Marvel's Avengers (The Infinity War - Parts 1 and 2)!


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You know, that I think it about the MCU has never really established the Superheroes Don't Kill People Rule. With the exception of Spiderman, Black Panther and Doctor Strange (who was still ok with the bad guys being sent to nightmare realm for all eternity), none of the heroes MCU in the films at least have qualms with killing people when necessary. I don't have a problem with that per say, but I think that's one of the major reasons bad guys don't come back.


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Delightful wrote:
Yeah, I'm really not all that annoyed that Marvel has killed off most of their villains. With the exception of Killgrave none of theguys on your list were really that compelling in my opinion. Best to move on and try again with another bad guy.

Ah, but here's the thing- Loki USED to be just as crappy as Yellowjacket. Pre-scarring Crossbones was actually a VERY good Cap antagonist while playing second fiddle to the Winter Soldier.

Yes, Yellowjacket was never going to be THAT great, but that simply illuminates two problems Marvel continues to have:

1. Most of their villains just aren't that compelling.
2. They use guys like Dixie cups when they could have been brought back for at least one more outing.

Getting back to what started me down this tangent- An army of faceless soldiers is quite stale at this point- and they lack dramatic impact.

Did anyone REALLY think any of the heroes were in danger from the Chitauri? Did anyone think one of Hela's undead mooks was going to do anything serious to anyone whose name we knew?

I'm not saying Killgrave or Crossbones or Yellowjacket needed to headline another movie or season- they didn't. I'm saying that putting them in lockup or having them escape immediate consequences (like Rumlow/Crossbones), then having someone like, say, Zemo (who they DIDN'T waste, hurrah!) break them out to form a team gives the bad guys more street cred- and raises the stakes in their fight.

One of the reasons Both Winter Soldier and Civil War worked as well as they did was that neither involved just one antagonist and a bunch of faceless goons. Civil War had established characters fighting each other (while debuting Spider-Man and Black Panther), and even Winter Soldier had the titular character being assisted by characters whose bonafides we had gotten to see (mostly Rumlow, yes, but the rest of STRIKE had also gotten to show off).

The faceless armies are no longer dramatic- in Star Wars, the Stormtroopers long ago demonstrated that faceless morons marching in ranks never get to even seriously injure cinematic protagonists. Lord of the Rings got a little mileage out of its orc armies, but even Boromir got killed by a recognizable character Uruku-Hai.

By preserving some of their only semi-baked baddies, Marvel gives us guys who can have some gravitas without actually needing all that much screentime- as it stands, if I want to build a Masters of Evil lineup, I'm stuck with pretty much just Zemo, Abomination, and "we-never-saw-Ultron-actually-die."


Zemo still got wasted because they clearly didn't make him a threat. Also I miss the hood.

Also Cole, we might get Kilgrave back. I mean it's still within his power set to regenerate. (See what I did there?) ;)

As for the Masters, we still haven't seen either Enchantress or Radioactive Man maybe.


Yeah, but Kilgrave isn't going to show up in the movies, and if he did he would probably be played by a different actor with different characteristics.


Cole,

I think you just nailed the reason why I don't care if villains come back.

Most of them aren't interesting in the first place and thus in my eyes are already faceless stormtroopers that our heroes have to defeat.

Iron Monger, Whiplash, Malekith, Red Skull, Crossbones, Yellowjacket, Ultron, The Abomination, Ronan, and that evil wizard whose actor who played Hannibal Lector, either didn't leave an impression or served their purpose for fulfilling the hero's arc.

Trying to develop them further beyond a cameo just seems pointless to me, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

The few villains that did work, Loki and Vulture, have been spared so I at least think Marvel is willing to bring people back when they know they have a real compelling antagonist.

Honestly, I just think I'm not all that interested in a Masters of Evil plot. One, because it's almost definitely not going to happen and two, because I prefer Marvel focus more on their cosmic stuff.

Thomas Seitz,

I thought Zeno served his purpose will in Civil War, but in all honesty, I never really cared much for Zemo in the first place.

I really, really, hope that death actually has meaning in the MCU, so Killgrave staying dead is fine by my book.


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Cole Deschain wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Yeah, I'm really not all that annoyed that Marvel has killed off most of their villains. With the exception of Killgrave none of theguys on your list were really that compelling in my opinion. Best to move on and try again with another bad guy.

Ah, but here's the thing- Loki USED to be just as crappy as Yellowjacket. Pre-scarring Crossbones was actually a VERY good Cap antagonist while playing second fiddle to the Winter Soldier.

Yes, Yellowjacket was never going to be THAT great, but that simply illuminates two problems Marvel continues to have:

1. Most of their villains just aren't that compelling.
2. They use guys like Dixie cups when they could have been brought back for at least one more outing.

Getting back to what started me down this tangent- An army of faceless soldiers is quite stale at this point- and they lack dramatic impact.

Did anyone REALLY think any of the heroes were in danger from the Chitauri? Did anyone think one of Hela's undead mooks was going to do anything serious to anyone whose name we knew?

I'm not saying Killgrave or Crossbones or Yellowjacket needed to headline another movie or season- they didn't. I'm saying that putting them in lockup or having them escape immediate consequences (like Rumlow/Crossbones), then having someone like, say, Zemo (who they DIDN'T waste, hurrah!) break them out to form a team gives the bad guys more street cred- and raises the stakes in their fight.

One of the reasons Both Winter Soldier and Civil War worked as well as they did was that neither involved just one antagonist and a bunch of faceless goons. Civil War had established characters fighting each other (while debuting Spider-Man and Black Panther), and even Winter Soldier had the titular character being assisted by characters whose bonafides we had gotten to see (mostly Rumlow, yes, but the rest of STRIKE had also gotten to show off).

The faceless armies are no longer dramatic- in Star Wars, the Stormtroopers long ago demonstrated that...

1) Not sure at all what you mean by "Loki USED to be just as crappy as Yellowjacket". Loki's always been on a completely different scale as an antagonist than any villain version of Yellowjacket.

2) Personally, I'm perfectly fine in heroic action movies with having the heroes fighting mooks and knowing they won't actually be killed by them. Or for that matter, generally knowing they won't be killed at all. In a team movie it's possible someone will die, but with a solo hero, it's not going to happen. Just like you know the bad guys will be defeated in the end. [spoiler]Thanos loses. He doesn't actually get to sacrifice the universe (or even the Earth) to his beloved Death.[spoiler] It's how that happens that's fun to watch and I don't actually need heroes dying to enjoy that or care about it.

3) One of the things you can do with hordes of mooks is put a lot of people in danger. They may not be our heroes, but the heroes care about it anyway. One of the Black Order may pose a bigger threat to the Black Panther than the whole army, but having the army makes it a threat to Wakanda.

4) As I said before, Marvel's got enough mid-tier villains they don't need to reuse them. They can afford to waste them. It's not like they're making so many movies they're going to run out anytime soon.
I'm actually wary of rushing any of the villain team up groups anyway. They generally each had multiple solo appearances before teaming up, with many other enemies and stories in between. Seems weird to push individual minor villains that hard. Bring on new ones.


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The other thing that was kind of interesting in the comics was that at one point, Marvel actively *killed off* a good chunk of the C and D list villains in the Massacare at the Bar With No Name via Scourge Of The Underworld (not to be confused with Skurge The Executioner)

Some of them managed to survive, but it was very much open season on the 'low hanging fruit'.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


The other thing that was kind of interesting in the comics was that at one point, Marvel actively *killed off* a good chunk of the C and D list villains in the Massacare at the Bar With No Name via Scourge Of The Underworld (not to be confused with Skurge The Executioner)

Some of them managed to survive, but it was very much open season on the 'low hanging fruit'.

As far as low hanging fruit goes. I always liked the scene in infinity(comic) when the planet (universe(multiverse?)) is about to be destroyed a ton of villains are sitting around toasting to the heros one last failure before the world is destroyed. Punisher walks into their little bar armed to the teeth. frank: "I was always told you can't take it with you... so what am I going to do with all these bullets?"


Vid,

It was just before the last Incursion in the lead up to Secret Wars 2015.


Hmm that sounds right. found website to read comics online been reading a lot of them lately. just finished all the cancerverse stuff.


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Yep that came before, while Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning were still writing buddies.

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Some of them managed to survive, but it was very much open season on the 'low hanging fruit'.

And then Scourge himself lasted even briefer a time than most of the jobbers he blew away, which is hilarious. His new villain stink lasted about as long as a Yankee Candle.

Anywho, I would have liked for Maya Henderson to have lived, and Crossbones. Those two could have made interesting Masters of Evil/Thunderbolts, eventually.


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thejeff wrote:
1) Not sure at all what you mean by "Loki USED to be just as crappy as Yellowjacket". Loki's always been on a completely different scale as an antagonist than any villain version of Yellowjacket.

I'm talking about the movies.

You know, the ones where it took Loki three films to become anything but a sad-eyed punching bag who, for a god of mischief, was about as clever as a 14 year old.

Quote:
2) Personally, I'm perfectly fine in heroic action movies with having the heroes fighting mooks and knowing they won't actually be more than passingly inconvenienced by them.

And I used to be... until the first Cap movie, Avengers 1 and 2, Thor 2 and 3, Iron Man 2 and 3, and Guardians of the Galaxy 1 and 2 all gave us Dixie Cup hordes.

To say nothing of DC getting in on the game in Justice League.

It's one thing when the faceless hordes are used to explain what the police/army/Jedi order are doing while all of this mess goes down- throw the National Guard at the Chitauri, by all means, to explain why our heroes lack covering fire as they engage the giant space-leviathan things, or send Sakaarans to explain why the Nova Corps and Ravagers aren't helping dogpile Ronan, and so forth.
It's another when they're patently present just so the lower power-tier guys aren't just on "evacuate the civvies" detail.

Quote:
3) One of the things you can do with hordes of mooks is put a lot of people in danger. They may not be our heroes, but the heroes care about it anyway. One of the Black Order may pose a bigger threat to the Black Panther than the whole army, but having the army makes it a threat to Wakanda.

'Cept these films typically do a terrible job of that (since they're trying NOT to be depressing Zach Snyder-esque gloomfests).

Quote:

4) As I said before, Marvel's got enough mid-tier villains they don't need to reuse them. They can afford to waste them. It's not like they're making so many movies they're going to run out anytime soon.

I'm actually wary of rushing any of the villain team up groups anyway. They generally each had multiple solo appearances before teaming up, with many other enemies and stories in between. Seems weird to push individual minor villains that hard. Bring on new ones.

...

"New ones" would have the same problem as the ones you have no interest in seeing again: No traction. Thus far, the only bad guys to really jitter and jive within the span of a single movie have been Vulture, Hela (not that I think bringing her back in any capacity would be all that wise from a narrative point of view), and Zemo. Killgrave got an entire season as primary antagonist on Jessica Jones to do his thing. The villains who have some oomph are the ones who get to show up more than once- and that's not just a cinematic thing.

In the comics, Doctor Doom's first outing wasn't exactly earth-shaking- the guys in charge just decided they liked him and kept bringing him back for more. Ditto Magneto, really- his status as a nuanced character took decades to arrive.

The other virtue of not cycling through your baddies like hot dogs at a county fair is that you don't have to explain who they are or where they came from when they turn up again- if we ever get to see Abomination return, we know who he is and what his schtick is. Klaw's role in Black Panther has already had its groundwork plotted out. Zemo's CLEARLY just waiting for the right sequel. Even the sad waste of Crossbones at least built on a guy that people who saw Winter Soldier already had some background on.


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Fighting hordes is standard DM practice imo. You have to give the final boss some minions or he loses out on action economy.


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I think the point is 'effective minions' versus 'a bunch of CR 1/2 minions that are AoE fodder'?


well that probably do that to often. It does give the norms something to do at least. For games I have had them fight mass hordes of minions just so they can feel cool knowing their slaying hundreds of something. I suspect the hordes are their to show how powerful the heros are. We could probably go for some stronger fights. If we are getting the black order their should be some good ones in IW.


Vid,

I'm pretty darn sure we'll get the Black Order. How much of it remains to be seen, but at least three of them (The Maw, Corvus Glavie and Promixia Midnight) are pretty bad ass/mid tier boss powers in and of themselves.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Vid,

I'm pretty darn sure we'll get the Black Order. How much of it remains to be seen, but at least three of them (The Maw, Corvus Glavie and Promixia Midnight) are pretty bad ass/mid tier boss powers in and of themselves.

Of course they have the basic problem of henchmen villains - sure they're tough, but will there be enough focus on them, in this already crowded movie to make them interesting characters, rather than just powersets to fight.


thejeff wrote:
Of course they have the basic problem of henchmen villains - sure they're tough, but will there be enough focus on them, in this already crowded movie to make them interesting characters, rather than just powersets to fight.

On the other hand, there isn't a single new hero in the mix, so there is no need to set up the protagonists. Even Thanos will only require some backstory since we've already seen him.

So there should still be some time to develop the Black Order.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I think the point is 'effective minions' versus 'a bunch of CR 1/2 minions that are AoE fodder'?

Exactly. We all know that the heroes are going to prevail, but I'd rather see four "Cap vs. Batroc" fights than a single "everyone versus the tissue paper Chitauri."

And these rather uninspiring villains who can't carry a movie on their own don't need to- they should be marshaled behind someone we DO care about and used for more engaging... engagements.


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Except the Chitauri were not tissue paper and it was very clear that if the heroes didn't do *something* significant they WERE going to lose a war of attrition, as was being promised by an open portal.

They shut it down quickly enough, but the fact remains that if they hadn't... it would have gotten desperate enough that yes, the Council's choice to use nukes would have looked 'good' on 'paper'.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Except the Chitauri were not tissue paper and it was very clear that if the heroes didn't do *something* significant they WERE going to lose a war of attrition, as was being promised by an open portal.

They shut it down quickly enough, but the fact remains that if they hadn't... it would have gotten desperate enough that yes, the Council's choice to use nukes would have looked 'good' on 'paper'.

That, and the fact (later revealed in Winter Soldier and Agents of SHIELD) that the council's decision to nuke was also a way to get rid of Hydra's enemies, aka the Avengers.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Except the Chitauri were not tissue paper

They were about as fearsome and formidable as spackle. They had numbers and the ability to delay the human-level types. Which looks like exactly what Thanos' army is going to offer us in this outing.

The leviathan transport-thingies? Different story, although they still jobbed a couple of those out to cinematic one-shotting.


To be fair a lot of enemies probably seem like tissue paper to hulk and Thor.


The Chitauri had power in numbers. Being able to wear down the Hulk is not something I would call just being a threat to the Avengers without powers.

And yes the Avengers were able to one-shot the first leviathans that came through the gate. Problem was that there were a lot more coming through. Without closing the gate they would have lost.

And regarding the next group of enemies , I think the Avengers will get a beatdown from the Black Order. This is the endgame and anything else would be a surprise.


Yeah I'm not expecting the Black Order, ESPECIALLY Corvus Glaive and Promia Midnight to show up and NOT win.

This is, after all, Thanos winnning after all.


I'm actually pretty okay if the Black Order are mostly just super minions for boss battles, or to give different heros something to occupy themselves with, if Thanos himself gets pretty well developed.


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It's going to be a very interesting balancing act.

Thanos has to *win*.

...but they need it to have enough of an 'uplifting' end that it doesn't discourage further viewing of the MCU.


Marc Radle wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Cole,

My bet: Peter Parker dies heroically to save the Earth in IF1 and Miles Morales shows up.

There is ZERO chance of that happening.

One, because this new Peter Parker / Spiderman is brand new and there’s no way they kill him so soon. Plus, Tom Holland is extremely popular - probably the best Peter Parker / Spiderman we’ve seen onscreen ever.

Two, they’ve already annonced that the Spiderman sequel with Tom Holland comes out after the first Infinity War move (it kicks of Phase 4)

I also agree there is zero chance of them killing off the Holland Peter Parker, at least not permanently. Thanos might kill Spider-Man onscreen, only for Strange to rewind time far enough to save him... which works but that change then leads to another legacy hero dying in the new altered timeline.


I think this will be The Empire Strikes Back for the MCU. I expect a very dark ending. Look at the trend in recent movies. Civil War ends with the Avengers broken up. Dr. Strange ends with him making an enemy of his strongest ally. Thor ends with, well, spoilers, but Ragnarok. The only somewhat hopeful ending was Homecoming.


well if we are talking Infinity gauntlet you could kill everyone off and as long as one of them survives to use the gauntlet set everything right after.


I'm pretty sure Thanos winning will be dark, but not dark enough that people will stop watching.

Dark Archive

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Spatial. Timeless. Reality Warping Elegance.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Spatial. Timeless. Reality Warping Elegance.

Priceless! You bring us the best gifts, Baron. :)

Dark Archive

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John Napier 698 wrote:
baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Spatial. Timeless. Reality Warping Elegance.
Priceless! You bring us the best gifts, Baron. :)

You are too kind. Kindly remind me to spare to from the benevolent firing squads when we retake The Empire.

And ever so quietly a new scene was released.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


The other thing that was kind of interesting in the comics was that at one point, Marvel actively *killed off* a good chunk of the C and D list villains in the Massacare at the Bar With No Name via Scourge Of The Underworld (not to be confused with Skurge The Executioner)

Some of them managed to survive, but it was very much open season on the 'low hanging fruit'.

As far as low hanging fruit goes. I always liked the scene in infinity(comic) when the planet (universe(multiverse?)) is about to be destroyed a ton of villains are sitting around toasting to the heros one last failure before the world is destroyed. Punisher walks into their little bar armed to the teeth. frank: "I was always told you can't take it with you... so what am I going to do with all these bullets?"

See...I hate that scene. There's people that the Punisher wouldn't stand a chance against or that were affiliated with each other.


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Yeah, but if he was doing Skurge @ Gjallerbru it's pretty much one of those 'eh, I'm going down but how many of you are going to be in my honor guard'?


Anyways, I think I'd rather we give the Infinity Gauntlet with all the stones/gems to Owen K Stephens and of course Mjolnir. Because only he is worthy.


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I really really want that watch.


doc chaos wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


The other thing that was kind of interesting in the comics was that at one point, Marvel actively *killed off* a good chunk of the C and D list villains in the Massacare at the Bar With No Name via Scourge Of The Underworld (not to be confused with Skurge The Executioner)

Some of them managed to survive, but it was very much open season on the 'low hanging fruit'.

As far as low hanging fruit goes. I always liked the scene in infinity(comic) when the planet (universe(multiverse?)) is about to be destroyed a ton of villains are sitting around toasting to the heros one last failure before the world is destroyed. Punisher walks into their little bar armed to the teeth. frank: "I was always told you can't take it with you... so what am I going to do with all these bullets?"
See...I hate that scene. There's people that the Punisher wouldn't stand a chance against or that were affiliated with each other.

People that castle wouldn't stand a chance against? I think a sudden hail of bullets clears out a least a few of them. really though I don't think it mattered that much to him they were all dead either way he just wan't to go out with a Bang (several in fact).


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I'm a bird of easy fees... just drop the Nuar racial boon in the mail and we'll talk to a guy about some stones... :P

*coughs*

Wait, what, it might unravel all of reality? Enh.


All I know is that I really want Thanos to win. :p


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And he kind of has to *Win-Win* in ESB style.

Because anything less than that and he's going to be laughed at.


Yeah. I mean it's the difference between Empire Strikes Back kind of win, versus Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows Part I.


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Infinity War - Thanos wins, shatters known MCU

Avengers 4 - Avengers reassemble the universe, only to accidentally incorporate parts of other universes, too . . . mutants, Fantastic 4, and Doom join the MCU without need for new origin stories . . . it may also open up a route for Kang to find the MCU.

Phase 4 - dealing with the aftermath of the newly-reformed universe...


KahnyaGnorc wrote:

Infinity War - Thanos wins, shatters known MCU

Avengers 4 - Avengers reassemble the universe, only to accidentally incorporate parts of other universes, too . . . mutants, Fantastic 4, and Doom join the MCU without need for new origin stories . . . it may also open up a route for Kang to find the MCU.

Phase 4 - dealing with the aftermath of the newly-reformed universe...

X-Men maybe.

The FF kind of need a new origin story. Or at least not adopting the recent movie version.


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Yeah the only thing they need to do is bring back Michael Chiklis as Ben Grimm.

Otherwise Kahnya is correct.


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He really did look the part. (*snicker*) he was a good thing.


He was a great Ben Grimm.

If/When they bring the FF into the MCU I hope they go back to the cosmic rays/outer space origin.


Dragon,

They still have that.

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