|
It's not like optional books regarding alignment don't have a standing tradition of making the game worse. :)
To each their own I suppose.
Traditionally I haven't used alignment. I'm not a fan of restricting myself and initially I thought you were meant to determine your alignment and then decide your character. Nowadays when acting as a player I send my personality and background to the DM and ask them to determine my alignment and whether the character is appropriate for the campaign. As a DM I would tell my players it won't be too much of an issue.
However after seeing issues crop up (half the party is evil, the other half lawful good. Players all turned up to be evil, DM thought he'd be running a heroic campaign) I got some advice from a local DM and have decided to adopt their method which is to have the players decide a party alignment that their characters must be within 1 step of.
Here's a write up on party alignment I'm putting together for my next campaign:
The most basic question to decide is what morals will be guiding the party. Will you be playing team-evil? Or will you be shining exemplars of all that is good and righteous?
As a group, decide what alignment for your group. Your characters will then need to be within one step of this group alignment (so if you were to choose a lawful good alignment for the group then everyone would need to play a LG, LN or NG character).
There is no reason that as a group you can’t decide to play an evil themed party. However keep in mind that the campaign assumes you’re a bunch of heroes looking to save a town from terrible evils, so it will be necessary for you to find motivation for your characters to do this even if they are evil. Committing atrocities that are likely to see the town rise up against will severely limit your ability to continue and engage in the campaign so it’s important that if you do play evil characters they are subtle and careful about it.
On the other hand if you decide to play chaotic characters then you’ll need to find reasons to work together with your fellow players and to also work towards saving the village.
Obviously neutral and good characters will have the easiest time in engaging in this campaign. However there is no reason that without a bit of creativity and effort as a group you couldn’t decide to play a more chaotic or evil party.
---
This uses alignment to facilitate the players talking about the type of characters they want to play as a group (to make sure they'll all be able to work together in an enjoyable way) and also give them a heads up as to how the campaign will engage them.
This is one part of a "party dynamic" chapter that also covers avoiding excessive conflict with other characters (e.g. no parties with zealous rahadoumites and in your face divine priests) and avoiding stepping on each other's niche (e.g. wizards can easily hog all the knowledge skills and easily surpass everyone's highest rolls if they try).
As for in actual play: if a priest (e.g. cleric, paladin, warpriest, etc) was to break their vows then they would find themselves facing repercussions. But I've never actually changed someone's alignment.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Traditionally I haven't used alignment. I'm not a fan of restricting myself and initially I thought you were meant to determine your alignment and then decide your character. Nowadays when acting as a player I send my personality and background to the DM and ask them to determine my alignment and whether the character is appropriate for the campaign. As a DM I would tell my players it won't be too much of an issue.
However after seeing issues crop up (half the party is evil, the other half lawful good. Players all turned up to be evil, DM thought he'd be running a heroic campaign) I got some advice from a local DM and have decided to adopt their method which is to have the players decide a party alignment that their characters must be within 1 step of.
Here's a write up on party alignment I'm putting together for my next campaign:
The most basic question to decide is what morals will be guiding the party. Will you be playing team-evil? Or will you be shining exemplars of all that is good and righteous?
As a group, decide what alignment for your group. Your characters will then need to be within one step of this group alignment (so if you were to choose a lawful good alignment for the group then everyone would need to play a LG, LN or NG character).
There is no reason that as a group you can’t decide to play an evil themed party. However keep in mind that the campaign assumes you’re a bunch of heroes looking to save a town from terrible evils, so it will be necessary for you to find motivation for your characters to do this even if they are evil. Committing atrocities that are likely to see the town rise up against will severely limit your ability to continue and engage in the campaign so it’s important that if you do play evil characters they are subtle and careful about it.
On the other hand if you decide to play chaotic characters then you’ll need to find reasons to work together with your fellow players and to also work towards saving the village.
Obviously neutral and good characters...
Seems like massive overkill. There's no reason to limit alignments further, for NY game you're going to run.
Especially not to "Within one step of this". LG, LN, or NG only? Why?
There's nothing in that which prevents CG, CN, and N characters from working with people of those alignment. At all. By a remark you make later you seem to be suggesting that Chaotic means you have no loyalty or obligation to anyone, which simply isn't true.
Likewise Evil characters can do good things for selfish reasons just fine.
You could have (and a few novelists have) a party entirely comprised of Evil characters, still doing a save the world plot.
"Why are you trying to save the world?"
"All my stuff is here."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Question: Why are creatures treated one way and spells another?
From the Bestiary, pages 311-312:
"Evil Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the evil-aligned outer planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned."
The Bestiary has similar statements regarding creatures with the other alignment subtypes.
I see that and I see the rules of the game saying that Subtype does mot equate to Alignment.
A devil has both the Lawful and Evil subtypes. Law and Evil suffuse his very being, make up everything he is, and empower his every action. He flies through the air thanks to the power of Evil (and Law). He casts spells, Evil. He picks his nose, Evil.
Every action, whether relevant or extremely irrelevant, that he accomplishes is thanks to the power of Evil; without its energy making up his very being, he would not exist.
And according to the rules of the game, it's still a crapshoot whether he's evil or not. His Subtype has no bearing on his Alignment, nor vice versa. That devil's very devil-ness is contingent on his retaining the Evil and Lawful subtypes, but he can, in fact, be whatever alignment he wants.
So if a being of pure Evil and Law has freedom of choice and can have all of his deeds, his behaviors, his motivations, everything about him (all of which, I remind you, is thanks to the power of Evil) outweigh the power with which he derives his ability to do all of that, then why would an alignment subtype on a spell work differently?
You summon a celestial hound to attack a toddler. Power of Good or not, you've done an evil thing. You draw on the power of Evil to provide healing for some toddler you just get attacked by a glowy hound. Good deed, through and through.
and maybe you've now infected the toddler you injured in the first place with an affinity for diabolic power associated with this energy that healed him when he was a child.
Rejoice! You've recruited another soul for Hell! Chalk another one up on the board of evil!
Evil doing good deeds is serving itself...the deed generates more Evil, showing the flexibility and willingness of Evil to take any action, good or evil, to further its ends. The act becomes at best neutral, and far more likely simply more evil.
"Look, I'm evil, and I can use the power of Evil to heal this child! And I can summon up a Celestial Hound to murder the babe if I wish, nyah, nyah!"
It's the insidious nature of evil that is most dangerous. Using logic to justify using the power of evil has them glowing with approval for your choices.
==Aelryinth
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe, might be, could be.
But aren't.
Because that's not what the spell does.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Being able to forcefully convert someone to a life of unrepentant evil with a 1st level spell (no save) seems a bit extreme to me.
Being able to forcefully convert someone to a life of unrepentant evil with a 1st level spell (no save) seems a bit extreme to me.
But surely something Evil would love to have happen, right?
Psychological effects when young can have massive ramifications. It's an Evil spell. Healing spells, in return, aren't Good. What exactly would the effect be of subjecting a toddler to Evil at that age? We dunno. And Evil probably doesn't want us to find out, hehehe.=+Aelryinth
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Being able to forcefully convert someone to a life of unrepentant evil with a 1st level spell (no save) seems a bit extreme to me.But surely something Evil would love to have happen, right?
Psychological effects when young can have massive ramifications. It's an Evil spell. Healing spells, in return, aren't Good. What exactly would the effect be of subjecting a toddler to Evil at that age? We dunno. And Evil probably doesn't want us to find out, hehehe.=+Aelryinth
You know, I haven't actually looked at Infernal Healing in a while so I decided to again and saw something interesting.
"You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1. This ability cannot repair damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells or effects with the good descriptor. The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment."
Who the hell is using infernal healing on a child anyway?
Someone who needs to heal a child and doesn't have access to cure light wounds? It's very effective even at CL 1 too, more so than CLW, so really it would be irresponsible for the level 1 arcane caster to NOT use it to heal the child.
You called it a slippery slope before. That means that all it is is one action that might lead to another. And also might not. All that's necessary to avoid the slippery slope is to recognize that one deed, no matter what sort of energy is used to empower it, does not dictate or excuse any other deed.
You cast Infernal Healing. So what? You're not beholden to do anything else using Evil energy. If you do, and it's not just a deed empowered by Evil but an evil act, that's on you.
Now, if only Wizards had to have some modicum of Intelligence, possibly as a primary stat...
and maybe you've now infected the toddler you injured in the first place with an affinity for diabolic power associated with this energy that healed him when he was a child.
Rejoice! You've recruited another soul for Hell! Chalk another one up on the board of evil!
Evil doing good deeds is serving itself...the deed generates more Evil, showing the flexibility and willingness of Evil to take any action, good or evil, to further its ends. The act becomes at best neutral, and far more likely simply more evil.
"Look, I'm evil, and I can use the power of Evil to heal this child! And I can summon up a Celestial Hound to murder the babe if I wish, nyah, nyah!"
It's the insidious nature of evil that is most dangerous. Using logic to justify using the power of evil has them glowing with approval for your choices.
==Aelryinth
Kinda like how using protection From Energy (Cold) on a toddler turns him into a fire elemental...
Right...
So not PCs, got it.
Why not PCs?
So not PCs, got it.Why not PCs?
Probably because they have a wand of cure light wounds just sitting around... though I don't know why as a wand of Infernal Healing is just more cost effective if you have the time to let its run its course.
You called it a slippery slope before. That means that all it is is one action that might lead to another. And also might not. All that's necessary to avoid the slippery slope is to recognize that one deed, no matter what sort of energy is used to empower it, does not dictate or excuse any other deed.
You cast Infernal Healing. So what? You're not beholden to do anything else using Evil energy. If you do, and it's not just a deed empowered by Evil but an evil act, that's on you.
Now, if only Wizards had to have some modicum of Intelligence, possibly as a primary stat...
YOu mean, if wizards had some modicum of wisdom, and realized that this applied to them, and that they cannot safely ignore it just because they are smart. Because we all know wizards and geniuses are not arrogant, somewhat crazy people whose very intelligence they think sets them above and beyond what normal people have to be afraid of.
No, no, I can't see any wizard ever deciding that frequent use of Evil magic will have absolutely no long term effects on his alignment. It would never happen, ever. Just like using evil magic if it is more effective then good magic would ever be something they would logically stoop to, and evil methodology as more effective then good methodology, and cheaper, easier, faster ways to get knowledge would be more effective then having to do the work and earn it...
Nope, nope, can't see that happening at all.
==Aelryinth
and maybe you've now infected the toddler you injured in the first place with an affinity for diabolic power associated with this energy that healed him when he was a child.
Rejoice! You've recruited another soul for Hell! Chalk another one up on the board of evil!
Evil doing good deeds is serving itself...the deed generates more Evil, showing the flexibility and willingness of Evil to take any action, good or evil, to further its ends. The act becomes at best neutral, and far more likely simply more evil.
"Look, I'm evil, and I can use the power of Evil to heal this child! And I can summon up a Celestial Hound to murder the babe if I wish, nyah, nyah!"
It's the insidious nature of evil that is most dangerous. Using logic to justify using the power of evil has them glowing with approval for your choices.
==Aelryinth
Kinda like how using protection From Energy (Cold) on a toddler turns him into a fire elemental...
Right...
There's an alignment Cold? News to me!
:)
You're mistaking forced alignment change for the psychological ramifications of associating evil magic with healing, especially on a developing psyche. The game doesn't go into the implications, but the game doesn't cover a lot of ground with alignment and psychology and whatnot.
We also have no real world basis for what it's like to be affected by magic that has a spiritual alignment, so taking a haughty route simply has no basis in fact.
Paizo has said that continued use of evil magic starts turning you evil...it's an intrinsically evil act to use it, you are making the choice to use Evil magic, and it's going to have ramifications. That's as far as they've gone with it.
If all you think is that Evil power is just power, and the USE of it is what is important...via the current game, you are WRONG. But that's a house rule, and certainly something that Evil would like you to think, isn't it?
Just keep in mind the seductive and tempting side of Evil, and remember that intelligent and rational folk are just as susceptible to the Seven Sins as anyone else.
==Aelryinth
Well... If the Wizard is worried that simply casting spells woth the [evil] descriptor will affect his alignment, then all he needs to do is carry a wand of Protection From Evil to cast it.
If casting PFE has no effect on his alignment, then neither does casting IH.
I wasn't aware that Prot/evil stopped the effects of willing alignment change. Where is that at?
==Aelryinth
If casting [Evil] spells make you Evil-er, then casting [Good] spells makes you Good-er, therefore keeping your alignment intact.
By a remark you make later you seem to be suggesting that Chaotic means you have no loyalty or obligation to anyone, which simply isn't true.
It's because I've often seen people use a chaotic alignment to screw over other players.
Likewise Evil characters can do good things for selfish reasons just fine.
You could have (and a few novelists have) a party entirely comprised of Evil characters, still doing a save the world plot.
Certainly. And as long as the players had put that thought into it I'd be happy to run an evil aligned party.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
And I've seen people use the Lawful alignment to screw over the players ("I have my code and I will never break it! Yes, even if it means derailing the plot because my character is an inflexible tool and I like him that way.").
Dicks are dicks no matter what initials they write on their character sheets.
Who the hell is using infernal healing on a child anyway?
According to the example, the same guy using a Celestial Hound to randomly injure him. Just to prove he can.
==Aelryinth