So the Gunslinger and firearms have been a contentious issue since their arrival in Ultimate Combat. Some view that they're too good given they get to target touch AC (which with certain type of monsters can be significantly lower then normal AC). Others compare it with longbow fighters (which thanks to Ultimate Combat are more powerful than ever) or pouncing raging barbarians and say they're fine. The latest debate is occuring over here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rp5x?The-Gunslinger-DRP-Hell-on-Golarion
This thread isn't intended to rehash the debate (the other thread is goof for that). Powergamers I know who've been optimising since 3rd edition have all look at the gunslinger and after a brief foray into the class have opted not to play them as they feel that gunslingers are just too good. So for this thread I'm taking it as a given that gunslingers are too good and looking at how to make the class work in a home campaign starting from level 1.
So to begin with this is for a campaign set in Avistan using the emerging guns rules. All gunslingers come from Alkenstar and had to have spent a significant amount of time there to learn how to use and make guns so they can justify having taken the gunsmithing feat.
Getting the supplies necessary to make his own weapons and ammunition won't be an issue, just time consuming (although it's expected there'll be plenty of downtime available for crafting).
Limiting factors:
* The only weapons available will be the early firearms.
* Weapon cords are a move action to use.
* All ammunition and weapons will come out of their wealth by level at the full price of their value (just as craft arms and armour doesn't allow a cleric to double their wealth by level, nor should a gunslinger). While consumables normally only take up 15% of the wealth of a character, this is a rule of thumb. Gunslingers are considered to spend significantly more on consumables and so they should have significantly less magical items as a result.
* Snap Shot and Improved Price Shot are not available for PCs to take.
When taking into these factors into account (along with the fact that they'll have to weigh up the benefit of creating backup weapons for when their primary misfires versus having more ammunition), is this enough to bring gunslingers in line with the other classes (comparisons to pouncing barbarians and ranged fighters notwithstanding)?
Should additional firearms not be available? (e.g. double-barreled weapons).
Should alchemical cartridges be unavailable?
Should certain archetypes not be allowed?
Should certain deeds not be allowed?
NOTE: My goal isn't to make gunslingers suck. They're a fun trope and can help make the game more exciting to players who've played dozens of fighters and wizards. My goal is to make gunslingers comparable to other classes so that the players can be challenged without massive changes to APs.
I wouldn't disallow alchemical cartridges, nor make their ammo or guns full price -- they're still going to pay 1.1 gp for powder + bullet or 6 gp for a basic alchemical cartridge by the RAW, and that still adds up over time. Low level gunslingers (1-4) aren't all that great and punishing them even more at low levels isn't necessary. Further, even if they get guns at half price by making them, that really isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, certainly not as big a deal as making magic items for half price.
One thing to consider is the gunslingers need (or at least would like to have) a couple of magical properties that many other characters ignore: Reliable to reduce misfire and Distance to make their first range increment better, particularly if they use a pistol. Those things alone can help keep them in line with other characters, who can often just jump right into properties that offer more damage.
That said, my experience with a gunslinger (currently Gun12/Wit1) is that they tend to be basically fine. Just don't let someone pull some chicanery and dual-wield pistols in *any* fashion, that's really gross (and if they start talking about a synthesist summoner and extra limbs, shut that down real fast). My gunslinger wields a single pistol as a primary weapon with a musket and dragon pistol for specific circumstances, and does fine.
Gunslingers tend to shine when facing an opponent with a high regular AC but poor touch AC -- that's their cool moment, hitting a creature that other people have a tough time connecting with. Creatures that already have bad AC's don't tend to suffer a lot more damage from a gunslinger as compared to another martial class. Enemies that can stay far away, out of the first range increment of their weapon, can really screw a gunslinger.
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Not that it's related specifically to gunslingers, but if a character has a crafting feat, the intention is that you use the crafting price, not the full price of the item for the characters wealth by level, which does allow for double wealth by level. I think it's actually a better balancing factor if the gunslinger has to pay full price for the black powder and guns, since for flavor, it's better to have him craft than try to buy weapons, but that's definitely an exception to the crafting rules.
I just think it's kinda cruel as a GM to take away the wealth by level benefit of crafting feats, as it's an intended benefit of choosing one of these feat. You're basically invalidating their feat choice by doing so, you'd be better off just banning crafting altogether.
As for actual gunslinger fixes, I'd suggest just banning the double barrel firearms, or modifying the ability to fire both barrels for a -4 penalty to hit. You could make firing both barrels a standard action on it's own so it can't be combined with a full attack, or have each barrel count as a separate attack in a full attack action. The double barreled firearms are the number one aggressors in the brokeness of gunslingers, since a -4 to attack is rarely a serious concern, and allows them to double their damage output per round.
EDIT - Let me rephrase that, dual wielding double barrel firearms are the number one agressor. Removing dual wielding, or double barrel firearms usually bring gunslingers back in line with other martial characters.
if a character has a crafting feat, the intention is that you use the crafting price, not the full price of the item for the characters wealth by level, which does allow for double wealth by level.
That doesn't seem to be the viewpoint of the majority on this forum. Some mention giving the players a bit of surplus to reward them, but very few GMs seem to advocate letting them double their wealth.
I just think it's kinda cruel as a GM to take away the wealth by level benefit of crafting feats, as it's an intended benefit of choosing one of these feat. You're basically invalidating their feat choice by doing so, you'd be better off just banning crafting altogether.
In my old group we typically banned crafting. However we also used the "Magic Shop" where anything and everything that was allowed at the table was ready to buy off the shelf. They might be more restricted at low levels but eventually everything became available.
Looking into alternatives I've discovered that despite what PFS and LG has always done, this isn't the default assumption for 3.5e/Pathfinder era. The core rulebook assumed magic items are significantly rarer with the most common item being regularly available is priced at 16,000gp and that's only at the biggest cities in all of Golarion (Absalom, Katapesh, that sort of thing).
So with that mindset the crafting feats have a giant advantage: players can get access to magical items that cost more than 16,000gp without having to rely on it being available in a finite list of 3d4 magic items.
dual wielding double barrel firearms are the number one agressor. Removing dual wielding, or double barrel firearms usually bring gunslingers back in line with other martial characters.
It seems dual wielding seems the cause of the vast majority of problems. What ways can someone dual wield? Does dual wielding need to be removed or can removing some of the tricks to relieve the penalties from wielding be sufficient?
The image of someone shooting two guns at someone is a fairly cool one. What about this houserule to preserve it: If you are able to make multiple attacks with a gun and you have a one-handed weapon in both hands you can alternate which gun you use to make each attack with.
Would that reintroduce problems caused by dual wielding? If dual wielding is removed, would this be a house rule or could gunslingers do it regardless?
The easiest fix is remove the "target touch AC", but also remove misfires. Let Deadeye allow ignoring the range penalty for each increment they pay for.
With this change, gunslinger is a closer range version of what longbows have done since core.
How many PCs do you have?
If there are 6 PCs and they go for a "DPR arms race", then yeah, the fighter is going to get upset that he's being "beaten" by the gunslinger.
If your group is either more balanced, or more mature, and they don't try to step on each other's toes, then no matter how much DPR one character puts out, it doesn't really matter, you just balance the encounters for it.
If there are 6 PCs and they go for a "DPR arms race", then yeah, the fighter is going to get upset that he's being "beaten" by the gunslinger.
It's not about PCs competing with each other on a DPR race, but about keeping the PCs to a predictable baseline that allows me to challenge them. If a single PC is so powerful that them missing an encounter changes it from a "cakewalk" to a "near TPK" then that character is causing problems. Also I've played with summoners and their ability to completely replace a table (when built right) makes my contribution to combat meaningless (this particular build may have been nerfed through errata).
If your group is either more balanced, or more mature, and they don't try to step on each other's toes, then no matter how much DPR one character puts out, it doesn't really matter, you just balance the encounters for it.
If this were 4th ed I'd nod and agree with you on the "ability to balance encounters." However Pathfinder isn't anywhere near as easy to balance as 4th ed and I'm afraid my ability in this area is limited. I've played Pathfinder since 2009 and GM'd it since 2010 and even after all that time I'm limited in being able to rebalance combats to deal with PCs whose power is significantly higher than the assumed levels of the Adventure Paths. I've had some luck (giving the party a +1 APL helped for a while) but ultimately my last campaign ended with me not being able to challenge them meaningfully. I've taken a year off GMing Pathfinder and wouldn't mind giving it another crack sometime next year and so am looking for ways to be able to keep the game challenging and fun.
It might seem like I'm looking to go on a ban spree. However my old Pathfinder group (who'd been playing D&D since 3rd edition) unilaterally banned gunslingers. I'm actually looking to be able to run a Pathfinder campaign with LESS things banned by being a bit more judicious in what I ban.
The bolt ace is a great way to have a gunslinger without firearms if it's the guns that are a problem.
Did they fix Bolt Ace already? I was a bit let down by the half-finished design of that archetype.
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Not officially yet, but it's easy enough to fix with house-rules. Swap the battered firearm and gun proficiency with proficiency in all exotic crossbows and a free masterwork crossbow of your choice.
Allow any grit feat to work with crossbows instead of firearms.
Done.
Sorry if this is a derail but just how powerful is a dual-wielding Gunslinger?
Between ammo costs, misfire and needing to get into charging range to pull it off going nova with multiple pistols always seemed like a bad idea to me. Being within 30 ft is kind of a biggie for me. I can't trust ranged tactics that bring me that close to the action, I've seen it go badly too often.
I ask because I rarely see a Gunslinger in play and when I do it's always a rifle build. The one dual pistol build I've seen didn't fare too well
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All is mostly ok but please dont increase prices, craft prices are there because guns and specially amunition is stupidly expensive. If you really want to tone donwn gunslingers just ban double barreled weapons, this is where most problems come since most people dont know how to properly use them. What you are doing with this changes is that nobody is going to want play a gunslinger.
Should additional firearms not be available? (e.g. double-barreled weapons).
Just double barreled weapons if you want to gimp a little the class.
Should alchemical cartridges be unavailable?
No. You would make the gunslinger unplayable. A commoner with a greataxe is gonna do more damage if you disallow them.
Should certain archetypes not be allowed?
If you want you can ban Pistolero, so the player will never ignore misfires, i dont recommend banning musket master because its the only way for two handed gunslingers to work properly
Should certain deeds not be allowed?
Hell no, most of the deeds suck anyway, Banning the couple of useful ones would certaitly bting your player to only full attack all the game. Makes the class a little bit more boring and with less versatility.
I'll add to the chorus recommending banning double barrel shots. Dual wielding pistols isn't much of a problem because it needs a lot of feat investment and without the doubled damage from using double barrelled shooting, a decent archer will be just as effective.
As for crafting feats and wealth by level: use the guideline that each crafting feat adds 25% rather than allowing the player to double their wealth. I forget where the guideline is from, but it's real.
I Think without double barelled firearms you are fine. You May also disallow the different tricks to TWF and reloading pistols. Pehaps even drop musket Master AT as it seem a bit of on the emerging guns flavor that someone shoots once every 2 seconds with a front loaded flintlock.
what the gunslinger bro ha to the table is mainly damage and i Think it is ok.
But i dot allow free reloading of double barelled guns.