Shurikens as ranged weapons


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 172 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Tarantula wrote:
That's fine. It doesn't matter that they are synonyms. What matters is that you cannot make an attack with an unloaded bow. If you can't make an attack, then the fact that you can reload the bow as part of an attack is moot, because you cannot make an attack.

Only if you insist that an unloaded bow is not 'wielded'. I see no Pathfinder rules that equates wielding a bow with having an arrow nocked, but I would be fine with any link or quote demonstrating otherwise.

If an unloaded bow is considered 'wielded' then yes, you can make an AoO with it as per the Snapshot feat. And yes, you can reload it for free prior to the shot as per the FAQ.

And strictly this:

Quote:
What matters is that you cannot make an attack with an unloaded bow.

is either a tautology or wrong. That's like telling an archer he can't 'attack' on his turn because his bow is unloaded. Um yeah, he loads it as part of his attack, just like the Snapshot FAQ.

The only open question is whether an un-nocked bow is counted as 'wielded'. I believe that it is. I don't think bows go from being wielded to unwielded every time they are fired.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Start the attack? Are you making up actions now? There is no 'starting an attack' action, there is the ranged AoO action which we are discussing. The feat says you can make a ranged AoO action with a wielded bow. The FAQ says you can reload the bow as part of your AoO action.

If you don't have an arrow ready, you can't attack. If you are not attacking, you can't reload. Period. Or are you saying because the feat says you can make an AoO with the ranged weapon, that you don't need arrows at all, since the feat says you can!

That aside, how often do you really run around WITHOUT an arrow in the bow?

Draw the bow? Its a free action to draw an arrow with it so its ready to shoot.

Shoot the bow? Its a free action to draw an arrow so its stays ready to shoot.

Why would you ever have your bow without an arrow in the first place?


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Start the attack? Are you making up actions now? There is no 'starting an attack' action, there is the ranged AoO action which we are discussing. The feat says you can make a ranged AoO action with a wielded bow. The FAQ says you can reload the bow as part of your AoO action.
If you don't have an arrow ready, you can't attack. If you are not attacking, you can't reload. Period. Or are you saying because the feat says you can make an AoO with the ranged weapon, that you don't need arrows at all, since the feat says you can!

Um, no, the FAQ that says you get a free action load as part of the AoO is crucial. Without the FAQ I would agree with you, but then without the FAQ, you would only get the one AoO attack and couldn't reload period.

But please, lets stick to pathfinder-defined actions, instead of this 'arrow ready' condition you invented. The ranged AoO is triggered when you have a wielded ranged weapon, not an 'arrow ready' weapon. You get a free action load as part of the AoO action that has been triggered, therefore you can attack with the bow after your free action load as part of your AoO.

Quote:


That aside, how often do you really run around WITHOUT an arrow in the bow?

Draw the bow? Its a free action to draw an arrow with it so its ready to shoot.

Shoot the bow? Its a free action to draw an arrow so its stays ready to shoot.

Why would you ever have your bow without an arrow in the first place?

Sure, most times it shouldn't matter, unless you get a DM who rules that since you didn't specifically say that you used a free action to nock your bow after the attack on your turn, you don't have one ready for your snapshot AoO.

And seeing some of the DMs on these boards... ;)


_Ozy_, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make by the reload word. For me at least, the reload word clarified the idea that a weilded weapon is also a loaded one in the case of a ranged weapon.

This would mean default assumption is that if you are wielding a bow or a crossbow or whatever it is loaded, and if it isn't loaded you aren't wielding it, you are just carrying it.

Snap shot requires you to be wielding it. For a ranged weapon with a free action ammunition reload this doesn't matter a whole lot. As you correctly point out, when it happens exactly (load before a shot or reload after a shot) doesn't have any perceptible difference. However, for a shuriken there is a slight difference, as unlike with a bow and its ammunition when you clearly have the bow wielded or not and no one could be confused, with a shuriken it is not clear if it is wielded.

If we propose that the reload is significant, that wielding a bow includes having an arrow in it, then wielding a shuriken includes also having it in hand (which makes sense) and everyone (DM and player) can clearly know if the player is wielding a shurikan or not, and everything is pretty clear.

One difference would be where I had another ability that required a free hand. For example, if I have deflect arrows and I am wielding a sword in one hand, in any given round I could wield my shuriken (possibly throwing and replacing many times) or I could leave my hand free to deflect an arrow. With the interpretation I am proposing you make this choice clearly by the end of your turn (when you may have taken actions or free actions to change wielding) and everything is clear. If we don't do it this way, then we have to question whether I can wield my sword (possibly getting an AoO or two with it), catch an arrow with my free hand, and also instantly unfree my hand to wield a shurikan and make AoOs with that. Much more confusing for everyone.


Dave Justus wrote:
_Ozy_, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make by the reload word. For me at least, the reload word clarified the idea that a weilded weapon is also a loaded one in the case of a ranged weapon.

I didn't miss it, I disagreed with it. And I supported that disagreement by pointing to Pathfinder rules that treat load and reload as identical. I don't think load and reload have anything to do with wielded with respect to ranged weapons.

Quote:


This would mean default assumption is that if you are wielding a bow or a crossbow or whatever it is loaded, and if it isn't loaded you aren't wielding it, you are just carrying it.

And every time you fire your bow, it goes from wielded to unwielded? Multiple times a round? While I suppose one could insist on this interpretation for the word 'wielding', I would like to see that supported somewhere, anywhere in the Pathfinder documentation.

AFAIK, this isn't applied to melee weapons at all. As long as I'm holding my sword, I could be scratching my ass with it, digging in the dirt with it, or using it in any number of non-threatening ways, and it would still be 'wielded' for purposes of AoO.

Furthermore, given that the FAQ specifically clarifies that you can turn an 'unloaded' bow into a 'loaded' bow and take an AoO with it given combat reflexes, you have to specifically call out the property of being unloaded for the first shot as somehow qualitatively different than being unloaded for the 2nd and subsequent shots.

How on earth can you justify that?

Quote:


Snap shot requires you to be wielding it. For a ranged weapon with a free action ammunition reload this doesn't matter a whole lot. As you correctly point out, when it happens exactly (load before a shot or reload after a shot) doesn't have any perceptible difference. However, for a shuriken there is a slight difference, as unlike with a bow and its ammunition when you clearly have the bow wielded or not and no one could be confused, with a shuriken it is not clear if it is wielded.

If we propose that the reload is significant, that wielding a bow includes having an arrow in it, then wielding a shuriken includes also having it in hand (which makes sense) and everyone (DM and player) can clearly know if the player is wielding a shurikan or not, and everything is pretty clear.

One difference would be where I had another ability that required a free hand. For example, if I have deflect arrows and I am wielding a sword in one hand, in any given round I could wield my shuriken (possibly throwing and replacing many times) or I could leave my hand free to deflect an arrow. With the interpretation I am proposing you make this choice clearly by the end of your turn (when you may have taken actions or free actions to change wielding) and everything is clear. If we don't do it this way, then we have to question whether I can wield my sword (possibly getting an AoO or two with it), catch an arrow with my free hand, and also instantly unfree my hand to wield a shurikan and make AoOs with that. Much more confusing for everyone.

I agree that thrown weapons need clarification regarding the rules of 'wielding' because really, 'wielding' is not a well defined Pathfinder condition (is it defined at all?). Which, in fact, leads me to believe that they are using 'wielding' to mean holding in your hand(s) for use in combat (instead of just carrying a 2 handed weapon in one hand for example) and would indicate that you can't use a thrown weapon with the snapshot feat unless you are holding it already.

Basically, snapshot needs a FAQ for thrown weapons.

Ah, found something:

Quote:

Elven Battle Training (Combat, Elf)

You have been specially trained to wield a variety of traditional elven weapons.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, elf.

Benefit: You have received special training with traditional elven weapons (longbows, composite longbows, longswords, rapiers, shortbows, composite shortbows, and any weapon with the word “elven” in its name). You receive a +2 bonus to your CMD against disarm and sunder maneuvers directed at one of these weapons you are wielding.

So, do you only get the +2 when you have an arrow nocked?

;)


_Ozy_ wrote:
So, do you only get the +2 when you have an arrow nocked?

Yes, in a way, because the assumption is that wielded bows do indeed have arrows nocked. This assumption is not explicitly stated anywhere that I am aware of, but the use of the word reload instead of load in the FAQ indicates that it is one the developers are making.

It seems you are kinda agreeing with the wielding as I am using it for a thrown weapon, being in the hand (or at least specifically allocated to a hand, making the hand not 'free') so essentially we have come to the same conclusion.

I don't think any other of our disagreements have any practical difference to the rules, only making slight differences in how we envision a scene.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Um, no, the FAQ that says you get a free action load as part of the AoO is crucial. Without the FAQ I would agree with you, but then without the FAQ, you would only get the one AoO attack and couldn't reload period.

The feat does not let you attack if you do not have an arrow.

_Ozy_ wrote:
But please, lets stick to pathfinder-defined actions, instead of this 'arrow ready' condition you invented. The ranged AoO is triggered when you have a wielded ranged weapon, not an 'arrow ready' weapon. You get a free action load as part of the AoO action that has been triggered, therefore you can attack with the bow after your free action load as part of your AoO.

Sure. You ready the bow, as a free action you nock an arrow. Every time you shoot, you free action reload the bow. Problem solved.


Dave Justus wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
So, do you only get the +2 when you have an arrow nocked?
Yes, in a way, because the assumption is that wielded bows do indeed have arrows nocked. This assumption is not explicitly stated anywhere that I am aware of, but the use of the word reload instead of load in the FAQ indicates that it is one the developers are making.

In a way? It's either yes or no. You would really rule, at your table, with you as the DM that the feat Elven Battle Training would not apply to a bow unless it had an arrow nocked? And you would expect your players not to think you just lost your mind?

When your assumption causes a ridiculous result, maybe you should rethink your assumption, especially since it isn't stated anywhere in the actual rules.

Furthermore, your belief that load and reload mean something different is also contradicted in several places in the rules that I posted, such as the hand crossbow.

Go ahead and try to explain the hand crossbow description with 'load' and 'reload' having different meanings.

Also, let's take a Holy Bow +1:

Quote:
It bestows one permanent negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded.

Either wielded means holding it, like the description says, or an evil creature only gets a negative level when an arrow is nocked? Ridiculous. Just like with the hand crossbow, you have two concepts 'in hand' and 'wielded' that are used interchangeably.

Or maybe the call weapon spell:

Quote:
You cause a weapon wielded by an ally within 30 feet to telekinetically fly across the space between you and into your open hand.

Only works on a bow when it has an arrow nocked?

or maybe this creature:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-zuish in

Quote:

Holy Weapons (Su)

Any weapon wielded by a zuishin is treated as if it had the holy special ability. A zuishin creates arrows out of nothing as part of its attacks with any bow it wields.

How can it create an arrow if an arrow has to be nocked for the bow to be wielded?

Seriously guys, how much of the rules do I need to quote here? Do you have anything, anything at all that backs up your assumptions?

Quote:


It seems you are kinda agreeing with the wielding as I am using it for a thrown weapon, being in the hand (or at least specifically allocated to a hand, making the hand not 'free') so essentially we have come to the same conclusion.

I don't think any other of our disagreements have any practical difference to the rules, only making slight differences in how we envision a scene.

Yeah, seems like wielded means 'in hand' whether it's a thrown weapon, ranged weapon, or melee weapon. Therefore, since the snapshot feat activates an AoO with a 'wielded' weapon, clearly you don't need to have an arrow nocked to activate the feat, but it seems like you do need a shuriken in hand.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Um, no, the FAQ that says you get a free action load as part of the AoO is crucial. Without the FAQ I would agree with you, but then without the FAQ, you would only get the one AoO attack and couldn't reload period.
The feat does not let you attack if you do not have an arrow.

If you mean 'do not have an arrow nocked' it most certainly does. The feat gives you the AoO with a wielded bow, the FAQ clarifies that you can free action load before you shoot.

You keep disagreeing, but you don't actually point out the words that support your disagreement. You've already conceded that 'reload' and 'load' are indeed the same, so which sentence or word are you relying on to say you can't free action load as part of your AoO?

Quote:


_Ozy_ wrote:
But please, lets stick to pathfinder-defined actions, instead of this 'arrow ready' condition you invented. The ranged AoO is triggered when you have a wielded ranged weapon, not an 'arrow ready' weapon. You get a free action load as part of the AoO action that has been triggered, therefore you can attack with the bow after your free action load as part of your AoO.
Sure. You ready the bow, as a free action you nock an arrow. Every time you shoot, you free action reload the bow. Problem solved.

Yup that works. This does too:

You have an unloaded bow. It's your turn to attack so you take a free action to reload it and shoot.

You have snapshot, snapshot says you can get an AoO with a wielded bow, FAQ says you can free action to reload it as part of the AoO so, just like your normal attack you take a free action to reload it and you shoot.

Note, feel free to use the word 'load' instead of 'reload' in either of the above statements as the terms are identical.

Maybe it seems like I'm being argumentative over nothing, but I've also had DM's be dicks about walking around with a constantly loaded bow/crossbow.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Um, no, the FAQ that says you get a free action load as part of the AoO is crucial. Without the FAQ I would agree with you, but then without the FAQ, you would only get the one AoO attack and couldn't reload period.
The feat does not let you attack if you do not have an arrow.
If you mean 'do not have an arrow nocked' it most certainly does. The feat gives you the AoO with a wielded bow, the FAQ clarifies that you can free action load before you shoot.

The FAQ does not specify you can free action load before you shoot. The FAQ states:

Quote:
As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

You say you can make an attack without an arrow. How is that possible?

_Ozy_ wrote:
You keep disagreeing, but you don't actually point out the words that support your disagreement. You've already conceded that 'reload' and 'load' are indeed the same, so which sentence or word are you relying on to say you can't free action load as part of your AoO?

The fact that you cannot make an attack without an arrow. If you can't make the attack, you can't reload your bow as part of it.

_Ozy_ wrote:

Yup that works. This does too:

You have an unloaded bow. It's your turn to attack so you take a free action to reload it and shoot.

Your turn to attack? No problem at all. Its your turn, you are allowed to take free actions on your turn.

_Ozy_ wrote:
You have snapshot, snapshot says you can get an AoO with a wielded bow, FAQ says you can free action to reload it as part of the AoO so, just like your normal attack you take a free action to reload it and you shoot.

Snapshot does not provide an exception allowing to make an attack with a bow without an arrow. Because there is no exception, you must have an arrow to attack with the bow. Because you don't have an arrow, you can't attack. Because you can't attack, you can't reload it as part of an attack.

_Ozy_ wrote:

Note, feel free to use the word 'load' instead of 'reload' in either of the above statements as the terms are identical.

Maybe it seems like I'm being argumentative over nothing, but I've also had DM's be dicks about walking around with a constantly loaded bow/crossbow.

That's exactly why I'm continuing. The normal case would be anytime you ready the bow, you draw an arrow as a free action along with it. Anytime its your turn to shoot a bow, you can normally take a free action to draw an arrow before and/or after your shoot, so if you didn't have an arrow, you can draw and shoot and draw again, or if you did have an arrow you can shoot and then draw.

If you readied your bow, and explicitly stated that you did not ready an arrow with it, you could not shoot it until you took a free action (on your turn) to load/reload it. Having someone provoke an AoO if you are unable to make the attack doesn't let you take a free action to then be able to make the attack. The best analogy I have for this is quick drawing a melee weapon to make a melee AoO. It is not allowed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tarantula wrote:


The FAQ does not specify you can free action load before you shoot.

It absolutely does.

The FAQ states:

Quote:
As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

You are making a ranged AoO via the snapshot feat. AS PART OF that ranged AoO you can load/reload your bow. Therefore, you absolutely, 100% can load/reload before you take the shot. 'As part of' does not mean after, just like when you draw a weapon AS PART OF a move action does not mean that you have to draw the weapon after your move.

Quote:


You say you can make an attack without an arrow. How is that possible?

Ah, I think I see the confusion. You are confusing an AoO with an attack roll or action. These are two completely different things.

The feat snapshot gives you an AoO, not an 'attack action', and as part of that AoO granted by the feat you can absolutely load your bow (per the FAQ), and then you can make your attack roll.

So no, I'm not saying that you can attack without an arrow, I'm saying, or rather the feat is saying that you get an AoO without an arrow nocked. Read the feat, you need to be wielding a bow, that's it.

You seem to think that you don't get an AoO unless you have an arrow nocked.

This is wrong.

The feat says, explicitly and exactly, that you get an AoO when you are wielding a bow.

So, wielding a bow? Check. Ok, I get a ranged AoO with the wielded bow. Now, what can I do with that bow? Without the FAQ, I could fire off a readied arrow, since normally you can't take free actions to load your bow if it's not your turn.

However, because of the FAQ, I can reload AS PART OF that granted AoO. So now:

Ok, I get a ranged AoO with the bow. What? No arrow nocked? That's ok, the FAQ says that as part of that ranged AoO (which has already been granted via the feat) I can reload my bow. Great! I reload then shoot.

To emphasize, the feat grants a ranged AoO not a ranged attack action. As part of that ranged AoO I can choose to make a ranged attack roll and, thanks to the FAQ, I can also load my bow first.

Quote:


The fact that you cannot make an attack without an arrow. If you can't make the attack, you can't reload your bow as part of it.

Once again, you are confusing an AoO with an attack roll.

Two different things.

Quote:
If you readied your bow, and explicitly stated that you did not ready an arrow with it, you could not shoot it until you took a free action (on your turn) to load/reload it. Having someone provoke an AoO if you are unable to make the attack doesn't let you take a free action to then be able to make the attack. The best analogy I have for this is quick drawing a melee weapon to make a melee AoO. It is not allowed.

Yup, except that the FAQ for the feat explicitly allows it. Without the FAQ you are right. With the FAQ you are wrong.

If there was a similar FAQ allowing a quick draw as part of an AoO, then the comparison would be comparable...in fact:

Quote:
A kensai may make attacks of opportunity when flat-footed, and may draw his favored weapon as a free action as part of taking an attack of opportunity.

So, using your reasoning, the Kensai can't actually attack with his weapon because he can't draw it unless he attacks with it first. Or, using my interpretation, 'as part of' means that he can draw first and make the attack second.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

FWIW

At my table the "reload" step has always played out at the top of the round...player draws ammunition and fires not fires and draws more ammunition. Thus if the player decides to change weapons on the next round then the character is only dropping the bow.

As far as I have ever seen the rules do not say what order things must happen in and draw-fire makes more sense to us. SO at our table a wielded bow is a bow in hand.

Look at it another way.

I have an archer we'll call him Legolas who has the requisite feats to do all the stuff you're arguing about and gets up to 5 AoO if conditions are right.

Using the arrow ready requirement:
So lets assume all the conditions are ideal and I have an arrow ready 5 AoO Fire-reload, fire-reload, fire-reload, fire-reload, fire-reload. but if I don't have an arrow ready in that same time Legolas stands around stupidly? Is he so confused by an unloaded bow that he loses all 5 AoOs? Or does it make more sense to say it doesn't matter when you reload and let the player have the shots. Is it so broken to let the player using shuriken "be ready to throw" and empty handed?

Sometimes RAW don't have the answer which is why we have GMs.


The Holy Bow +1 is a two handed weapon that causes a negative level by any evil creature attempting to wield it as long as it is 'in hand'. You can't seriously be arguing that I am wielding the bow if I am holding it in one hand, and carrying it while holding a sword in the other can you? So obviously holding something and wielding it are not synonyms.

I also don't see problem with a momentary (and game rules wise entirely inconsequential and invisible) state of 'unweilded' between firing an arrow and replacing it. I can't imagine arguing that in the invisible moment between throwing a shuriken and pulling out another one I am wielding a shuriken, so having a similar state for a bow is not an issue.

All of this is beside the point however. No one is arguing for the nocked/not nocked or readied/not readied concepts making any mechanical differences to the rules for bows. We aren't trying to change how bows work, we aren't calling for different action types to do anything, this concept does not change the rules for bows, and if it did, it would be incorrect since we don't have any justification for that at all.

I don't think anyone has stated any ready 'requirement' for an arrow. I at least have referred to it as an assumption, the assumption is that a wielded bow is ready to fire. The primary mechanic involved in that is that two hands have been allocated to it, since it is a two handed weapon. The only significance reload has is crystallizing that image, it doesn't have a game effect for a bow at all.

Where it has a game effect in a way is for a thrown weapon. It isn't wielded until and unless you have allocated your hand to it, which means even if you can wield it as a free action, you can't use an AoO with it unless you have done so on your turn. The reload idea for an arrow doesn't prove that, and requiring having allocated a hand to it isn't particularly based on the reload phrase either. What the reload phrase does for me at least is explain conceptually why there is a difference between firing a bow on an AoO using a free action to get your arrow out and throwing a shurikan on an AoO and using a free action to get your nasty throwing star out. If we thing of it as a reload, it is clear that it has to be wielded in hand first. If we think of it as a load, it is difficult to justify why they have to be holding the shurikan before they can take an AoO with it. However, that doesn't invent the wielded requirement, it just explains how to visualize it easier.


I think some people are mixing up their terminology. It's a free action to draw a piece of ammo. That is, to take it from its container (quiver, pouch, etc) and hold it in hand. This applies to any and all ammo; arrows, crossbow bolts, sling stones, shuriken, etc. In the case of a Bow, it's a non-action to "nock" the arrow to the bow, performed as part of the attack with the bow. In the case of a crossbow or firearm, it's greater than a free action by default, depending on the category of weapon. Now, the Snap Shot FAQ was specifically addressing the question that, if one made an AoO via Snap Shot off-turn, could they not draw another piece of ammo as a free action and then, subsequently, reload that ammo if they had the proper feats, since free actions must be performed on-turn; or was this a necessary exception to standard rules to make the system function properly. The answer ended up being the latter; after expending your shot on an AoO, you may draw an arrow as a free action (so now you're holding bow in one hand, arrow in the other), reload a crossbow or firearm with the appropriate feats, etc. That would, logically, include the act of drawing a shuriken (a free action) in preparation to throw another one. But it doesn't imply that you may preemptively draw ammo to make an AoO. Logically speaking, if, at the end of your full-attack with a bow, you neglected to draw an arrow, you wouldn't threaten with your bow even with Snap Shot. We presume, for the sake of simplicity and smoothness in the game, that the character is going to draw their next arrow in preparation to make another shot. But if you, for whatever reason, leave your hand free (say to use Snatch Arrow), then you don't threaten with your Bow using SS because you aren't properly armed with it. Likewise, with a crossbow, it needs to be already loaded in order to fire as an AoO; no matter how fast you reload, you aren't going to be able to reload and fire in response to a provoking action. You fire as response, and then reload. Same applies to Shuriken; you must have one already in-hand with which to threaten, but then subsequently you may draw replacements in the same manner you'd draw arrows from a quiver.


I don't care if you can or can't reload for the first shot, but Snap Shot makes no mention of a weapon having to be "properly armed" to threaten. So a bow with no ammo would threaten. Having ammo is a different issue. Heck, you could even use the ranged weapon as an improvised melee weapon to attack with if you don't have ammo as it never says the attack HAS to be a ranged one.

For some reason some people are adding 'loaded' to the statement "While wielding a ranged weapon". It just isn't there. I just changes the "Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon." to 'threaten 5'' and 'can make attacks of opportunity'.


Dave Justus wrote:
The Holy Bow +1 is a two handed weapon that causes a negative level by any evil creature attempting to wield it as long as it is 'in hand'. You can't seriously be arguing that I am wielding the bow if I am holding it in one hand, and carrying it while holding a sword in the other can you? So obviously holding something and wielding it are not synonyms.

I already stated a difference between carrying an object, and wielding it for combat. Surely you can't seriously believe that an evil creature using a holy bow only gets a negative level when he nocks an arrow?

And that was only one of the examples, you didn't address the creature that creates an arrow when the bow is wielded which means he can't create an arrow unless he already has nocked an arrow.

Seriously man, you're arguing a pretty ridiculous point here.

Quote:

All of this is beside the point however. No one is arguing for the nocked/not nocked or readied/not readied concepts making any mechanical differences to the rules for bows. We aren't trying to change how bows work, we aren't calling for different action types to do anything, this concept does not change the rules for bows, and if it did, it would be incorrect since we don't have any justification for that at all.

Um, Tarantula is arguing exactly that, that you don't get a snapshot AoO unless you have an arrow nocked.

And while he may be wrong on this particular point, I hardly feel it fair to demote him to 'no one'. ;)


_Ozy_ wrote:
So, using your reasoning, the Kensai can't actually attack with his weapon because he can't draw it unless he attacks with it first. Or, using my interpretation, 'as part of' means that he can draw first and make the attack second.

That is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. If the weapon is not drawn, he does not threaten squares. If he doesn't threaten squares, he cannot make an attack. He would need to threaten with some other weapon, a gauntlet, unarmed strike, spiked gauntlet, bite attack, armor spikes, whatever. But he needs to have something he threatens with before he can take the AoO and draw his favored weapon as part of the AoO.

Same thing for snap shot with a bow. Without an arrow, you can't attack. If you can't attack, you can't reload as part of the attack.

I am not saying "attack action" I am saying "attack" as in, "make an attack roll". You can't roll without having an arrow.


My interpretation of Tarantula's point about the no arrow being readied not getting an attack was theoretical, since he is assuming that indeed an arrow is always nocked and ready to fire when you are wielding the bow. If I was wrong about that I apologize to him and he can clarify. I certainly am not, and never intended any of this to change how bows work regarding the rules, merely changing how I visualize them a little.

I absolutely disagree with Tarantula about the Kensai. It is plainly obvious that Iaijutsu allows a kensai to draw and attack with his weapon and that even his sheathed weapon allows him to threat with it. This is a very specific ability though that overrides general rules. I don't see any particular way it applies to the conversation on ranged attacks of opportunity and what wielding means in general.

The focus of the question on shuriken, is whether the free action to 'load' ammunition is identical to being a free action to wield a shurikan. I believe that it is not.

It is my belief that a Shuriken has to be explicitly wielded by the end of your turn if you want to use it to generate AoO, and that doing so will make that hand not 'free' until the start of your next turn.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
So, using your reasoning, the Kensai can't actually attack with his weapon because he can't draw it unless he attacks with it first. Or, using my interpretation, 'as part of' means that he can draw first and make the attack second.
That is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. If the weapon is not drawn, he does not threaten squares. If he doesn't threaten squares, he cannot make an attack. He would need to threaten with some other weapon, a gauntlet, unarmed strike, spiked gauntlet, bite attack, armor spikes, whatever. But he needs to have something he threatens with before he can take the AoO and draw his favored weapon as part of the AoO.

Yes, that part I'm not actually disagreeing with, though I think RAI they intended for him to threaten without drawing. However the ability, as written, doesn't allow him to threaten unless he has unarmed strike or some other weapon out. That said, if he is threatening, then he can draw and strike with his favored weapon because he can draw as part of the AoO.

Quote:


Same thing for snap shot with a bow. Without an arrow,

ARGGGH! Wrong, wrong, wrong! READ THE FEAT!

When a bow is WIELDED you threaten. Period! No arrow needed! Period!

Seriously, why are you making up this arrow thing?! It exists NOWHERE in the feat requirements, wielded != arrow, anywhere!

The feat itself:

Quote:
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.

and

Quote:
While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you.

That's it. Show me the word 'arrow' anywhere in the prerequisite for threatening squares. It isn't there.

Quote:


you can't attack. If you can't attack, you can't reload as part of the attack.

I am not saying "attack action" I am saying "attack" as in, "make an attack roll". You can't roll without having an arrow.

The feat grants an AoO, not an 'attack roll'. So don't even talk about 'attack' or 'make an attack roll', talk about the AoO. You're just confusing yourself by not paying attention to what the feat gives you. It gives you a ranged AoO.

These are the things you can do with the granted AoO:

reload your bow (FAQ)
take a shot


So, if a character with snap shot and a light crossbow had the crossbow wielded, he would still threaten, and provide flanking, even if he had no bolts loaded in that crossbow?


Tarantula wrote:
So, if a character with snap shot and a light crossbow had the crossbow wielded, he would still threaten, and provide flanking, even if he had no bolts loaded in that crossbow?

Yup, he would still threaten. He just wouldn't be able to load the crossbow as part of the AoO since he can't load as a free action.

That is, unless he had rapid reload, in which case he would be treated just like the bow.

Threaten -> load -> fire

Without rapid reload, snapshot isn't very good for light crossbow users.


Dave Justus wrote:
My interpretation of Tarantula's point about the no arrow being readied not getting an attack was theoretical, since he is assuming that indeed an arrow is always nocked and ready to fire when you are wielding the bow. If I was wrong about that I apologize to him and he can clarify. I certainly am not, and never intended any of this to change how bows work regarding the rules, merely changing how I visualize them a little.

It doesn't take too much thinking to realize that constantly having an arrow nocked isn't a very good idea as it uses both your hands.

Therefore, next round if you want to use your hand to drink a potion or perform another action, you have to drop your arrow first.

It makes much more sense to free action draw an arrow as part of your attack rather than have it nocked constantly. I've looked and looked and can't find any situation in Pathfinder that provides any advantage to having an arrow nocked and ready when it comes to bow combat. No bonus to initiative, no free shot during a surprise round, nothing.

There seems to literally be no advantage in Pathfinder to having an arrow nocked before your turn, compared to drawing an arrow as part of an attack.


_Ozy_ wrote:
It gives you a ranged AoO

It grants an AoO. It doesn't have to be ranged.

Tarantula wrote:
So, if a character with snap shot and a light crossbow had the crossbow wielded, he would still threaten, and provide flanking, even if he had no bolts loaded in that crossbow?

Yes, Snap Shot doesn't say 'ranged attack', 'ranged AoO' or 'ammo' anywhere in the feat. Nothing stops him from smacking someone over their head in melee without a bolt.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
So, if a character with snap shot and a light crossbow had the crossbow wielded, he would still threaten, and provide flanking, even if he had no bolts loaded in that crossbow?

Yup, he would still threaten. He just wouldn't be able to load the crossbow as part of the AoO since he can't load as a free action.

That is, unless he had rapid reload, in which case he would be treated just like the bow.

Threaten -> load -> fire

Without rapid reload, snapshot isn't very good for light crossbow users.

How can he threaten if he can't actually make an attack?

Quote:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

If you can't attack into the square, you can't threaten. The fact that snap shot says "you threaten squares within 5 feet of you" doesn't mean that you suddenly don't need to be able to make an attack. If your crossbow is not loaded, then you can't threaten, because you can't make an attack. Same with the bow.


graystone wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
It gives you a ranged AoO
It grants an AoO. It doesn't have to be ranged.

Yeah, I think RAI is a ranged AoO from this sentence:

Quote:
You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon.

But I agree that nowhere does it say you can't make a melee attack with the ranged weapon.

But then, if you can melee attack with a bow, why can't you threaten with it in the first place with regard to normal AoO's, since improvised weapons do threaten?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
My interpretation of Tarantula's point about the no arrow being readied not getting an attack was theoretical, since he is assuming that indeed an arrow is always nocked and ready to fire when you are wielding the bow. If I was wrong about that I apologize to him and he can clarify. I certainly am not, and never intended any of this to change how bows work regarding the rules, merely changing how I visualize them a little.

It doesn't take too much thinking to realize that constantly having an arrow nocked isn't a very good idea as it uses both your hands.

Therefore, next round if you want to use your hand to drink a potion or perform another action, you have to drop your arrow first.

It makes much more sense to free action draw an arrow as part of your attack rather than have it nocked constantly. I've looked and looked and can't find any situation in Pathfinder that provides any advantage to having an arrow nocked and ready when it comes to bow combat. No bonus to initiative, no free shot during a surprise round, nothing.

There seems to literally be no advantage in Pathfinder to having an arrow nocked before your turn, compared to drawing an arrow as part of an attack.

There are plenty of examples of arrow nocked on a bow held in one hand. You only need the 2nd hand for actually firing/reloading the bow.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
So, if a character with snap shot and a light crossbow had the crossbow wielded, he would still threaten, and provide flanking, even if he had no bolts loaded in that crossbow?

Yup, he would still threaten. He just wouldn't be able to load the crossbow as part of the AoO since he can't load as a free action.

That is, unless he had rapid reload, in which case he would be treated just like the bow.

Threaten -> load -> fire

Without rapid reload, snapshot isn't very good for light crossbow users.

How can he threaten if he can't actually make an attack?

From the feat.

Quote:


Quote:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
If you can't attack into the square, you can't threaten. The fact that snap shot says "you threaten squares within 5 feet of you" doesn't mean that you suddenly don't need to be able to make an attack. If your crossbow is not loaded, then you can't threaten, because you can't make an attack. Same with the bow.

You of all people should know that specific overrides general:

From your quote:

Quote:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack

and once again from the feat:

Quote:
While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you.

The rules for threaten say that you don't threaten with a bow (arrow nocked or not).

The feat says you do (arrow nocked or not).

Once again, please point out, in the feat, where it says you must have an arrow nocked. That's all I've been asking. The fact that you can't actually do that should tell you something about the correctness of your interpretation.


The feat does not change the requirements for threatened squares from being able to make an attack into the square. You cannot make an attack if you don't have an arrow. If you can't make an attack, you can't threaten. If you can't threaten, you can't make an aoo. If you can't make an aoo, you can't reload as part of the aoo.


I don't think a weapon that you can't attack with (an unloaded crossbow) can be considered to be wielded. I don't think that it matters very much, since if you can't attack with a weapon, that fact that you have an AoO probably wouldn't matter anyway.

I am quite certain that you can't change your grip on a bow or crossbow to wield it as an improvised weapon outside of your turn. If you could, then 'Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.' would not be true. Similarly, things like weapon focus: bow doesn't apply when using a bow as an improvised weapon.

Note the recent longspear faq


Tarantula wrote:


There are plenty of examples of arrow nocked on a bow held in one hand. You only need the 2nd hand for actually firing/reloading the bow.

Do you have any Pathfinder examples where having an arrow at the ready provides any mechanical difference compared to free action drawing?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:


There are plenty of examples of arrow nocked on a bow held in one hand. You only need the 2nd hand for actually firing/reloading the bow.
Do you have any Pathfinder examples where having an arrow at the ready provides any mechanical difference compared to free action drawing?

Sure. You have to spend a free action to draw an arrow and reload the bow prior to shooting. If someone readied an action for "when he draws an arrow I sunder his quiver" then you would not be able to shoot unless you had some other source of arrows. If the bow was already loaded, you would have gotten to shoot once, then draw an arrow which would have triggered the readied action.


The FAQ tell us that you can take more than one AoO with snap shot and combat reflexes. It says nothing about getting AoOs with out having a weapon ready to shoot.
the FAQ only concens it self the question asked.

And yes i dont think you get a negative level from the Holy bow ontil you try to use it.


Tarantula wrote:
The feat does not change the requirements for threatened squares from being able to make an attack into the square. You cannot make an attack if you don't have an arrow. If you can't make an attack, you can't threaten. If you can't threaten, you can't make an aoo. If you can't make an aoo, you can't reload as part of the aoo.

Except that it absolutely does. It defines the prerequisite for threatening as a 'wielded weapon'. If it said something different, you might be right. But that's what the feat says. It overrides the requirement for a melee attack with a wielded ranged weapon.

You are directly contradicting the words of the feat.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
The feat does not change the requirements for threatened squares from being able to make an attack into the square. You cannot make an attack if you don't have an arrow. If you can't make an attack, you can't threaten. If you can't threaten, you can't make an aoo. If you can't make an aoo, you can't reload as part of the aoo.

Except that it absolutely does. It defines the prerequisite for threatening as a 'wielded weapon'. If it said something different, you might be right. But that's what the feat says. It overrides the requirement for a melee attack with a wielded ranged weapon.

You are directly contradicting the words of the feat.

But you claim that a shurikin is wielded from the pocket, yes?


Cap. Darling wrote:

The FAQ tell us that you can take more than one AoO with snap shot and combat reflexes. It says nothing about getting AoOs with out having a weapon ready to shoot.

the FAQ only concens it self the question asked.

And yes i dont think you get a negative level from the Holy bow ontil you try to use it.

The feat itself gives you the AoO from a wielded bow.

Your contention that wielded == loaded is contradicted by several examples already posted, the most notable being the creature that can create an arrow while wielding a bow.

Your reading of the Holy Bow is also contradicted by the words. You maintain the negative level while the bow is still in hand.

Quote:
The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded.

wielded == in hand


Cap. Darling wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
The feat does not change the requirements for threatened squares from being able to make an attack into the square. You cannot make an attack if you don't have an arrow. If you can't make an attack, you can't threaten. If you can't threaten, you can't make an aoo. If you can't make an aoo, you can't reload as part of the aoo.

Except that it absolutely does. It defines the prerequisite for threatening as a 'wielded weapon'. If it said something different, you might be right. But that's what the feat says. It overrides the requirement for a melee attack with a wielded ranged weapon.

You are directly contradicting the words of the feat.

But you claim that a shurikin is wielded from the pocket, yes?

No, I claim just the opposite. It must be in hand.


Quote:
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you.
Quote:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.

The normal requirements for threatening is being able to make a melee attack into the square. Snap shot changes that to ranged attack.

With snap shot, if you have no ammunition you do not threaten with the ranged weapon. If you can't agree to that, then I will just disagree with you and stop discussing.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:


There are plenty of examples of arrow nocked on a bow held in one hand. You only need the 2nd hand for actually firing/reloading the bow.
Do you have any Pathfinder examples where having an arrow at the ready provides any mechanical difference compared to free action drawing?
Sure. You have to spend a free action to draw an arrow and reload the bow prior to shooting. If someone readied an action for "when he draws an arrow I sunder his quiver" then you would not be able to shoot unless you had some other source of arrows. If the bow was already loaded, you would have gotten to shoot once, then draw an arrow which would have triggered the readied action.

Relying on specific trigger actions for readied actions isn't quite what I have in mind for examples, since those are completely arbitrary.

I mean do the rules themselves provide an specific advantage to having an arrow nocked? Bonuses to initiative, ability to fire while surprised, anything other than your claims covering the snapshot feat.


Tarantula wrote:
Quote:
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you.
Quote:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
The normal requirements for threatening is being able to make a melee attack into the square. Snap shot changes that to ranged attack.
Um, no, this is what the snapshot changes that to:
Quote:
While wielding a ranged weapon
Quote:


With snap shot, if you have no ammunition you do not threaten with the ranged weapon. If you can't agree to that, then I will just disagree with you and stop discussing.

Guess we'll have to disagree. The feat is clear, and ammunition doesn't appear anywhere other than making the attack roll as part of the granted AoO.


I don't really like going dictionary on these sorts of issues, but wielded as a word in the English language doesn't mean just in hand. Wielded is inclusive of the concept of both holding and using. If I say he is wielding his hammer you are going to assume I'm saying he is swinging it and in fact hammering, not just carrying it down the street in his hand, because if I in fact meant the latter, I am using the word wield improperly.

In English, wielding a bow is firing arrows from it. Now, we are indeed using the word wield slightly differently, in that we are really meaning preparing to wield, as we are forced to divide smooth time into discrete actions by the nature of the simulation. However, to remove the idea of 'firing an arrow' from wielding a bow is completely nonsensical. Arrows are absolutely part of wielding a bow. One could of course say he is wielding his bow like a club, and that does remove the idea of an arrow, but now in game terms he is not wielding a bow, he is wielding an improvised weapon.

In the game system, the difference between wielding and holding is very minor. If I am holding a sword in my hand in most cases it can be assumed that I am indeed ready to wield it. It would generally be a free action to from an unweilded but held (were such a condition to occur, perhaps I say I hold out my sword gripping it by the blade to display I'm not hostile or something) and so typically we can entirely ignore the distinction. Their are a few cases were it does matter. I can hold a bow in one hand, while wielding a sword perhaps, but that held bow is not being wielded, because it requires two hands to do so. Equally, I can wield a long spear in two ways, as a long spear or as an improvised weapon, both require two hands, and while changing them is only a free action, it has to be declared and done on my turn. This demonstrates how wielding includes the concept of using, the use changes how it is wielded (and indeed if it is wielded).


_Ozy_ wrote:
Guess we'll have to disagree. The feat is clear, and ammunition doesn't appear anywhere other than making the attack roll as part of the granted AoO.

I suppose with Improved Snap Shot you would also allow the PC to threaten through walls or other obstacles to squares within 15', not just the squares they can actually attack into.


In Pathfinder:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-zuish in

Quote:

Holy Weapons (Su)

Any weapon wielded by a zuishin is treated as if it had the holy special ability. A zuishin creates arrows out of nothing as part of its attacks with any bow it wields.

If a bow must have an arrow nocked to be 'wielded' then the zuishin isn't wielding a bow, and thus can't create arrows.

I agree that wielding is different than simply carrying, but it is certainly not the case that a wielded bow must have an arrow nocked to be considered wielded, and that is really the only point of contention with regard to Snapshot.

I also agree that 'for the purpose of firing arrows' is implied in the term 'wielding' for bows. But again, that doesn't mean the bow is 'unwielded' right after the arrow is fired.

In short, holding a bow for the purpose of firing arrows is wielding it, wielding a bow grants AoOs from snapshot. No arrow need be nocked/ready at the time, but can be drawn as part of the granted AoO.

As long as you agree that wielding 'for the purpose of firing arrows' covers an un-nocked bow or just fired bow, then I think we are in agreement overall.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
The feat does not change the requirements for threatened squares from being able to make an attack into the square. You cannot make an attack if you don't have an arrow. If you can't make an attack, you can't threaten. If you can't threaten, you can't make an aoo. If you can't make an aoo, you can't reload as part of the aoo.

Except that it absolutely does. It defines the prerequisite for threatening as a 'wielded weapon'. If it said something different, you might be right. But that's what the feat says. It overrides the requirement for a melee attack with a wielded ranged weapon.

You are directly contradicting the words of the feat.

But you claim that a shurikin is wielded from the pocket, yes?
No, I claim just the opposite. It must be in hand.

So we agree on the OP thing now. Good.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Guess we'll have to disagree. The feat is clear, and ammunition doesn't appear anywhere other than making the attack roll as part of the granted AoO.
I suppose with Improved Snap Shot you would also allow the PC to threaten through walls or other obstacles to squares within 15', not just the squares they can actually attack into.

I thought we agreed to disagree. But since we're still asking questions, given the wording of Threaten, why not just write Snapshot as:

Benefit: You threaten squares within 5 feet of you in which you can make a ranged attack with a loaded ranged weapon.

You do realize that there is a difference between being physically blocked from a line of effect, and not yet having an arrow at the ready, but being allowed to draw as part of the granted AoO.

Don't you?


_Ozy_ wrote:

I thought we agreed to disagree. But since we're still asking questions, given the wording of Threaten, why not just write Snapshot as:

Benefit: You threaten squares within 5 feet of you in which you can make a ranged attack with a loaded ranged weapon.

You do realize that there is a difference between being physically blocked from a line of effect, and not yet having an arrow at the ready, but being allowed to draw as part of the granted AoO.

Don't you?

I personally would word it: Benefit: You threaten all squares with 5' into which you can make a ranged attack.

_Ozy_ wrote:

When a bow is WIELDED you threaten. Period! No arrow needed! Period!

Seriously, why are you making up this arrow thing?! It exists NOWHERE in the feat requirements, wielded != arrow, anywhere!

When a bow is WIELDED you threaten. Period! No line of effect needed! Period!

Seriously, why are you making up this line of effect thing?! It exists NOWHERE in the feat requirements, wielded != line of effect, anywhere!


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

I thought we agreed to disagree. But since we're still asking questions, given the wording of Threaten, why not just write Snapshot as:

Benefit: You threaten squares within 5 feet of you in which you can make a ranged attack with a loaded ranged weapon.

You do realize that there is a difference between being physically blocked from a line of effect, and not yet having an arrow at the ready, but being allowed to draw as part of the granted AoO.

Don't you?

I personally would word it: Benefit: You threaten all squares with 5' into which you can make a ranged attack.

? I have a bow, I can make a ranged attack into that square, what does loaded have to do with it?

? I have shurikens, I can make a ranged attack into that square, so now I don't even need the shurikens in hand?

If you remove 'wielded' as a requirement, you really open up the door.

Since 'loading' is a recognized action, and 'loaded' is a recognized condition, the developers could have easily added 'loaded' to the requirements for threatening in Snapshot.

They chose not to.

That should tell you something, especially in light of the FAQ.

Quote:


_Ozy_ wrote:

When a bow is WIELDED you threaten. Period! No arrow needed! Period!

Seriously, why are you making up this arrow thing?! It exists NOWHERE in the feat requirements, wielded != arrow, anywhere!

When a bow is WIELDED you threaten. Period! No line of effect needed! Period!

Seriously, why are you making up this line of effect thing?! It exists NOWHERE in the feat requirements, wielded != line of effect, anywhere!

Because line of effect is a general rule that hasn't been superseded unlike the requirements of threaten which specifically have been superseded.


_Ozy_ wrote:
? I have a bow, I can make a ranged attack into that square, what does loaded have to do with it?

Earlier, I asked if I had no arrows, would I still threaten, you said yes. You cannot make a ranged attack into a square without arrows, so my proposed wording for snap shot requiring that you are able to make an attack into the square now requires you have arrows. Fixing my issue with your interpretation of how snap shot works (providing threatening without arrows).

_Ozy_ wrote:
Because line of effect is a general rule that hasn't been superseded unlike the requirements of threaten which specifically have been superseded.

Having arrows to shoot with the bow is a general rule which hasn't been superseded.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
? I have a bow, I can make a ranged attack into that square, what does loaded have to do with it?
Earlier, I asked if I had no arrows, would I still threaten, you said yes. You cannot make a ranged attack into a square without arrows, so my proposed wording for snap shot requiring that you are able to make an attack into the square now requires you have arrows. Fixing my issue with your interpretation of how snap shot works (providing threatening without arrows).

That doesn't answer what 'loaded' has to do with it. It also changes (perhaps intentionally) the requirement that you have thrown weapons in hand, since you can make a ranged attack with a shuriken without it being in hand.

Quote:


_Ozy_ wrote:
Because line of effect is a general rule that hasn't been superseded unlike the requirements of threaten which specifically have been superseded.
Having arrows to shoot with the bow is a general rule which hasn't been superseded.

Correct, which is why it is critical that the feat lets you draw the arrow as part of the AoO in order to make your attack. Dude, you're going in circles and not actually backing up your arguments with the words from the feat/FAQ. They have words, words that mean things, words that mean things that contradict what you are saying.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Correct, which is why it is critical that the feat lets you draw the arrow as part of the AoO in order to make your attack. Dude, you're going in circles and not actually backing up your arguments with the words from the feat/FAQ. They have words, words that mean things, words that mean things that contradict what you are saying.

The FAQ addresses RELOADING the bow as part of the AoO. Reloading implies that you are loading the bow with a new arrow after you have shot. That is what the word means. You were keen on ignoring this earlier, so that you could interpret it to be loading the bow before the shot. The FAQ states reloading for the purpose of making multiple AOOs via combat reflexes is allowed as part of each AOO. The FAQ speaks from the assumption that the bow is initially loaded.


Tarantula wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Correct, which is why it is critical that the feat lets you draw the arrow as part of the AoO in order to make your attack. Dude, you're going in circles and not actually backing up your arguments with the words from the feat/FAQ. They have words, words that mean things, words that mean things that contradict what you are saying.
The FAQ addresses RELOADING the bow as part of the AoO. Reloading implies that you are loading the bow with a new arrow after you have shot. That is what the word means. You were keen on ignoring this earlier, so that you could interpret it to be loading the bow before the shot. The FAQ states reloading for the purpose of making multiple AOOs via combat reflexes is allowed as part of each AOO. The FAQ speaks from the assumption that the bow is initially loaded.

O.o

From before regarding our discussion on loading and reloading:

Quote:

Tarantula says:

That's fine. It doesn't matter that they are synonyms.

I wasn't 'keen on ignoring' I explicitly pointed out, with references to multiple pathfinder rules, that loading and reloading are interchangeable words in pathfinder.

You agreed.

You don't get to go back and claim a do over now that your new argument has failed.

51 to 100 of 172 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Shurikens as ranged weapons All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.