammunition with an alchemical weapon. Cool stuff.
The problem is, I suspect you need to have the alchemical weapon in hand before using the ability, because nothing is told about drawing it.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me, considering the trade. It makes me think about how poison are hard to use in fight.** spoiler omitted **Didn't find a clear answer to this, so I'm curious.

PS: With the Grenadier archetype attributed to hobgoblins with th new Monster codex, does that mean it's a hobgoblin-only archetype now ? I'm confused.

Edit/PS2: Was there any official answer on the int modifier applied to the imfused weapon ?

So, what is the question in the first section? I see the two "PS" questions, but no "?" in the main topic.

For PS1: Grenadier doesn't say hobgoblin only, anywhere in the monster codex. Idea is that Hobgoblins are predisposed to it, but it isn't unique to them.

For PS2: I'm not really sure what the question is. Perhaps you mean the alchemist bonus to splash weapons? That would be gone, as the weapon no longer is splash weapon or does splash damage.


My principal question is simple: do you need to have the alchemical weapon in hands to use the alchemical weapon (su) of the grenadier ?

cnetarian wrote:
nothing is said about the alchemical concoction having to be in a hand either, so presumably it could be in your backpack at home.

Even if it was in your own backpack, the fact it's an Su means it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. So it would be simpler to retrieve + apply the alchemical weapon than to just retrieve it from your bag. That's part of what bothers me.

For the archetypes, I was pretty sure they were bounds to the race they appeared in. It seems to be I was wrong. I probably should have read the "how to use this book?" again. Silly me!

For the Int to damages, it was discussed a lot, and I hoped it was settled.

cnetarian wrote:
AA Stuff

I'll recommend AA to my friend, it's a brillant idea.

Dark Archive

I've been playing a Grenadier for a year or so in a home campaign. My GM says you don't need to have the item in your hand, and I'm inclined to agree. While RAW has nothing to say on the matter, forcing the grenadier to spend actions to draw the consumables before "infusing" the weapon makes the ability nearly worthless. I doubt the intent of a combat-based archetype was to make the character strictly worse at combat. Just my 2cp.

Also, don't expect your DM to allow the Abundant Ammunition thing to work - the spell targets a container and only copies spell effects targeting the container. It should not clone non-magical enhancements affecting the ammunition, such as the Alchemical Weapon bonus. Otherwise you'd see a lot more archers dipping a couple levels for the 3d6 bonus damage per hit (artokus's fire + acid via a hybridization funnel and a wand of AA makes a 50gp consumable that requires only 1 round of buffing for 9+ rounds of death).


Don't know the artokus's fire. Could you give me a link ?
Anyway, you made me discover the hybridization funnel. I find it highly interesting.
For AA, you're probably right.

Still, I think if it could be used all the time, I don't see why bother with the normal alchemist anymore, the trade would be totally amazing.
The most significant downside is you lose brew potion, you still can take it easily with your own feats.

With the hybridizing funnel, it's even more interesting.
I feel it can be an amazing ability for ambush, when you know where and when fights will break, because you still have 1 minute to use your infused weapons. At low level, your damage input at range can augment considerably.


LuniasM wrote:


Also, don't expect your DM to allow the Abundant Ammunition thing to work - the spell targets a container and only copies spell effects targeting the container. It should not clone non-magical enhancements affecting the ammunition, such as the Alchemical Weapon bonus. Otherwise you'd see a lot more archers dipping a couple levels for the 3d6 bonus damage per hit (artokus's fire + acid via a hybridization funnel and a wand of AA makes a 50gp consumable that requires only 1 round of buffing for 9+ rounds of death).

AA replaces non-magical ammo in a container on a per round basis. A purpose built archer is likely firing a least 4 arrows a round at 6 BAB. Using 4 arrows per round requires infusing 4 arrows before casting AA on the quiver for every arrow to get the +3d6, or the equivalent of a 465 GP consumable (4 x Artokus's fire @ 100 GP, 4 x acid flask @ 10 GP, 1 x scroll of AA @ 25 GP). And this would take 4 rounds of buffing to pull off, so that the first infusion would off after 6 rounds of combat.

An archer looking to maximize DPR regardless of cost in buffing rounds could find 2 levels of grenadier a worthwhile dip but it isn't all that easy for archers to make work. It works fine however for keeping the grenadier infusion ability worth something after the first few levels.

Dark Archive

cnetarian wrote:
LuniasM wrote:


Also, don't expect your DM to allow the Abundant Ammunition thing to work - the spell targets a container and only copies spell effects targeting the container. It should not clone non-magical enhancements affecting the ammunition, such as the Alchemical Weapon bonus. Otherwise you'd see a lot more archers dipping a couple levels for the 3d6 bonus damage per hit (artokus's fire + acid via a hybridization funnel and a wand of AA makes a 50gp consumable that requires only 1 round of buffing for 9+ rounds of death).

AA replaces non-magical ammo in a container on a per round basis. A purpose built archer is likely firing a least 4 arrows a round at 6 BAB. Using 4 arrows per round requires infusing 4 arrows before casting AA on the quiver for every arrow to get the +3d6, or the equivalent of a 465 GP consumable (4 x Artokus's fire @ 100 GP, 4 x acid flask @ 10 GP, 1 x scroll of AA @ 25 GP). And this would take 4 rounds of buffing to pull off, so that the first infusion would off after 6 rounds of combat.

An archer looking to maximize DPR regardless of cost in buffing rounds could find 2 levels of grenadier a worthwhile dip but it isn't all that easy for archers to make work. It works fine however for keeping the grenadier infusion ability worth something after the first few levels.

A 6-BAB archer is likely getting 3 attacks at full-BAB and one at -5 that likely won't hit, so they probably won't bother with the 4th arrow. Though that does make things slightly more balanced for multi-shot archers and the like, it simply doesn't work in the first place - the spell copies arrows up to the material they were made with, but does not copy added effects from alchemical weapon because they are not inherent to the ammunition being copied. Special material types, sure, but not added effects. If you have any relevant FAQs I'd love to see them - I want this to work (my character would love the boost) but I just don't see how.

Dark Archive

HectorVivis wrote:

Don't know the artokus's fire. Could you give me a link ?

Anyway, you made me discover the hybridization funnel. I find it highly interesting.
For AA, you're probably right.

Still, I think if it could be used all the time, I don't see why bother with the normal alchemist anymore, the trade would be totally amazing.
The most significant downside is you lose brew potion, you still can take it easily with your own feats.

With the hybridizing funnel, it's even more interesting.
I feel it can be an amazing ability for ambush, when you know where and when fights will break, because you still have 1 minute to use your infused weapons. At low level, your damage input at range can augment considerably.

Here

It's actually 100gp, but still worth it if you can fit crafting into the build. Master Craftsman is great for this purpose. My archer is waiting for Haste, Rapid Shot, and a Conductive bow to make full attacks, so he's using Alchemical Weapon and Explosive Missile to make one attack really hurt. I definitely miss Brew Potion and I don't have the feats to spare for it (archery is feat-intensive) but the trade is still good for a combat alchemist.

Liberty's Edge

personally my grenadier just does one arrow, ghast wretch to a tanglefoot arrow, then attaches a bomb to it. Thats a for sure -4 debuff to my target plus my bomb goes off on a ranged touch attack. I call it a day at that point and dont worry about the iterative attacks until they get closer, at which point throwing the bombs is just fine.


For reference, my friend wants to make a Gnome Gunslinger (Experimental Gunsmith)/Alchemist (Grenadier), who shoot with a gun. He strongly consider taking a level of Master Chemist to add some fun.

For the artokus fire, we don't use Companion stuff, so it seems to lower the amount of damages he can get from the ability.


LuniasM wrote:


A 6-BAB archer is likely getting 3 attacks at full-BAB and one at -5 that likely won't hit, so they probably won't bother with the 4th arrow. Though that does make things slightly more balanced for multi-shot archers and the like, it simply doesn't work in the first place - the spell copies arrows up to the material they were made with, but does not copy added effects from alchemical weapon because they are not inherent to the ammunition being copied. Special material types, sure, but not added effects. If you have any relevant FAQs I'd love to see them - I want this to work (my character would love the boost) but I just don't see how.

With the extra damage per arrow it only makes for a 6 BAB archer to be using rapid shot and multishot which is 4 arrows although only 3 attacks or be a zen archer making 4 attacks as a flurry. Doesn't apply to crossbowman or slinger or other ranged weapons, but does to bows which is why dedicated ranged characters use bows (or are gunslingers). Throw haste into the mix, which is not unlikely, and an archer is using 5 arrows a round. This is why some people think archers are overpowered.

As for AA, the spell description gives no indication that the replacement ammo created by the spell is any different than the ammo used, and the rules for spell enhanced ammo specify that the magic enhancement is cast on ammo created by the spell:

Quote:
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.

Any non-magical ammo taken out of a container with AA on it should be replaced with similar non-magical ammo - take a masterwork arrow out and it is replaced with a masterwork arrow, take a silver arrow out and it is replaced with silver arrow, take an infused arrow out and it is replaced with an infused arrow. If the replacement arrows created by the spell were different than the ones used then the spell would specify that.

As for why all archers don't take it, it takes rounds of preparation and costs money, an archer without concern for prep time and money can use a scroll of greater magic item written by a level 8 wizard to put +1 bane on their arrows which adds +3 to hit (although each does .5 points of damage less than the Artokus's fire/acid infused arrows) which lasts for 8 hours and affects more arrows than the infusion. Dedicated archers who don't mind spending money and can take several preparation rounds before combat have better options.

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