Obsidian Firearms


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

So I realized this was possible, and that it cuts the price for firearms in half, which is very nice. But, it does make the weapon fragile. I was curious as to what would happen if I rolled a one though. Firearms misfire on a 1(usually), but fragile weapons also gain the broken condition on a 1. So what would end up happening? Would it gain the broken condition twice(which is impossible/would destroy the weapon?)? Is this illegal in PFS?(Hero Lab said nothing of it). Didn't see anything about obsidian firearms anywhere else, so I would appreciate some help.

Thanks
Arlok


Just off the top of my head, without having a rulebook to check, my ruling at the table would be that the "mis-fire" rate would be increased, Instead of a 1, it'd be on a 1 or 2, maybe a 1-3? As far as PFS ruling, no idea, not my baliwack.


I'd do the opposite, I'd increase the fragile range. Probably to 3 or more. Consider that such weapons would have to endure an internal explosion every time they're fired.

Sovereign Court

I realize that(according to weapon rules) if a weapon is masterwork/magic, it ignores the flaws of being fragile.

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
Fragile: Fragile weapons cannot take the beating that sturdier weapons can. A fragile weapon gains the broken condition if the wielder rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with the weapon. If a fragile weapon is already broken, the roll of a natural 1 destroys it instead. Masterwork and magical fragile weapons lack these flaws unless otherwise noted in the item description.


Actually, RAW you can't make a firearm out of Obsidian. Firearms do P and B damage, while Obsidian can be used to make weapons that deal P or S damage.

The Exchange

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While I find the idea of an obsidian gun super cool, it's a ridiculously fragile material. You'd literally be making a glass cannon.

On the other hand, you'd literally be making a glass cannon (which is awesome).

I honestly see them exploding on a critical. I don't normally go with "bad things happen when you roll 1" because it can turn into an absurd rabbit hole of possible effects, but since the rules already exist for guns breaking, I'm more okay with it. Maybe on a 1 they get the broken condition, and you could "confirm the crit" in some way to have it blow up and damage the user.

I just can't see an obsidian gun working out.


Do you mean in reality? Because yeah, it won't work out well. I can't think of a worse material to make a firearm out of (okay, maybe playdoh or bubble gum).

The Exchange

In reality, no, in Pathfinder, maybe? If you're going for rule of cool, then I guess it's okay because then who really cares about realism. But if you're playing or running a game that is in any way simulationist, you need at least some realism, and I think an obsidian gun stretches that too far.

If you're just trying to use an alternative material because it's cheaper, I think it actually goes against the spirit of the rules, but if you can come up with a downside that makes up for effectively "cheating" one of the balancing factors for guns, and still have those guns be at all usable, then hey, it's your game. They included obsidian blades in Dark Sun World because metal was extremely rare, but they were pretty fragile, and you paid for superior cutting ability with increased chance of breakage. But that was a matter of [fictional] necessity, so using otherwise inferior materials made sense.

Personally I would just say no in my home game, and limit obsidian for like, ritual daggers and the like, but that's my home game. But if you can make it work to the satisfaction of the GM and the group? I think I gun with a shiny, cold to the touch barrel made of black glass would be super cool.

Sovereign Court

owenstreetpress wrote:

In reality, no, in Pathfinder, maybe? If you're going for rule of cool, then I guess it's okay because then who really

Personally I would just say no in my home game, and limit obsidian for like, ritual daggers and the like, but that's my home game. But if you can make it work to the satisfaction of the GM and the group? I think I gun with a shiny, cold to the touch barrel made of black glass would be super cool.

Yeah, the reason being it allows me to buy a masterwork pepperbox for 1800 instead of 3300, and i have it at level 2. Keep in mind that since this is PFS, i cant really convince a GM/GM cant say no if its actually a possibility. According to Hero Lab, it is possible and legal. And there should be the fragile 'component' on it, but its masterwork, and according to the rules, that removes the flaws(which would be it gains broken on 1).

So i guess the logic behind it is its masterfully made in such a way to prevent it from breaking.(though firearms would break on a 1-~~ anyway

The Exchange

Sounds like you got it worked out then.

I'd be interested to see how other players and GMs react to such an admittedly absurd weapon. More as a cultural thing: how much does "rule of cool" let you get away with when something is legal but kind of silly?


Huh. now I want a bone sniper rifle (muskett)


Astral Wanderer wrote:
I'd do the opposite, I'd increase the fragile range. Probably to 3 or more. Consider that such weapons would have to endure an internal explosion every time they're fired.

Curse me for not having a book handy. Based on how you clarify, I'd increase the fragile and mis-fire range.


A masterwork obsidian weapon is not enough to ignore the fragile quality.
It has to be magic... as per the description of obsidian itself.

Other fragile weapons masterwork is enough, but not for obsidian.

Also, a gun is neither a slashing nor a piercing weapon, and as such, is not eligible to be made of obsidian. (The bullets are, the gun is not)


There is a reason all firearms were made with iron/steel. Other material cannot handle the sudden, volatile expansion caused by the gases created by gunpowder/black powder. Have you used obsidian at all? It is much more fragile than many think. It would be about a 50% chance (at best!) to not only misfire, but shatter and possibly explode. You would need to use magic to enhance it just to decrease that chance. That would considerably increase the cost you thought you would save.
To me, it would be complete cheese for any GM to allow this.

Sovereign Court

obsidian: no

the fundamental mechanics behind guns and cannons are tied to barrel oscillation and rotation; crystals and minerals have no elasticity and therefore would not provide that mass-spring force to act upon the bullet's propulsion, let alone guide its trajectory


I think this would be less of a firearm and more of a shrapnel grenade with a rather poor trigger mechanics (there are ways to fire it that aren't 'in your own hands', but they are tricky to set up; you need to contact Macaulay Culkin for more instructions)


I think some folks are getting off point here. This isn't about the logistics of whether or not an obsidian weapon is practical in the sense of logic or realism, but whether it is possible - and, if so, what would then happen - in the scope of mechanics.

If we want to go by logic, an adamantine firearm would never, ever misfire, as the concept of misfiring is based around the barrel of the gun getting so hot that it expands. This happens in real life with modern and pre-modern firearms. Given that adamantine is extremely hard and evidently extraordinarily dense, the amount of heat given off by the gunpowder exploding wouldn't be enough to even scratch the adamantine, much less cause it to expand (if it could, then normal firearms would probably melt every time you shot them).

But mechanics don't support this - we can assume that a misfire would then be caused by something else, just as we could assume that a firearm made of obsidian could technically work because it would be manufactured differently.

That having been said, you can't make a firearm out of obsidian just as you can't make a bow, crossbow, or slingshot out of obsidian. These weapons don't work on their own - they require ammunition to work, and otherwise work as improvised weapon if they are swung in melee. As a result, they do not have the prerequisite of being a slashing or piercing weapon (or even one-handed, in some cases).

As far as what happens to a fragile weapon that misfires, in terms of rules, these don't happen at the same time. These things happen one after another. Given that the weapon would break due to fragile, and then break again due to it misfiring, the weapon would be destroyed on a misfire of 1.

Shadow Lodge

Logic wise yeah it practiaclly impossible, yet this is pathfinder so yeah it works, by raw since broken doesnt stack basically you have overrided a penalty.

Since firearms are hugely overpriced i would probably allowed, now lets find some smith who can make obsidian firearms...


No, it doesn't work because a gun doesn't actually do damage, the ammo for it does damage. So obsidian bullets, not obsidian firearms.

As for whether a fragile firearm explodes, that depends on the order of operations. If it goes fragile->misfire (and it's an early firearm) then it explodes (as firearms have a clause that if a broken firearm misfires it explodes). If it goes misfire->fragile then it's only destroyed but doesn't explode (because a fragile weapon has a similar clause on a broken weapon being destroyed).

For reference:

Fragile quality wrote:
A fragile weapon gains the broken condition if the wielder rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with the weapon. If a fragile weapon is already broken, the roll of a natural 1 destroys it instead.
Firearms misfires wrote:
If the natural result of your attack roll falls within a firearm’s misfire value, that shot misses, even if you would have otherwise hit the target. When a firearm misfires, it gains the broken condition....If an early firearm with the broken condition misfires again, it explodes.

This is assuming that you roll a 1 and your firearm misfires on a 1.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

So obsidian bullets, not obsidian firearms.

You actually can't even make obsidian bullets. The obsidian entry states that spear heads and arrowheads can be made of obsidian alongside one-handed slashing and piercing weapons, but nothing else. A bullet is not a one-handed slashing or piercing weapon.

Obsidian also is in the same book that firearms were introduced in, so if you were able to make bullets or guns out of obsidian (given that the entry specifies everything else it can makes), I think it would tell you.

Grand Lodge

What about Stone Firearms?


Well, apparently things like bone, obsidian, or viridium bows are just fine if we're thinking this way. :|

I'm going to go with no. Especially when you consider that bullets are what's made of special materials, not firearms, in the firearm rules.

Grand Lodge

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Adamantine Revolver, for pure cool factor.


Arlok Ingdermun wrote:


Yeah, the reason being it allows me to buy a masterwork pepperbox for 1800 instead of 3300, and i have it at level 2. Keep in mind that since this is PFS, i cant really convince a GM/GM cant say no if its actually a possibility. According to Hero Lab, it is possible and legal. And there should be the fragile 'component' on it, but its masterwork, and according to the rules, that removes the flaws(which would be it gains broken on 1).
So i guess the logic behind it is its masterfully made in such a way to prevent it from breaking.(though firearms would break on a 1-~~ anyway

Hero Lab is wrong on this one, I think you missed my post where I pointed out RAW it's not legal because Firearms do P and B damage (you can't make one that does only P damage), and obsidian may only be used for P or S. Stone won't work for the same reason (Stone covers B damage, but not P).

That's going strictly as RAW, for PFS.

Grand Lodge

A P/B weapon, is still a P weapon.

You can have an Obsidian Morningstar.

Unless, you are trying to say that a Morningstar, is not a piercing weapon.


I'm pertty sure you can make a weapon out of any material as long as one connects to the correct type..

or at least I've never heard that it doesn't, which just leaves the "Xtype weapons can be made from this material" thing and it does have the right type.

Realism why it sounds stupid as hell/not right. But this is pathfinder where it really doesn't follow


I would say this is a no-go not only for the very obvious real-world applications of 1) being able to actually craft the item out of obsidian without it breaking and 2) the weapon exploding in your face the first time you fired it...

However, if we are to examine this as a rules argument, then think of it this way. According to the rules a Firearm is a specific type of weapon which is in its own category and cannot be crafted by anyone without the Gunsmithing feat. According to the rules a Firearm is not considered a light or one-handed weapon as indicated by the Obsidian description as follows:

d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Weapons Obsidian can be used to craft light and one-handed weapons that do piercing or slashing damage, as well as spear tips and arrowheads. Obsidian weapons have half the hardness of their base weapon and have the fragile quality.

A Firearm is considered either a one-handed firearm or a two-handed firearm, not light or one-handed weapons. That distinction is very evident in Ultimate Combat. Therefore, that alone would disqualify the firearms from being crafted from obsidian... if we are playing the rules laywering game.

In reference to the ammunition issue (as much as I dislike the idea of obsidian bullets....) I would have to agree with BBT. Based off the rules, bullets could be crafted from obsidian given that they deal both piercing and bludgeoning damage.

Silver Crusade

This assumes you can even find obsidian. It's not like you can cut corners by short-changing materials when you're forgetting wither or not said material is even obtainable at the current location.

Depends on how much you want to step on your GM's toes in regards to the amount of cheese introduced.


Guns dont do damage their ammunition does. Guns are also ranged weapons not one handed weapons.
Lastly its probably ludicrous enough a pfs gm can just say no.

However they cannot limit access to obsidian itself.

Sovereign Court

Alright, so if bullets do the damage for firearms, how come certain firearms do lower damage than others? They all use the same bullets.
Also, saying a one handed fire arm is not a one handed weapon is plain nitpicky.

If I'm wrong, just lemme know.
Most of you didn't reference anything from the rule books.


Arlok Ingdermun wrote:

Alright, so if bullets do the damage for firearms, how come certain firearms do lower damage than others? They all use the same bullets.

Also, saying a one handed fire arm is not a one handed weapon is plain nitpicky.

If I'm wrong, just lemme know.
Most of you didn't reference anything from the rule books.

The damage difference is due to the barrel. Just like real firearms. Same caliber in a pistol and a rifle, the rifle is generally higher specs.

One handed fire arm not being a one handed weapon isn't really nitpicky since the game itself classifies the difference. (light one two handed weapons, ranged weapons, fire arms. all different categories in the game. There is some bleed over but they're specifically marked such as Daggers and throwing axes)

Sovereign Court

Yeah, so if it's due to the barrel, it's due to the gun. So the gun is the deciding factor, therefore it should be technically what causes the damage, as a bullet can do no damage by itself. Also can you reference where it says guns are considered one handed firearms and not one handed weapons?( I will never understand how those don't cross over)

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