+3 armor?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Hello, you all probably know me as "Anyone got Coarse Padding +3 for trade" Kradlum. Well, thanks to Empyrean Bankbot you hopefully won't be hearing that for a while.

I finally have my Piecemeal Brigandine +3. I have lvl 5 Scout and lvl 2 light armour proficiency. So I slot my armor and... nothing. No change to any stats.

I notice Scout only has 3 keywords. How do I activate the last keyword on my armor?

Goblin Squad Member

You need to be level 8 Scout, which requires Dex 14/Wis 11, and probably another 10k exp.

Goblin Squad Member

Aaargh!

I may as well put my old armour back on. How on Golarion am I going to get 14 Dex! (let alone 11 Wis)


Yeah unfortunately that is not very intuitive. You do still look better in that armor, though!

As for the 11 wisdom, the quickest way would be to train up Iconographer to level 5 and Apothecary to level 4. That would take about 2 weeks, though. (Something tells me this new armor feat ability requirement system may not survive long.)

Goblin Squad Member

If you want Wisdom 11 and you're playing as an Adventurer and not a Crafter you're probably going to get more use from Forester 7, Scavenger 7, Nature 7, Perception 7 and Survival 7.

It's 47K but I'll bet you already have some of those. For Apothecary and Iconographer it's 32K, though you probably need 5 and 5 in both for 41K. It's a moot point though as I don't see how you're going to get Dex 14 without a few more months of xp.


Takasi wrote:
It's a moot point though as I don't see how you're going to get Dex 14 without a few more months of xp.

Bingo. The goal is a system that does not require us to train outside our role to meet role-related feat reqs. The second ability score req on Armors will do just that, however.

Goblin Squad Member

I am rogue/tanner/scavenger.
I am almost at Dex 12, mostly from shortbow and rapier feats.
I have scavenger 7. Requiring Wis for a Rogue armour feat is just perverse.

It would help if feats at the trainer showed what stat they increased and by how much, and if you could see your actual stat value on the character sheet. Today I have been checking my Dex at the Rogue trainer, running to the skirmisher and getting a new lvl in combat feat, running back to the rogue trainer to check that it actually improved my Dex and by how much...

Next question - with a +3 bow/rapier do I get the benefit of lvl 4 feats or just lvl 3? (Or is there some other perverse gate to hurdle altogether?)


a +3 bow/rapier requires lvl 5 attacks to make use of the fourth minor keyword. The lvl 4 of any attack adds the (major) masterwork keyword, so you'd need Tier 2-weapons to get an advantage out of that.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
Takasi wrote:
It's a moot point though as I don't see how you're going to get Dex 14 without a few more months of xp.
Bingo. The goal is a system that does not require us to train outside our role to meet role-related feat reqs. The second ability score req on Armors will do just that, however.

There are 3 different Rogue armor feats:

- Chameleon (Pure stealthy Rogue): Requires only Dex
- Scout (Gives Perception bonus + Archery): Dex + Wisdom as secondary
- Swashbuckler (Dandy Highwayman): Dex + Personality as secondary

A Rogue doesn't have to boost another attribute; she can be a plain-vanilla Chameleon.

To benefit from higher ranks of the Scout style, the Rogue is going to have to focus on Perception which is a Wisdom-based skill.

The Swashbucklers are the front men of any gang; the guy who gets out into melee range to shout "Stand and Deliver". He's likely the boss or an officer and will have to develop other Personality-based feats.

That all makes sense to me; each style in different and may appeal to different players to fill their character concept.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
The goal is a system that does not require us to train outside our role to meet role-related feat reqs. The second ability score req on Armors will do just that, however.

Every Adventurer armor style except Cameleon will (eventually) require 1 attribute at 30 and 1 attribute at 20, but we can reach Tier2+2 without the secondary attribute. I'd assume that many of us will have to branch out our characters beyond that point.

Goblin Squad Member

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A rogue build with forester, scavenger, nature, perception and survival training is very 'scout' like.

Goblin Squad Member

Remind me, what is the point of perception in the game?


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Increases the range at which stealthed characters become visible to you.

Goblin Squad Member

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<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
Remind me, what is the point of perception in the game?
Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Increases the range at which stealthed characters become visible to you.

It also increases the range at which visible Stealthed Characters can be targeted by you. I think this is potentially the more important benefit.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Increases the range at which stealthed characters become visible to you.

I think that's anything on the mini-map, since I was able to get two characters to stand side-by-side and not see mobs and nodes exactly the same.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

...Well, thanks to Empyrean Bankbot you hopefully won't be hearing that for a while.

Curiously enough, it is actually the Bankbot character herself that makes the coarse padding +3.

(Us proper weavers are making the fine padding though, in case you decide masterwork is 4x better than that +3 keyword).


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Before I begin: No disrespect to Stephen and Lee; aside from this, the current system works very nicely on close inspection. But these armor feats don't pass muster.

@posters above: I think yall need to look at the long-term Exp costs associated with Forester and Scavenger. They start off cheaper than crafting and refining skills, but end up having the same cumulative cost in the long term. Players are not meant to be master in those without focusing in them. To attain Level 15, they are spending as much exp as someone trying to procure Level 15 of a craft skill. At 16 and above, they are paying more per level than someone working a craft skill.

So lets say someone goes to level 14 in both Forester and Scavenger. The good news is since they are training both up alongside perception, they won't have to go "outside" to get the wisdom score they need. The bad news is they have to invest 228 days of their character's life into Scavenger and Forester so they can advance to level 14 (max level) with their armor feat.

This isn't because Scout is so much more uber than Chameleon or Swashbuckler- the armor feats are balanced across each other, such that Chameleon=Scout=Swashbuckler. This is because someone chooses a particular play style that calls for Scout, and then is summarily forced (aka Rail-roaded) to spend an exceptional amount of excess experience training things they may not want to have anything to do with. Players with Con as a secondary don't have this issue- They can get their Con score up to 20 with only a month's worth of extra training *outside* their role (I know because I have checked).

Lets take it a step further: How the hell is a Swashbuckler supposed to get 20 Personality? Train Dowser and Sage? Or how about a Wizard getting 20 Wisdom for Scholar when Scholar so clearly associates with Int-based knowledge skills? And Evangelists? Where do they get their 20 Personality from? Of course, Mages are well known to have 20 dexterity in every version of DnD and PF ever played.

And no, non-trade skills like Bluff, Perception, and Stealth DO NOT provide the answer. They provide a minimal ability score bonus that only makes a difference when combined with higher-bonus feats- of which most roles lack once you get outside their core ability and Constitution.

So what we have is a system where if you want to use Archer, Dragoon, Unbreakable, Healer, Crusader, Binder, or Chameleon, the game works with you (especially if you want to use Chameleon).

If you want to use Scout, Swashbuckler, Mage, Scholar or Evangelist, the game works against you, requiring the investment of 3/4 to a years worth of excess EXP just so you can have the SAME level of power as the armor feats in the first list. Not MORE power, the same power. That, in my opinion, is BS- even though I, too, plan on building a Scout that will train in Nature, Perception, Survival, Forester and Scavenger and so would not be adversely affected by this system.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Increases the range at which stealthed characters become visible to you.

Really? I see stealthed characters as a big red blob on the mini map. I'm not sure how perception can make them more visible.

Goblin Squad Member

As of now, if feels Stealth is only a PVE thing. I'm hopping when they add "Disguise" in, it will become the PvP "stealth"

Goblin Squad Member

IF someone has high enough stealth they can get very close 20-30 meters without being on the Mini Map or visibly seen. Eventually you can see them in game as a shadow, and on the Mini Map, but you can't target them, while they can target you. You want to have some perception.

Goblin Squad Member

Banesama had like 96 Stealth and was able to get just outside the Tower Wall before I saw him with my 0 Perception while I was standing roughly in the center of the Tower area.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Banesama had like 96 Stealth and was able to get just outside the Tower Wall before I saw him with my 0 Perception while I was standing roughly in the center of the Tower area.

Yeah. I was actually surprised how close I got to you. That was close enough to get off a melee surprise attack.

Side Note: 116 Stealth now. :P


Me thinks I need to get back on my Perception training. I wonder if Followthrough/Patient combos are working properly now?


Some convincing arguments from the Alpha Forum thread on this topic:

Urman wrote:

Devs had said that Armor training Lv is used as a metric in determining character level, specifically with effects of consumables and the like. I don't believe there are any other skills that have two Attribute requirements. All of the role achievements do eventually require a second attribute to be raised past 11 (at Lv14 in the role, ie, Tier 3), with a max of 16 in the second attribute at role lv 20.

Armor lv is not a prerequisite for anything except the ability to wear certain gear. Armor lv10 requires "only" Attribute1 at 20 and Attribute2 at 14. This allows wearing Tier3+3 armors. (Note that T3+3 armors do not exist for all Armor Feat paths!). Many players will stop at lv10 and turn their hand to other skills.

Given the above, I think the attribute requirements for armor are well within the scope and concepts of the game. After reaching skill lv10 in some armor, the player has to make the decision whether or not to continue advancing the armor to lv14, knowing it will require significant training to advance that attribute. The armor requirements will certainly separate the "Achievers" from the mere "Explorers", "Socializers", and "Killers".

emphasis added So basically, at level 10 of the armor feat, you don't really *have* to continue to level it up. You are already positioned to take full advantage of some very nice T3 armor.

Lee Hammock wrote:
You can get to level 8 in any role without having to diversify, but not with every build within that role. if you want to be a rogue who gets to max level without buying anything else, play a Chameleon armor feat rogue. Scout is for those rogues who decide to go Perception heavy, and having an 11 Wisdom at character level 12 (armor feat level 8, the first time the secondary attribute requirement is higher than 10) is not hard since you've already got some points from Power and Base Attack Bonus. Go buy some Will defense or Iron Will.

I suppose the lesson I am learning here is to accept that maxing out some things is not meant to be unless you *really* want it to be.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:
and having an 11 Wisdom at character level 12 (armor feat level 8

Wait, I have to be character level 12, as well as armour prof 2, and scout 8 to benefit from +3 armour?

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
Quote:
and having an 11 Wisdom at character level 12 (armor feat level 8
Wait, I have to be character level 12, as well as armour prof 2, and scout 8 to benefit from +3 armour?

You gain the 4th Minor Keyword on an Armor Feat at Rank 8, so yes, you need at least Rank 8 to fully utilize +3 Armor.

You need Armor Proficiency 2 in order to train Rank 6, but that only requires Role Level 5.

I'm not seeing why you'd need to be Role Level 12.


I think he means it as an effective level. There are currently no level achievement requirements for Armor feats. But at armor level 8, you would expect to be about a 12th level character.

Goblin Squad Member

Sspitfire1 wrote:
But at armor level 8, you would expect to be about a 12th level character.

Why would you expect that?

Goblin Squad Member

Thats 8 out of 14 Armor levels, or 57% of max. That's close to 12 out of 20 character levels - if the character was leveling armor and attacks and everything else uniformly. (Closer to character level 11 of 20, but the Devs might be rounding up.)

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I'm not seeing why you'd need to be Role Level 12.

Phew, I was worried there was another hurdle I had to jump that I didn't know about, not that I am likely to reach Scout 8 before EE (I'm going to reach Scout 7 today, so at least then I can see my actual Wis score), but it gives me something to shoot at.

Goblin Squad Member

Ok, I reached Scout 7...

Soooo... Scout 8... I need another 2 Dex and 0.2 Wisdom. Let's ignore the Wis for now. By my calculation, with all my shortbow and light melee feats currently at lvl 3, I need to raise 10 (and a bit) of them to level 5 to gain 2 more Dex. Which is approximately 150,000xp, or 5 months playing time, from Scout 7 to Scout 8 to be able to benefit from +3 armour (or tier 2).

Is this correct? Is this intended? ~7 months play time to benefit from +3 tier 1 armour, something I have been able to make after 6 weeks or less playing time?

Goblin Squad Member

I think the intended progression of armor (or is it all gear?) is:

T1+0; T1+1; T1+2;
T2+0; T2+1; T2+2; T2+3;
T3+0; T3+1; T3+2; T3+3.

T1+3 and all of the +4/+5 armors are special cases that do not fall into the normal progression.

Tier1+3 can be used effectively by someone who can also use T2+3; it will likely be rarely used, as T2+0 has the same keyword total and gets better RNG. Just because we can make T1+3, T1+4, and T1+5 gear six weeks into the game doesn't have to mean it's a useful thing to make.

I think an argument could be made that T1+3 (and +4 and +5) shouldn't be craftable - it's likely going to be more trouble than it's worth with scammers selling it to new players and people crafting their way into dead-ends.

Goblin Squad Member

What level armour feat do you need for Tier 2 armour?


Kradlum, your biggest source of Dex is not your attacks, it is your features. For now, assume you want to go to Level 4 with all of your attacks (you need to join a settlement first, of course).

That is 4,502*10 or 45,000 experience for 0.75 dexterity points.

Assuming you are at Feature level 4, Feature level 6 will cost 32,719 exp and get you another 0.894 points.

You can then choose to train up a second feature, train up stealth, train up a craft skill- whatever fits your play style best to close the gap.

Or you can put Armor 8 on lay-away and spend the exp rounding out your character by training Reactives, Defensives and Utilities- which will also help your Dex out a touch.

And yes, taking that long to get there is intended. In WoW you can be level 90 in 2 months of grindcore playing. In PFO, all you can do is sit back and enjoy the ride- and remember that everyone else is in the same boat as you!


<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
What level armour feat do you need for Tier 2 armour?

You were ready for T2 at level 6 of your armor training. Level 7 just added more of the static bonus. Level 8 will put you square for taking advantage of a full +3 item.


Urman wrote:
I think an argument could be made that T1+3 (and +4 and +5) shouldn't be craftable - it's likely going to be more trouble than it's worth with scammers selling it to new players and people crafting their way into dead-ends.

This a huge point both Ryan and I should include in our respective guides. Namely, don't buy an item because it has lots of pluses- just +2 is all you will need for a long time.

Goblin Squad Member

I find this whole system of activating tier 2 features before you have exhausted the possibilities of tier 1 items perverse. As Urman says, there seems to be no point in having any tier 1 item greater than +2 in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
I find this whole system of activating tier 2 features before you have exhausted the possibilities of tier 1 items perverse. As Urman says, there seems to be no point in having any tier 1 item greater than +2 in the game.

As Ryan says elsewhere, Tier 1 +3 Items fill a very narrow niche. Once you have to start Threading your equipment, you might have a different perspective.

Goblinworks Game Designer

I'm not happy with +3 T1 weapons and armor being almost never more useful than +2s. Unfortunately, I'm less happy with the consequences of any of the solutions we've had so far to that problem. That is, it's a wart in the system, but it's a small one and fixing it would create bigger issues.

Goblin Squad Member

@ sspitting goat

This what I meant when in chat I wrote that I wished they would smooth out the armor progression a bit more.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
I'm not happy with +3 T1 weapons and armor being almost never more useful than +2s. Unfortunately, I'm less happy with the consequences of any of the solutions we've had so far to that problem. That is, it's a wart in the system, but it's a small one and fixing it would create bigger issues.

Yeah most "fixes" would seem to involve either completely restructuring the keyword system or potentially undermining it by having higher "+" weapons gain ability from something other than keywords.

One conequence of this is the T1 weapon progression ends up quite shallow. There is effectively only 3 useful choices in any tier 1 weapon.

As the benefits from the extra minor keywords at each plus are not substantial you may end up with a situation once husks are introduced where most players just use +0 and occasionally +1 T1 gear until they can access T2. (this of course is already the situation in EVE where people that like to fly "shiney" ships with lots of "bling" tend to beome gank magnets)

Goblin Squad Member

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A side comment on gear tiers in PFO:

I've been playing Crusader Kings lately, and my county has Light Infantry (LI), a few Heavy Infantry (HI), and some archers. (It's a poor rural district). No Medium Infantry, I think. I was thinking to myself - where's the LI/MI/HI difference in PFO? Light and medium armors are in many cases almost as expensive as heavy armors.

Eventually it struck me: the LI/MI/HI divide in PFO isn't between the rogue/light fighters and heavy fighters. It's between the Tier 1/Tier 2/Tier 3 gear sets.

There's always going to be some number of Tier 1 characters. New players, low level alts, and mostly-non-combatants like my Refiner toon, who I'm quite willing to take into PvP with Tier 1 gear. That's the LI. Poor settlements and companies may outfit the LI in T1+0; rich settlements might manage T1+1 or T1+2, if only to buff the LI hit points.

In the mid-long term, MI will be the bulk of most PVP groups. It will be PvP-focused characters with 3-4 weeks time in game up to about 6 months in game. Like with LI, MI will likely have a range of gear based on the wealth of the company and settlement.

The HI are the Tier 3 crew. They'll have 6+ months in game and a solid economic base, but that high plus T3 gear is going to be dear.


Neadenil Edam wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
I'm not happy with +3 T1 weapons and armor being almost never more useful than +2s. Unfortunately, I'm less happy with the consequences of any of the solutions we've had so far to that problem. That is, it's a wart in the system, but it's a small one and fixing it would create bigger issues.

Yeah most "fixes" would seem to involve either completely restructuring the keyword system or potentially undermining it by having higher "+" weapons gain ability from something other than keywords.

One conequence of this is the T1 weapon progression ends up quite shallow. There is effectively only 3 useful choices in any tier 1 weapon.

As the benefits from the extra minor keywords at each plus are not substantial you may end up with a situation once husks are introduced where most players just use +0 and occasionally +1 T1 gear until they can access T2. (this of course is already the situation in EVE where people that like to fly "shiney" ships with lots of "bling" tend to beome gank magnets)

I find that using +2 weapons and armor is well worth the extra cost over +0. +2 is effectively a Also, husks won't allow the theft of weapons and armor unless it is not threaded. Since those are arguably the two most valuable items on a character, I doubt they will be unthreaded often.

And while the option list may seem shallow, the incremental benefit at T1 is larger compared to higher tier equipment. +1 nets a 11% increase in attack damage at T1 (45->50), while it only nets a 7.7% increase in damage at T2 (65->70). Then there is the Epow/Edef side of things. Every keyword you are missing means a 10% loss in effect power or a 10% boost to your enemy's effects. That 10% stacks all the way the tiers and +'s.

Using +3 and higher items when we don't get a benefit from it is where your suggestion becomes likely. I'll wear +3 Soldier's Chain because I like how it looks (especially in green). But the more pragmatic player will avoid the extra expense.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't see what is wrong with progressing T1 +0, +1, +2, +3, (T2 & T1+4), etc instead of T1 +0, +1, +2, T2, T1 +3 etc

Goblin Squad Member

Sspitfire, are all of the things in black on your spreadsheet planned for the game, but not in yet, or were they formerly in and have been removed?


Planned but not in. Purple is in but not doing anything. (Technically, all the Rogue features should be purple....).

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
I don't see what is wrong with progressing T1 +0, +1, +2, +3, (T2 & T1+4), etc instead of T1 +0, +1, +2, T2, T1 +3 etc

I suppose one issue is it means T2 proficiency automatically gives you T2+3 under your plan.


Yay the current layout, however unintuitive, leaves the player with still more room to grow between T2 and T3. Anyways, like a lot of things about this game, I think it will be simple to learn once explained properly to the new players. As simple as, "Don't worry about +3 or higher gear for your first couple of months of play. +2 is good enough."

Goblin Squad Member

I think it is a nice twist that a T1 item that has been produced with excellent (expensive ) resources can be of interest for higher level gamers. That means there is a niche (albeit small) for good crafters even if they lack access to T2 resources ...


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Schedim wrote:
I think it is a nice twist that a T1 item that has been produced with excellent (expensive ) resources can be of interest for higher level gamers. That means there is a niche (albeit small) for good crafters even if they lack access to T2 resources ...

And small niches are the key driver of speciation (evolution of new species) and diversity, diversity being what makes life so damn fascinating to study and look at :)

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