Well, there's his problem. Druid is a bad choice for those stats. Honestly, everything is except maybe a Theologian casting-focused cleric or possibly a Sensei.
He got shafted. If you wanted them to do something different why not just ask them to do something different instead of giving them horrible stats?
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this is level 1, he always plays stupidly high dex and con characters. He hasnt played a caster since 4e. He just complains about being useless compared to the fighter and gunslinger.
Because, at the moment, he is useless. Divine casters are set up to be melee early on and then transition to full casters later. He's got not melee ability with those stats, so he's worthless until he gets better spells later one.
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Sorry Yazo, if I were in your party, I'd be bi%#@ing too. Not about the class I chose; that was his choice, and it's pretty stupid to whine about it now. I'd be pissed about your character generation model.
The APs are designed with point-buy in mind.
4d6 no rerolls straight stats pidgeonholes you into a class you might not want to play just because your stats are such that you shouldn't be anything else. Say I got all crap stats but got an 18 on my intelligence? Great, now I have to be a wizard, witch, or arcanist, and I really had my heart set on a barbarian.
Yeah, I COULD be a barbarian...and suck at it...but you know what? I didn't come to a fantasy world to pretend to suck.
LOL he's a character with no viable attack method. I'd complain too. With those stats, about the only way to go is oracle and ignore his high stat. That way he could at least have some defense. The only possible way for for him to use weapons would be a Guided weapon.
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uhh guys, that stat array corresponds to a 44 point buy. It's a fantastic set of stats.
For the record. APs are designed with 15 pt buy.
The problem is he wants to melee and feels that he can't.
Allow him to swap two of his stats and maybe change class.
Try a summoner?
uhh guys, that stat array corresponds to a 44 point buy. It's a fantastic set of stats.
For the record. APs are designed with 15 pt buy.
The problem is he wants to melee and feels that he can't.
Allow him to swap two of his stats and maybe change class.
Try a summoner?
The OP isn't allowing stat-swapping. THAT is the problem. They're locked in. It's not like he got the numbers first and put them where he wanted; he rolled, and the order they dropped is the order they went on the sheet.
That's the issue...that and apparently the OP doesn't like players playing what they want to play.
Some people like variety. Some people don't. You shouldn't punish people for knowing what they like and sticking to it.
I hate bards. I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE bards. I "Kefka on a cut scene" hate them. I had a GM make me play one. I really REALLY tried to do my best with him.
I suicided by charge-at-the-strongest-thing-I-could-find-every-dang-round-until-something -killed-me three sessions in because he wouldn't let me switch characters.
I have a type. Don't make me play your type.
I feel for the player in question here.
hmm maybe letting him switch to like a Zen archer so he uses his wisdom to attack, or always just go the synthisist lol XD
I hadn't thought about a synthisist. Heck yeah, that solves the issue right there.
uhh guys, that stat array corresponds to a 44 point buy. It's a fantastic set of stats.
You're forgetting that's probably his stat array after racials.
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it was locked in when he rolled. He rolled first to get strength, then Dexterity, etc. He always plays dextrous in and out characters, so i wanted him to change. His stats are 11 Str, 11 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 18 Wis, 16 Cha, so he picked Druid.
Speaking from experience I can say that forcing players to lock stats isn't a great idea.
We roll 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s, then assign the rolls to stats.
The average ends up being about 12-14 for each stat, though there're still plenty of 10s and 11s, 15-16s and a few 17-18s.
Basically, most characters have a total of +11 to +13 among all modifiers, and everyone gets to build their characters as they desire.
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An alternate that we've used and found works really well, rather than point-buy, is simply saying "you may have a total of +11/12/13 to stats"
to explain, 11 is +.5, 12 is +1, 13 is +1.5, etc.
So 18, 16, 14, 13, 11, 10 would be one spread (+11 = +4 +3 +2 +1.5 +.5 +0), for example.
Using this method has given the players pretty robust characters without creating massive disparities between the "most powerful" PC and the "least powerful". It's also a lot more direct than the typical Point-Buy system.
I suggest the player suicide by charging-at-the-strongest-thing-he-could-find-every-dang-round-until-someth ing-kills-him. Maybe his next character will get to be something he actually feels like playing.
By the way...
Characters that benefit from high Dex/Con:
-Any archery character
-Any character with any of the following feats: Dervish Dance, Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace
Funny thing about those two categories; they're not limited to the rogue. Suggesting "play a rogue" because the guy doesn't want to die easily is not the only way to go. Take a look at this list:
Urban Barbarian
Dawnflower Dervish Bard
Archer Fighter
Monk with an agile AoMF
Archery focused Ranger
Rogue, but you already stated that...
Bomber-focused Alchemist
ANY Gunslinger
Daring Champion Cavalier
Archery focused Inquisitor
Ninja
Investigator
Slayer
Swashbuckler
He could literally play a Dex/Con focused character over a dozen times on that list and never play the same class twice.
If he doesn't want to play a caster, don't make him.
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44 pt buy is now suicide territory?
I have a type. Don't make me play your type.
I feel for the player in question here.
I agree - my group plays different classes all the time, but we still tend to like certain play styles.
I like up-front melee-focused classes, so my favorite classes end up being the Barbarian, Rogue, Bloodrager, and Warpriest when I play.
Some of my players like Arcane full-casters, so they typically go with Sorcerer, Wizard, Arcanist, or Witch.
Others like support roles, so they prefer Cavalier, Bard, or Skald.
etc. etc.
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It's not your job as the DM to make players play outside of their comfort zone - if you want people to play atypical classes for themselves, set up worlds or adventures where it'd be natural for them to to do so.
Ok, "the low AC on his animal companion." Really? At level 1, assuming you take Light Armor Proficiency on the AC, you can easily afford Wooden Armor at character creation (40gp for a medium-sized non-humanoid). That's almost universally 17 AC for a level 1 druid's animal companion. If he's not interested in using a feat for actual armor, Imp Natural Armor or Dodge are also available, which means more like 15 AC. I'm literally just looking at the CRB animal companion list here.
Sure, Druids are a little weak at level 1 as pure casters. That said, those stats are absolutely amazing in general and he opted for a poor choice. Cleric, Empyreal Sorcerer, Shaman, Zen Archer Monk...these are all very reasonable choices with that stat outlay, though the ZA would admittedly be a little low-damage with the lack of a STR mod. Still, there are a ton of ways to play a Druid with those stats and be very effective, even at level 1. Those are Party Face stats if I've ever seen them and the player is opting to complain about low DEX instead of looking at the roles available to him.
Honestly, if I could build a Shaman with those stats, I'd be having a blast in his place.
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With those stats, I would have asked if I could move any of them. If not, I play a cleric and make the most of it. You can easily build around those stats and not be a whiny female dog. Yes, the first few levels may be tough but that is why you let the tanks be your meat shields as you channel and heal your way through the low levels.
I would have let those who wanted to lock in do so, but not made everyone do it.
Sometimes I let players choose to roll or do point buy.
It also seems that the player having a lack of system master had no idea what he was doing by going druid, and expecting to be good in melee.
I can only suggest that you let him swap one stat or get rid of the "lock in" idea.
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Yeah, I really don't understand the low AC problem. As long as you get barding for the animal companion it should be somewhere around 17 plus. My druid's animal companion at 1st level was a stegosaurus, AC 23 first adventure played with him, and it just got better from there.
That being said, I kind of agree with him about the stats. I hate having to make a character out of whatever random stats I get. Especially so when I'm not able to adjust or switch stats around. Kinda takes the sense of agency away from the character creation, and makes it hard to like your character, or like playing it.
What are his racial mods? If he hate's being a druid and has a floating +2 (human, half-elf, half-orc) he can swap his +2 from wis(assuming that's where it is) to cha and be a great sorcerer.
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uhh guys, that stat array corresponds to a 44 point buy. It's a fantastic set of stats.
For the record. APs are designed with 15 pt buy.
The problem is he wants to melee and feels that he can't.
Allow him to swap two of his stats and maybe change class.
Try a summoner?
Yes it is a good set of stats.
In Ye Olden days 3d6, set stats were kinda the rule of the day.
Want to play a paladin? you can't you didn't roll a 17.
If he HAD allowed to rearrange stats this would be WAY better than point buy and the guy would still make the same exact character he usually plays.
the fun comes in when you are forced to play outside of the box with the stats you ended up with.
this often results in the guy who is normally a barb playing a wizard and the rogue is a cleric… etc.
newer players have gotten so used to choices, it creates a very vanilla feeling when you just have Yohan the 14th and his same EXACT point buy stats he ALWAYS has in yet another rendition of the same character with the SAME skill points and feat selection.
So that's the rationale for doing the roll and use what you ended up with… to just have something literally new, BECAUSE you didn't have a choice.
Im curious… how does this roll method have anything to do with the characters animal companion tho?
11 Str, 11 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 18 Wis, 16 Cha,
Assuming his character is human and assuming his 18 is actually a 16 without racial mod,
he could have gone dwarf and had:
str 11 dex 11 con 18 int 14 wis 18 cha 14
or Dual Talent human
Str 13 Dex 13 con 16 int 14 wis 16 cha 16. OR a cleric Str 13 dex 11 con 16 int 14 wis 18 cha 16 (this wouldn't even be bad for a druid… AC in hide armor with a heavy wooden shield would be 17)
IF the character had been built with 15 pt buy at best you would have had:
Str 13 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 13 before racial
Dual talent makes him:
Str 15 Dex 10 con 12 Int 10 Wis 17 cha 13.
Whats the REAL difference in these stats?
He's got a little more attack/damage with point buy, but several less HP.
plus ALL his mental stats are worse with point buy,
I think if allowed him to get a little inventive with his race, he could map those stats work fine.
Alternatively, if you want to roll stats and make yourself and HIM happy.
Use 3d6 arrange stats where they want, and give them an extra +2 (no stats over 18) over and above racial.
This will give you a variation in characters (because they can't always choose the same exact thing and make it work) without boing them into something they really don't want to play at all and just sitting in wet diapers and being un happy.
This doesn't address your whiney Druid, but you could simply let the rolls fall where they may and let him life or die... Then move on? Alternately, he could live and just play his character.
Be strong...
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The players chose to do something in a different way, and it didn't work out for him. He got 44 pt buy and he's not happy?
Listen, I understand that having fun is the point of the game, but that doesn't mean the DM bends over backwards every time something doesn't go a players way. The player AGREED to this rolling method by vote, then after getting BLESSED by the dice gods changed his mind. If a player gets unlucky because of a roll or a mistake, whining about it for multiple sessions is not acceptable.
If I was a DM, I'd give him the choice of 15pt buy redo if he doesn't want his array. That's more than fair.
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The players chose to do something in a different way, and it didn't work out for him. He got 44 pt buy and he's not happy?
It is effectively a high point buy, but if the "amazing" stats you have are only amazing for the kind of character you don't want to play (full divine caster or sorcerer with empyreal bloodline in this case), then there is plenty of reason to be unhappy.
Personally I don't see the point of forcing someone to play a class they're not interested in (which by forcing straight rolls is a real possibility); this is a hobby, not srs bizness. You may be "broadening his horizons," but perhaps the player doesn't care about that and just enjoys the simple pleasure of two-hand power attacking goblins in the face with a great axe or something similar? I'd only do the straight down the line ability scores thing if everyone in the game wanted it and accepted all that went with it, which does not seem to be the case here.
Geeze.
If the guy wants a new character that badly, let him retire to NPC status and roll over for a new one. Or the PC can inadvertently be a little overzealous in combat, die and roll over.
Some players invariably play the same "thing" over and over, and only vary the specific ways to achieve their "thing". If this player can't get by without being a high-DEX martial, then he should go with that and the DM should let him.
Why not offer a fall-back option: 4d6 (drop lowest) straight allocation OR 15-point buy.
Looks to me like he'd be a great sorcerer with those stats, especially the one who is WIS-based. Or even a multiclassed sorcerer-cleric. As long as his forte is spell-based, and he avoids ray spells, his low DEX is really irrelevant.
And even as a druid, he can get a lot of mileage out of summon nature's ally, and roleplaying the ultimate tree-hugger.
There is nothing wrong with those stats.
But like others have said, the problem is that this player doesn't seem to want to play a caster.
Either let him try to get into the game, some classes take a couple of sessions to "get" - maybe he'll have fun when he starts roleplaying social interactions and realize he has awesome skills ...
But yeah, if he keeps charging melee with a club and only use CLW ...offer him to retire the character and make a new one with 15pt buy.
Anything else is just pampering, it's a game and we're all supposed to have fun
- but YOU are not responsible for HIS ability to have fun.
Cool idea though, maybe my group will try it for a module.
Also animal companions are overpowered in my opinion so he can STFU & GTFO about that subject
-Seems like you guys need to have an adult talk about what you can do & more importantly: what HE can do to ensure that he is having fun gaming with the rest of the group.
Good luck, let us know how it works out!
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Looks to me like he'd be a great sorcerer with those stats, especially the one who is WIS-based. Or even a multiclassed sorcerer-cleric. As long as his forte is spell-based, and he avoids ray spells, his low DEX is really irrelevant.
With NO ac. The sorcerer can crawl all the way up to 11...
Can't hit with attack cantrips...Seems pretty crappy to me...
It looks like a lot of people are missing the part where the OP mentioned the group voted on this stat-gen method. Maybe this particular player voted against it, but whatever, he needs to take one for the team on this one.
If you're not having fun, why should you "take one for the team". When someone has a crappy time, it's contagious. It's better to sit out if you know your just going to bring everyone else down by being unhappy.
- but YOU are not responsible for HIS ability to have fun
The Gm kind of is. This was really a perfect setup for someone to be UNhappy. If fact, he went out of his way to force the character to play something different knowing that he wouldn't be pleased. It doesn't help that the character is totally unable to hit anything and will have bad AC until it can buy the heaviest armor they can buy.
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In Ye Olden days 3d6, set stats were kinda the rule of the day.Want to play a paladin? you can't you didn't roll a 17.
If he HAD allowed to rearrange stats this would be WAY better than point buy and the guy would still make the same exact character he usually plays.
Maybe it's just me, but if I wanted to play 2nd Ed, I'd be playing 2nd ed!
Also, "Back in my day we walked uphill in the snow both ways, and the men were men, and we wore an onion in our belt, because it was the style at the time" much?
I played 2nd ed too. I don't long for it. At all.
the fun comes in when you are forced to play outside of the box with the stats you ended up with.
this often results in the guy who is normally a barb playing a wizard and the rogue is a cleric… etc.
Not for everyone. For me, for example, the fun comes in being the character I actually imagined, helping create the collaborative story using my own imagination, not a combination of flinging darts at a board and reading the results.
newer players have gotten so used to choices, it creates a very vanilla feeling when you just have Yohan the 14th and his same EXACT point buy stats he ALWAYS has in yet another rendition of the same character with the SAME skill points and feat selection.
I gave over a dozen examples of totally different classes this kind of player could choose while remaining in his comfort zone. That kind of argument might have flown a few years ago, but with all the options today, it's totally possible to create similar, but different, characters. Also, Raistlin is not Gandalf is not Merlin, even though they're all wizards.