Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not rogue inclined, but even I can see a lot of dismay in those who are. I suggest that rather than complain about what rogues can't do that they could in tabletop, people outline a new Rogue for PFO. Identify specific things Rogues could do in PFO that would make them sufficiently different from the other roles and at the same make them useful. It may, if nothing else, provide an idea pool for the GW staff to draw from.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(Again, not up on my roguish ways, so some of these may be ridiculous and others may already exist)
New ways of creating opportunity? (maybe any rogue attack creates opportunity?)
Ways of exploiting opportunity? (Built in (feat based) damage buff on striking an opponent that displays opportunity)
Preferential auto-targetting enemies that display opportunity?
Climbing/Better jumping? Allowing them to get up slopes that other roles can't.
I believe there are a number of changes/fixes in line for the rogue role (after sneaking around the Alpha forums for a bit). I think most everyone is perfectly happy with the devs putting their resources into stability and other issues until EE. Once they get back to non world breaking issues, rogues may get a little love.
I think the main issue is not that the role doesn't perform to people's TT standards, but that the in-game role is just severely broken. This definitely isn't due to a lack of suggestions or crowdforging. It seems more like bigger things came up and good enough was good enough. I think GW could do a little more to let people know it's on the list, but again, bigger things on their plate.
I'm not in the 'rogue fix is mvp' camp. If most of the buttons work and we're stable, I'm ready. The bummer of it comes from rogue, so far, failing the EE planning test. Most of us here now are planning what to do with our characters once xp goes live. Most people have a basic idea of how they want to progress their characters, some through T2, in a way that matches their play style. They've figured out which feats they like, what weapons and gear they will be striving for, how to attack their craft or refining, but, with fixes and changes in line, rogues are still waiting at the gate.
Still playing, still having fun, just throwing out some rogue constructive criticism.
(And yes, after sitting and listening to all of that...your coin purse is missing)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not rogue inclined, but I am curious as to what they can do.
For example, Sneak Attack. I took my spear armed freeholder down to the skirmisher and rogue trainer, and learned and slotted Opportunist. My spear damage (default exploit) against Lv1 mobs jumped from 182 to 207. I think that means that sneak attack applies +25 damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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More synergy between weapons feats would be a start:
A basic short sword feat that can cause flat footed, rather than relying on feint.
A short bow exploit that can take advantage of distressed applied by the distant shot.
Melee manoeuvres that don't require your bow to be equipped and vice versa.
Shooting from stealth to have a chance of applying flat footed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Combat is only one parameter, in order to have any claim to right of existance (IMO) it must be something more than a fighter. Otherwise just dump the role, move the feats to fighter school and wait until there is time to actually create something that is more than a fighter light.
Nere is no need of two figther versions at this stage, so either give it unique flavour or ditch it until later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Change nomenclature from Rogue to Brigand.
The definition of what a Brigand is, is a perfect match to the role possibilities within the game and the setting.
To be honest I hope the role does not become a support role, a role that has a "bag if tricks", or the role of a "dungeoneer".
A moderately armed, armored, mobile highwayman, raider, and pillager. Masters of operating in small gang skirmishes. Using ambush and hit and run tactics.
The trade off is, they can not stand toe-to-toe vs. heavy infantry in formations. Nor are they as effective, and are more vulnerable in open field combat, where they lose their advantages of stealth / concealment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd, good suggestion, alas I would think Skirmisher would be abetter name. Otherwise some sensitive souls would feel it is typecasted.
I have little expectation that GW would change the name from Rogue. They would cite that it breaks from the PF / D&D 3.5+ tradition of Rogues being the Archtype.
I look back on the days when the class was called Thief, and their primary abilities were back stabbing, hide in shadows, pick pocketing, lock picking and disarming traps. They were in fact Thieves!
The River Kingdoms provides the possibility to have a darker vision for Rogues, and even for the other classes as well. It is really quite unfortunate that so many of the settlements have gone NG, granted that is the result of this being a sandbox, because that will lend itself going a bit too vanilla (non agressive / cooperative). This I expect is a result of so many coming from PF TT, and that system not allowing for Evil or non heroic play (so I am told).
I have the Skull & Shackles Adventure Card Set, so I intend to see for myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have the Skull & Shackles Adventure Card Set, so I intend to see for myself.
My wife and I have been playing that and enjoying it. Let me know how you do on the Free Captains' Regatta. That's the only scenario so far that my wife and I didn't win the first time. We were probably half-a-dozen Blessings short, and that was with me playing Alahazra and revealing practically every card before we encountered it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf,
A few questions:
1- Given the "multi-role" nature of PFO, as any character can quickly change his "role" with a change of gear (weapons, armor, implements..); how does a bandit/rogue factor this in when determine how to choose his/her targets?
If my dwarven fighter-miner has multiple levels in both "Fighter" and "Freeholder" and you see him in medium armor hitting a rock node (with no weapons visible), how do you as a bandit/rogue know how "tough" a fight I might be? How can you determine possible threat level?
(As a general question that also applies to all hybrid "roles"; I didn't find any threads talking about this lately).
2- I have seen the terms "PVE Fighter" and "PVP Fighter"; what is the difference?
3- What is the latest on Sneak Attack being fully implanted and working properly?
4- How do I as a "Fighter", help make my "Rogue" companions be more deadly in combat?
5- I have seen many people play as "Rogue/Fighters", is this a temporary Alpha only thing (as Rogues are not functioning well), or is this a good hybrid/synergy role?
Thanks in advance!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The River Kingdoms provides the possibility to have a darker vision for Rogues, and even for the other classes as well. It is really quite unfortunate that so many of the settlements have gone NG, granted that is the result of this being a sandbox, because that will lend itself going a bit too vanilla (non agressive / cooperative). This I expect is a result of so many coming from PF TT, and that system not allowing for Evil or non heroic play (so I am told).
Tabletop Pathfinder, as a game system, certainly allows for evil or non-heroic play. However, many of the people reading the Paizo forums are involved in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Pathfinder Society Organized Play is a worldwide fantasy roleplaying campaign that puts YOU in the role of an agent of the Pathfinder Society, a legendary league of explorers, archaeologists, and adventurers dedicated to discovering and chronicling the greatest mysteries and wonders of an ancient world beset by magic and evil.
It's tough to convince people to come to a game shop, sit down with a mixture of friends and strangers, and play for a few hours if they have to worry about the other players as much as the NPCs. To minimize strife within parties, Paizo decided to outlaw evil characters when they set up the campaign.
Paizo also declared that GMs should run Pathfinder Society games strictly according to the Rules as Written. Since the rules were written by human beings, they're stuffed full of confusing passages, omissions, and outright contradictions. That brings people to the Paizo message boards to argue endlessly in the Rules section. Being active on another section of the message boards is a great way to find out about PFO, so a lot of our long-term participants are Pathfinder Society players and GMs. Coming from that background, they're used to cooperative play. Among other factors, this leads to Neutral Good settlements and Non-Aggression Pacts.
Another factor is the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. These are sets of linked adventures that cover most of a party's career, from 1st level until levels in the teens. Many of the Adventure Paths written by Paizo work best with good-aligned parties. Some of the Paizo Adventure Paths can be run with neutral or evil parties, and there's at least one fairly successful third-party Adventure Path written specifically for evil characters, but the overall tendency runs toward good.
In theory, tabletop Pathfinder works just fine with evil or non-heroic parties. In practice, a lot of Pathfinder players and GMs wind up with primarily good parties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf,
2- I have seen the terms "PVE Fighter" and "PVP Fighter"; what is the difference?
I'm not Bluddwolf, but I'll take a stab at this one anyway.
Computer-controlled enemies are generally pretty predictable. If you're fighting goblins, you know that the shamans will hit you with their cold AoE until they run out of stamina. If you're fighting ogres, you can expect them to stop a few paces away and yell at you before they close to melee range.
This means that you can plan ahead to maximize your chances against those types of NPCs. For the goblin shamans, you can prepare orisons or potions that increase your resistance to cold damage. For the ogres, you can count on getting an extra bow shot in before you have to switch to your melee weapon. For now, knowing that effects like knockback don't do anything to NPCs, you can avoid attacks that cause them. A fighter whose feats, armor, weapons, utilities and magic items have been chosen for maximum effectiveness against one or more types of NPC is called a PVE fighter.
Players are different. Even if you know you're going to be fighting a PC with wizard levels, you can't be certain which cantrips they'll cast against you. You can't count on a PC with a bow to always stop a certain distance away from you and use a particular attack. Against PCs, things like knockback work, so you're more likely to slot attacks that cause them. A fighter whose feats, armor, weapons, utilities and magic items have been chosen for dealing with PCs is called a PVP fighter.
Fighting NPCs with items and feats chosen for PVP is inefficient. Fighting PCs with items and feats chosen for PVE tends to get you killed in a hurry, when a player uses an unexpected ability that you can't counter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3- What is the latest on Sneak Attack being fully implanted and working properly?
Sneak Attack appears to work for the Opportunist rogue feature feat. With Opportunist slotted, my character does about +24-25 more damage to targets showing opportunity or flat-footed, compared to when Opportunist is not slotted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's tough to convince people to come to a game shop, sit down with a mixture of friends and strangers, and play for a few hours if they have to worry about the other players as much as the NPCs. To minimize strife within parties, Paizo decided to outlaw evil characters when they set up the campaign.
Paizo also declared that GMs should run Pathfinder Society games strictly according to the Rules as Written. Since the rules were written by human beings, they're stuffed full of confusing passages, omissions, and outright contradictions. That brings people to the Paizo message boards to argue endlessly in the Rules section. Being active on another section of the message boards is a great way to find out about PFO, so a lot of our long-term participants are Pathfinder Society players and GMs. Coming from that background, they're used to cooperative play. Among other factors, this leads to Neutral Good settlements and Non-Aggression Pacts.
Another factor is the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. These are sets of linked adventures that cover most of a party's career, from 1st level until levels in the teens. Many of the Adventure Paths written by Paizo work best with good-aligned parties. Some of the Paizo Adventure Paths can be run with neutral or evil parties, and there's at least one fairly successful third-party Adventure Path written specifically for evil characters, but the overall tendency runs toward good.
In theory, tabletop Pathfinder works just fine with evil or non-heroic parties. In practice, a lot of Pathfinder players and GMs wind up with primarily good parties.
In all of my experience, the party members never had to worry about the others, as long as the mission objective had not yet been met and or the group still had a purpose to maintain the cooperative relationship.
As far as being dictated in what rules should be followed, I raise my "middle finger" to that. Unless their rules are perfect and completely capable of accounting for every possible way of playing the game, the truism of "The Customer is Always Right" applies.
Not just in theory can non good or even evil parties work within the system, but they enhance the party dynamic and make the DM "think" more about the "telling of the story" (Running the Adventure / Quest).
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as being dictated in what rules should be followed, I raise my "middle finger" to that. Unless their rules are perfect and completely capable of accounting for every possible way of playing the game, the truism of "The Customer is Always Right" applies.
Keep in mind, this only applies to Pathfinder Society Organized Play games. The purpose is to make sure that if you go to a convention out of town, and sit down at a Pathfinder Society game with an unfamiliar GM, your character won't be crippled by some house rule that your local Pathfinder Society GM doesn't use.
If you're playing at home, and your game isn't affiliated with the Organized Play system, then Paizo couldn't dictate what rules you use, even if they wanted to. What's more, they don't want to. The Core Rulebook starts with Rule Zero: The GM is the final arbiter on all rules.
House rules are just fine at your house. The only time you're supposed to follow the rules as written is when you're participating in the Organized Play campaign.
Edit: The rules are far from perfect. The Rules section of this message board contains many long-running arguments that make the disagreements in this section look quite tame.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Try running Rise of the Runelords book 1 with a cleric of Lamastu and a CG battlerager.
Do the PCs help Ameiko or Nualia?
There could be a Chaotic Neutral approach that both the Cleric and the Battle Rager can live with.
A good DM will be able to tweak the current path in response to unanticipated player requests or choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf,
A few questions:
1- Given the "multi-role" nature of PFO, as any character can quickly change his "role" with a change of gear (weapons, armor, implements..); how does a bandit/rogue factor this in when determine how to choose his/her targets?
If my dwarven fighter-miner has multiple levels in both "Fighter" and "Freeholder" and you see him in medium armor hitting a rock node (with no weapons visible), how do you as a bandit/rogue know how "tough" a fight I might be? How can you determine possible threat level?
(As a general question that also applies to all hybrid "roles"; I didn't find any threads talking about this lately).
Since it is unknown what a character is truly capable of, gear alone means nothing (although maybe tier does), a bandit group will rely on numerical advantage and let the chips fall where they may.
As Ryan stated in a recent post, no one will be an effective bandit going it solo.
2- I have seen the terms "PVE Fighter" and "PVP Fighter"; what is the difference?
In most MMOs there are different skill sets that are tailored towards PVP, as opposed to PVE. It appears in PFO, PVP builds will be hybrid multi role builds. This is not to say that a pure role character can not be good at PVP, it is just that he/she will not be as versatile and in my opinion, less effective, if isolated.
3- How do I as a "Fighter", help make my "Rogue" companions be more deadly in combat?
PVE: Fighter pulls the aggro and withdraws, meanwhile the Rogues hit the ranged targets with their own ranged attacks. Cleric, heals the Fighter as needed. When the mob group breaks its chain and begins to retreat, that is when the Wizard nukes them with an AOE. You may chose to have the Wizard open up with a Nuke, and then run like Hell, while the others engage the mobs as they chase after the wizard.
PVP: I will not discuss PVP tactics or builds
5- I have seen many people play as "Rogue/Fighters", is this a temporary Alpha only thing (as Rogues are not functioning well), or is this a good hybrid/synergy role?
Thanks in advance!
Until there is a clear dedication bonus, I don't see any benefit to being a pure role, but especially not the Rogue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They just need a dps boost. Their survivability should be in killing their target quickly. Fighters shouldn't get both the best defense and highest damage in melee.
I'd say that the 'sneak attacks' should give 50-70 base damage if using light weapons. Out of all the classes they should be more combo driven, and able to set themselves up for big attacks, not having to rely as much on debuffs from party members.
TT/Single-player-game rogues are a different thing than MMO/pvp rogues. They are spike damage, quick movement and stealth classes, not pickpocketing, lockpicking, smooth-talking thieves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PVP: I will not discuss PVP tactics or builds
That's a shame (for us, not on you); I'd actually be quite interested in reading that.
I think I understand why; I felt a slight urge not to share my own thoughts about PvP builds and tactics, but realized it was more important to me to share information than it was to try to maintain a tactical advantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As of now, the Rogue does not get the benefits of most of their attacks because they changed the Flat Footed condition to Distressed, but the Rogue attack feats don't exploit that change.
I don't know of any attacks from Shortbow or Light Weapons that take advantage of Distress.
Secondly, none of the Armor features of the Rogue role are build to Medium Armor. Currently all of the Rogue Armor Feats only support Light Armor, and have key words mostly for Light, Stealth, etc.. The problem is, you can't stealth in melee combat.
I see there being a need for each role to have one armor variant that can step up one or down one.
Rogue = 4 Armor Feats (3 Light, 1 Medium)
Wizard = 4 Armor Feats (3 Cloth, 1 Light)
Cleric = 4 Armor Feats (3 Medium, 1 Heavy)
Fighter = 4 Armor Feats (3 heavy, 1 Medium)
There could even be a 1-2-1 distribution for all except Fighter and Wizard who could have a 0-1-1-2 and 2-1-1-0 respectively.
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Goblin Squad Member
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....
I see there being a need for each role to have one armor variant that can step up one or down one.Rogue = 4 Armor Feats (3 Light, 1 Medium)
Wizard = 4 Armor Feats (3 Cloth, 1 Light)
Cleric = 4 Armor Feats (3 Medium, 1 Heavy)
Fighter = 4 Armor Feats (3 heavy, 1 Medium)There could even be a 1-2-1 distribution for all except Fighter and Wizard who could have a 0-1-1-2 and 2-1-1-0 respectively.
I agree with mose of the idea here, though I'd make it;
Rogue = 4 Armor Feats (1 Cloth, 2 Light, 1 Medium) //Cloth is for infiltration types
Wizard = 4 Armor Feats (3 Cloth, 1 Light)
Cleric = 4 Armor Feats (1 Light, 2 Medium, 1 Heavy)
Fighter = 4 Armor Feats (1 Light, 1 Medium, 2 Heavy)
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Goblin Squad Member
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PVP: I will not discuss PVP tactics or buildsThat's a shame (for us, not on you); I'd actually be quite interested in reading that.
I think I understand why; I felt a slight urge not to share my own thoughts about PvP builds and tactics, but realized it was more important to me to share information than it was to try to maintain a tactical advantage.
That is very sly of you, to appeal to my good nature and desire to teach.
Very well...
One tactic that I can see as useful is to create the EvE equivalent of an Interceptor / Tackler. This requires being multi classed with Cleric, because they have the agility / movement speed increasing feats. Also, the tackler will need to have either Wizard Feats (Wands) that have the 2 second stun and or 2 second knock down. They can also have the Utility "Trip" from the Rogue's role.
This is all for the purpose of tackling a fleeing opponent, who is most likely also using the Cleric features to flee faster and heal as he runs.
If the fast movement remains exclusive to Clerics, the River Kingdoms will be a very religious place indeed!
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's currently no reason why you can't slot Daredevil and Unbreakable. Right now we need to play test how strong the dedication bonus should be, and a way to do that is to show how good a rogue is at doing rogue stuff with fighter armor feats.
I agree, which is why I have said that multi role builds are the way to go for most things, but especially for PVP and solo PVE.
That IMO does not reflect the intentions of GW, when they set out to create these roles and their features.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is, you can't stealth in melee combat.
Banesama mentioned something last night that might be good to know.
Entering Stealth immediately after Evading, it appears he was able to force the mobs to drop him as a target. We know that, even if you can see someone while they're in Stealth, you can't target them unless they're within your Perception range. It makes sense that if you're outside of that range and enter Stealth, they'll lose you as a target and be unable to retarget you. It's not clear exactly what the mobs did after that - it was fairly hectic - but I think they immediately looked for other targets.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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PVP: I will not discuss PVP tactics or buildsThat's a shame (for us, not on you); I'd actually be quite interested in reading that.
I think I understand why; I felt a slight urge not to share my own thoughts about PvP builds and tactics, but realized it was more important to me to share information than it was to try to maintain a tactical advantage.
That is very sly of you, to appeal to my good nature and desire to teach.
Very well...
One tactic that I can see as useful is to create the EvE equivalent of an Interceptor / Tackler. This requires being multi classed with Cleric, because they have the agility / movement speed increasing feats. Also, the tackler will need to have either Wizard Feats (Wands) that have the 2 second stun and or 2 second knock down. They can also have the Utility "Trip" from the Rogue's role.
This is all for the purpose of tackling a fleeing opponent, who is most likely also using the Cleric features to flee faster and heal as he runs.
If the fast movement remains exclusive to Clerics, the River Kingdoms will be a very religious place indeed!
You forgot master of opportunity feats, which add a slow or chance of knockdown to all attacks, and charge attacks. Most importantly, you forgot the consumables, which are sufficient to catch anyone that isn't built to rabbit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Entering Stealth immediately after Evading, it appears he was able to force the mobs to drop him as a target. We know that, even if you can see someone while they're in Stealth, you can't target them unless they're within your Perception range. It makes sense that if you're outside of that range and enter Stealth, they'll lose you as a target and be unable to retarget you. It's not clear exactly what the mobs did after that - it was fairly hectic - but I think they immediately looked for other targets.
I have unsuccessfully tried this a couple of times, but I guess it is a bit of luck and a healthy amount of Stealth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have unsuccessfully tried this a couple of times, but I guess it is a bit of luck and a healthy amount of Stealth.Entering Stealth immediately after Evading, it appears he was able to force the mobs to drop him as a target. We know that, even if you can see someone while they're in Stealth, you can't target them unless they're within your Perception range. It makes sense that if you're outside of that range and enter Stealth, they'll lose you as a target and be unable to retarget you. It's not clear exactly what the mobs did after that - it was fairly hectic - but I think they immediately looked for other targets.
I think Banesama hit the Evade before the mobs were actually on him, if that helps. It was a pretty spectacular pull, if I remember correctly :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Banesama hit the Evade before the mobs were actually on him, if that helps. It was a pretty spectacular pull, if I remember correctly :)I have unsuccessfully tried this a couple of times, but I guess it is a bit of luck and a healthy amount of Stealth.Entering Stealth immediately after Evading, it appears he was able to force the mobs to drop him as a target. We know that, even if you can see someone while they're in Stealth, you can't target them unless they're within your Perception range. It makes sense that if you're outside of that range and enter Stealth, they'll lose you as a target and be unable to retarget you. It's not clear exactly what the mobs did after that - it was fairly hectic - but I think they immediately looked for other targets.
Nihimon is correct. I saw the mobs heading for me and hit Evasion a few steps before they reached melee range. Then hit Stealth instantly after that. They started to wonder around for about a second before they locked on to someone else.
For reference, my Stealth was 96. It is also a little bit of trial and error at the moment figuring out the Perception range of each enemy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TT/Single-player-game rogues are a different thing than MMO/pvp rogues. They are spike damage, quick movement and stealth classes, not pickpocketing, lockpicking, smooth-talking thieves.
I don't think that PFO rogues need to be the same as every other MMO's rogues. They should be closer to PF than to WoW.
If someone want to play a spike damage (edit: more lethal than an average fighter), quick movement and stealth character, then they can mix and match rogue and fighter capabilities to make a spike damage, quick movement and stealth character. It doesn't have to be a default rogue.
Secondly, none of the Armor features of the Rogue role are build to Medium Armor. Currently all of the Rogue Armor Feats only support Light Armor, and have key words mostly for Light, Stealth, etc.. The problem is, you can't stealth in melee combat.
I see there being a need for each role to have one armor variant that can step up one or down one.
Again, PF rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. If someone wants to play a rogue character who wears medium armor, they can mix and match rogue and fighter capabilities to make a medium armored character using rogue weapons and feats.
It's a classless system. There's already space to do these things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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[
Nihimon is correct. I saw the mobs heading for me and hit Evasion a few steps before they reached melee range. Then hit Stealth instantly after that. They started to wonder around for about a second before they locked on to someone else.
For reference, my Stealth was 96. It is also a little bit of trial and error at the moment figuring out the Perception range of each enemy.
Just knowing it is possible helps. I must check my stealth tho, dont remember when I gave up the rogue pursuit as I felt it didnt add anything...