Goblinworks Blog Alpha 12.1 Release Notes


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Goblin Squad Member

It's a perfectly valid position, Takasi, but I think you'll, indeed, find yourself in the minority.

It's really only a label though. Maybe we can crowdeforge toward selectable labels on our sheets. Is there a good reason that two people with identical characters couldn't be either priest or cleric, commoner or freeholder, as they prefer?

Edit: it would add exactly the sort of freedom and flexibility that makes a sandbox so appealing.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
It's really only a label though. Maybe we can crowdeforge toward selectable labels on our sheets. Is there a good reason that two people with identical characters couldn't be either priest or cleric, commoner or freeholder, as they prefer?

What's on the sheet isn't as important for the overall health of the game as what will be on the achievement and training lists.

Few will ask 'What is a wizard?' Freeholder is a bit strange to see here and has no authenticity outside of this MMO, does it?

I do like the flavor of the armor feats (guide, pioneer, rambler).

It's just sad to see another piece of the tabletop game die. Yes I'll be dramatic for a moment.

RIP Commoner. :(

Goblin Squad Member

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Takasi wrote:
Why not change Cleric to Priest?

Clerical error, obviously.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Takasi wrote:
Why not change Cleric to Priest?
Clerical error, obviously.

Speaking of errors, I predict more than a few people will misname the new class 'Freeloader'.

Goblin Squad Member

Schedim wrote:

*eye roll*

You still don't get it, you can fight without max armour. You just have to sacrifice something to get something.

But I guess it hurts in the min/maxer gene...

I am not a min-maxer, and I don't appreciate the eye rolls, "don't get it" snark, and min/max accusations.

Doc wrote:
Not adding encumbrance to a degree that would prevent people from being able to forage and carry tons of stuff while also wearing heavy armor - would be analogous to somebody in EVE mining asteroids with a battleship.

I'm not talking about mining here. I am talking about the basic spoils of war. I've never played EVE, or any other MMO. Perhaps I have an unreasonable expectation. Can your battleship capture cargo when it defeats an enemy? Can it get that cargo back home without dedicating a carrier for pure shipping?

Nihimon wrote:
They could have left out the reduction in overall Inventory and just used Encumbrance to accomplish their Design Goals, but then it would have been even more punishing for you to carry a backup set of Heavy Armor.

They could reduce the encumbrance for distributed gear. I've worn armor, and I've carried it. Wearing it is a lot easier. Also, if wearing it takes up less encumbrance, a player who strips to run away may find himself slowed by the added encumbrance of the armor he just removed.

Bluddwolf wrote:
Fighters in heavy armor, are fighters. They are not going to be fighters in heavy armor and pack mules.

Agreed. I am not trying to load the fighters down to carry stuff from town to town. I'm just saying that if I want to walk from Tavernhold to Forgeholm without stopping to do any gathering or mining, but perhaps fighting some mobs as I see the opportunity, I should be able to get at least to Alderwag before I start having to throw loot away to keep moving.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:


They could have left out the reduction in overall Inventory and just used Encumbrance to accomplish their Design Goals, but then it would have been even more punishing for you to carry a backup set of Heavy Armor.

Exactly, and now a Porter can transport more suits of armour than would be the case if you had put the whole penalty in encumbrance.

So there are only advantages with the system, of course there may be need for some fine tuning but the system as is solves my problems with the Armour system at least.

Goblin Squad Member

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Encumbrance is a somewhat arbitrary number that quantifies both the weight and bulkiness of each thing we carry, right?

So if our armor has encumbrance, that number is accounting for both the weight of the materials and the difficulty of keeping that armor from spilling all over as we lug it around. Then what is causing the percentage penalty? We've already paid the price for the weight and unwieldiness of the armor what else is there to incur further penalty?

It can have a straight up encumbrance number that reflects how hard it is to carry around, or do the percentage penalty IN LIEU of encumbrance as an even worse penalty to our ability to haul stuff around. Doing both is double-fining wearers of the two kinds of armor.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
TEO Cheatle wrote:
Well looks like Strongback is going to be for all classes...
Are you suggesting that all Roles will want Strongback, or that Strongback will no longer be specific to the Freeholder (formerly Commoner) Role? I don't see any evidence of the latter and as long as it will break my Wizard Dedication Bonus, I'm quite sure I won't be taking it.

I'll be buying bonuses: reflex bonus, even though I'm not a rogue, fortitude bonus, even though I'm not a fighter, willpower bonus, even though I'm not a cleric. I expect that rogues, fighters, and clerics will likewise buy encumbrance bonuses even though they aren't freeholders.

I'm going to avoid buying a lot of ranks in slotted bonus feats. If only because I can only slot a limited number of them. While I may use them in the long run, I'll have to consider whether it's worth the xp cost to buy something I might slot only 5% of the time.

Goblin Squad Member

Im from Sweden, perhaps I have no problem with multiple taxes ... :-)

Seriously I'm not seeing as multiple penalties as expanding the number of parameters to tweak.

You could have armour made of lighter material lowering the encumbrance, say mithril plate versus steel plate.

Or you could have armour that is of the same material but made in a way that easier on the movement, a bit like chainmail versus scale mail.

Just as they can tinker with different resistances and stuff on the Feats...

And as I said it penalise the user but not the crafter/porter as much.


Quote:
The game mechanic can't function if a majority of people don't want to play one of the key roles because they feel like they'd be something "less" than if they played a different one.
Quote:
It's a perfectly valid position, Takasi, but I think you'll, indeed, find yourself in the minority.

Where is this coming from? Was their some big debate about the naming of the Commoner class?

Goblin Squad Member

Is this what is patching now? Weren't we supposed to get 48 hours notice on encumbrance? I'm the wrong end of the map and probably unable to move!

Trying to log in, it says I have the wrong client, but the client is not patching :(

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
So if our armor has encumbrance, that number is accounting for both the weight of the materials and the difficulty of keeping that armor from spilling all over as we lug it around. Then what is causing the percentage penalty? We've already paid the price for the weight and unwieldiness of the armor what else is there to incur further penalty?

The percentage penalty may represent the physical debuff from actually wearing the armor. Since the D&D white boxed set, wearing heavier armors has imposed movement penalties in the TT games, in addition to any penalty for just pure loads. I don't know why any would think that the movement restrictions would suddenly go away, even if it's just there for game balance.


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Quote:
I'm not talking about mining here. I am talking about the basic spoils of war. I've never played EVE, or any other MMO. Perhaps I have an unreasonable expectation. Can your battleship capture cargo when it defeats an enemy? Can it get that cargo back home without dedicating a carrier for pure shipping?

Every ship for the most part can carry cargo, and in PFO every character will be able to carry stuff.

The key thing is, a Battleship that uses up it's cargo space to carry space rocks/junk has less room for missles and ammo, etc. A freighter or miner is better equipped (even more so with its bonuses) to haul stuff, and more stuff at that.

It forces you to make decisions on what you want to accomplish and choose your ship accordingly.

I think PFO is being designed in a similar manner -

Forcing the player to make meaningful choices on what they want to accomplish and how to do it - as opposed to letting everyone do everything at all times.

The end result, IMHO, is more variety in gameplay experiences, and more player interaction or inter-dependence - which I believe are good things.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:
Weren't we supposed to get 48 hours notice on encumbrance?

The "48 hour countdown" will be for Early Enrollment; it was not for Encumbrance.

Goblin Squad Member

It's a shame tester prime didn't mention anything yesterday, in fact he said he expected the patch on Friday. I wouldn't have gone to the other end of the map.

Paizo Employee Goblinworks Game Designer

We are in the process of switching everything over to the new build. Looks like it will take another half hour before folks can get back in.

Goblin Squad Member

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
They could have left out the reduction in overall Inventory and just used Encumbrance to accomplish their Design Goals, but then it would have been even more punishing for you to carry a backup set of Heavy Armor.
They could reduce the encumbrance for distributed gear. I've worn armor, and I've carried it. Wearing it is a lot easier. Also, if wearing it takes up less encumbrance, a player who strips to run away may find himself slowed by the added encumbrance of the armor he just removed.

I remember a discussion fairly recently about distributed gear. What I took away from it is that it's easier to wear gear that's distributed on your torso, but once it gets distributed out to every limb, it's actually quite a bit more difficult than carrying it in a backpack.

Also, I would remind you of the original movement penalties associated with Heavy Armor. In the early Alpha builds, a Heavy Armor wearing Character's Hustle Speed (the default speed) was slower than a Cloth Armor wearing Character's Walk Speed.

Goblin Squad Member

Bob Settles wrote:
We are in the process of switching everything over to the new build. Looks like it will take another half hour before folks can get back in.

I just got in, didn't notice any difference.

Goblin Squad Member

Bob Settles wrote:
We are in the process of switching everything over to the new build. Looks like it will take another half hour before folks can get back in.

So if you're reading this and can get in, get to any available bank. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Spoke too soon, just got the boot.

Goblin Squad Member

Was fleeing towards a bank when I got booted :(


Patcher is updating :)

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Nihimon wrote:
Quote:
Renamed "Commoner" to "Freeholder".
This is great. "Commoner" was a little too... "basic".

Yeah, the Paizo team was not a fan of it because, in tabletop, Commoners aren't really at all awesome. So we workshopped a term that everyone felt was sufficiently heroic and covered the wide variety of stuff the role does in PFO.

Quote:
Spell Penalty?? Is this new? I see a reference to "spell penalty" in the "Alpha 9.1 Update" blog, but it's only mentioned as a piece of future tech. Can we get a little more information on how this works, and what the values are for the various armor types?

It's been in the plan for the beginning, and is pretty high priority to get in, so hopefully real soon now.

It's basically an attack penalty to all Arcane attacks, and the total/20 is a penalty to Effect Power on Beneficial Arcane actions. So it should affect all Spellbook spells and all cantrips. If you have -100, you'll be -100 attack bonus to all those that are attacks, and -5 EPow to all pure buffs. This can take the totals negative.

Cloth is -0, Light is -20, Medium is -50*, and Heavy is -100.

* I just realized this will result in some weird rounding with the EPow, so that might get tweaked again before Spell Penalty is working.

Goblin Squad Member

Used day to move just outside a bank, in TK, again EU time rules!

Goblin Squad Member

<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:


Bluddwolf wrote:
Fighters in heavy armor, are fighters. They are not going to be fighters in heavy armor and pack mules.
Agreed. I am not trying to load the fighters down to carry stuff from town to town. I'm just saying that if I want to walk from Tavernhold to Forgeholm without stopping to do any gathering or mining, but perhaps fighting some mobs as I see the opportunity, I should be able to get at least to Alderwag before I start having to throw loot away to keep moving.

Agreed, but that is an issue with auto looting and not one with the limitations that come with wearing heavy armor.

Goblin Squad Member

As I say, raiding and travelling with some side line of gathering, use a Medium Armour ...

Goblin Squad Member

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Takasi wrote:
Freeholder is a bit strange to see here and has no authenticity outside of this MMO, does it?

Given the historical use of Freeholder, and a tie with the Golarion canon for the River Freedoms, "you have what you hold," etc. I believe Freeholder is actually a very appropriate term. They are free men, land holders, that are not vassals to any king. This is as opposed to Commoner, which historical meant "everyone that's not nobility (and later, "or clergy"). From what I can tell, PFO is going for a very different feel for this role vs. the Commoner class from PFRPG.

Goblin Squad Member

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Stephen Cheney wrote:
Quote:
Spell Penalty?? Is this new? I see a reference to "spell penalty" in the "Alpha 9.1 Update" blog, but it's only mentioned as a piece of future tech. Can we get a little more information on how this works, and what the values are for the various armor types?

It's been in the plan for the beginning, and is pretty high priority to get in, so hopefully real soon now.

It's basically an attack penalty to all Arcane attacks, and the total/20 is a penalty to Effect Power on Beneficial Arcane actions. So it should affect all Spellbook spells and all cantrips. If you have -100, you'll be -100 attack bonus to all those that are attacks, and -5 EPow to all pure buffs. This can take the totals negative.

Cloth is -0, Light is -20, Medium is -50*, and Heavy is -100.

* I just realized this will result in some weird rounding with the EPow, so that might get tweaked again before Spell Penalty is working.

\

LOL, I guess this will cut down on the Heavy Armor wearing Wizard, Cleric, Fighters; casting Downward Burst + Windrider and switching to Cleric's Focus with heals and Speed Boost; all while carrying 6 tons of extra gear, resources and recipes.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks, Stephen. I've been hoping there would be some kind of Arcane Spell Failure chance built into Heavy Armor.

Bluddwolf wrote:
LOL, I guess this will cut down on the Heavy Armor wearing Wizard, Cleric, Fighters; casting Downward Burst + Windrider and switching to Cleric's Focus with heals and Speed Boost; all while carrying 6 tons of extra gear, resources and recipes.

Downburst is dead. Now it's all about Killing Joke. :)

#DownburstNation
#JokesOnYou

Goblin Squad Member

For those not watching the Alpha forums, having a recipe in your inventory or bank temporarily breaks the crafting tab so it won't load. Once it's gone, until you log out, you'll see a vast number of phantom copies of the last recipe you unloaded.

Paizo Employee CEO

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Takasi wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

This is great. "Commoner" was a little too... "basic".

I don't like this change. Why not change Cleric to Priest?

I like the idea of playing NPC classes. I could see how it might be confusing to an MMO player who thinks in terms of Common and Uncommon and Rare and whatnot but the idea of Commoners, Experts and Aristocrats gives the game more tabletop authenticity. I don't like it when that aspect is removed.

Who named this?

It was requested by my team at Paizo. I can't remember the exact reasons, but Erik, James, and Jason all thought that it was not good to use the word Commoner and asked Goblinworks to change it. We then brainstormed names and chose that one.

-Lisa

Goblin Squad Member

Lisa Stevens wrote:
[Changing "Commoner" to "Freeholder"] was requested by my team at Paizo.

Thanks for saying that Lisa. Stephen said something similar that almost prompted me to point out that working with "the Paizo team" on it made it just as authentic as anything that's already been published for PFRPG, but that point carries a lot more weight now that you've made it so explicit.


Patched and successfully logged in just to make sure, you know, I could.

If you got caught on the wrong end of the map and need a hand relocating goods, PM me and I will see what I can do to help out tonight. My main is in Phaeros and I have alts in Marchmont and Rathglen.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Quote:
Spell Penalty?? Is this new? I see a reference to "spell penalty" in the "Alpha 9.1 Update" blog, but it's only mentioned as a piece of future tech. Can we get a little more information on how this works, and what the values are for the various armor types?

It's been in the plan for the beginning, and is pretty high priority to get in, so hopefully real soon now.

It's basically an attack penalty to all Arcane attacks, and the total/20 is a penalty to Effect Power on Beneficial Arcane actions. So it should affect all Spellbook spells and all cantrips. If you have -100, you'll be -100 attack bonus to all those that are attacks, and -5 EPow to all pure buffs. This can take the totals negative.

Cloth is -0, Light is -20, Medium is -50*, and Heavy is -100.

* I just realized this will result in some weird rounding with the EPow, so that might get tweaked again before Spell Penalty is working.

Wondering how "this can take the totals negative" on buffs such as healing will interact. Could healing cause damage? Does spell penalty affect Tokens/consumables?

Goblin Squad Member

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Lisa Stevens wrote:

It was requested by my team at Paizo. I can't remember the exact reasons, but Erik, James, and Jason all thought that it was not good to use the word Commoner and asked Goblinworks to change it. We then brainstormed names and chose that one.

-Lisa

Thanks Lisa, I'm glad it has street cred. :)

Someday in a few years it'd be fun to see Freeholder as a Pathfinder tabletop class. Maybe even a new Pathfinder Online sourcebook or campaign.

Goblinworks Game Designer

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
Wondering how "this can take the totals negative" on buffs such as healing will interact. Could healing cause damage? Does spell penalty affect Tokens/consumables?

Say you're using Speed, which is a level one Spellbook spell. When you wear cloth armor +0 and match its one keyword, your Effect Power (EPow) is 1 (from matching the one keyword on the spell) and your Effect Protection (EPro) is 1 (from matching the one keyword on your armor). So there's no net effect from them since they cancel out, and the Hasted buff lasts its full two round duration.

But if you were in heavy armor instead, you'd be matching 0 keywords (assuming a Wizard armor feat), for a net 0 EPro. But you'd subtract 5 from your EPow, for a net of -4. Since your EPow is four less than your EPro, the effect is at -40% so only lasts 7.2 seconds.

The modification to the effect is still floored at -100%, but the heavy armor penalty is pretty similar to adding five keywords' worth of EPro to yourself in how far it downgrades the effect.

Similarly, the penalty to attack lets it go negative, but that just makes it easier to have a big margin of failure that downgrades the damage and effects of your attack.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:


Where is this coming from? Was their some big debate about the naming of the Commoner class? (link)

Commoner Role & it's Disparaging Connotations (from July 2014)

I just happened to be reading this a few weeks ago. But based on Lisa's post, player opinions probably didn't have a decisive effect on this decision.


On the whole "Heavy Armor people can't carry anything" bit, its really not that bad. Swapping between heavy and medium armor on my character makes a noticeable difference, but it is the difference of being slightly below half encumbered and slightly above half encumbered. Not terrible at all.


REACTIVES ARE WORKING!!!!! YAAAAY!

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
REACTIVES ARE WORKING!!!!! YAAAAY!

Time for me to reequip Stunning Critical. Want to see how effective that is.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Has anyone verified that tower PVP windows are opening on schedule?

(If so, has anyone taken a previously locked-in tower yet?)


I passed through a tower hex owned by Phaeros that was Open PvP with a 7 hour timer on it.

So.... I guess they are working now?

Goblin Squad Member

Something I'm noticing in v12.1: odd harvest numbers.

In previous versions, I always harvested some multiple of 2. Mostly 2, but 4, 6, 8, even 10. This seemed to climb with my skill.

In 12.1 I'm sometimes harvesting just 1 item. Sometimes I harvest 0, and the harvesting animation stops and I can't try to harvest that node again. Eventually it disappears. Are these odd numbers some undocumented change, or is something wrong?

Goblin Squad Member

The Company Window keeps popping up unexpectedly. It seems like it might be related to folks Applying or being Approved.

Goblin Squad Member

Also, having 4 Company Members capturing a Tower, our Capture Points are only going up by two at a time. At one point, two of the members no longer showed themselves being members. One re-applied and suddenly saw himself in Members again, although now his name is also in Applicants.


Stephen Cheney wrote:

It's been in the plan for the beginning, and is pretty high priority to get in, so hopefully real soon now.

It's basically an attack penalty to all Arcane attacks, and the total/20 is a penalty to Effect Power on Beneficial Arcane actions. So it should affect all Spellbook spells and all cantrips. If you have -100, you'll be -100 attack bonus to all those that are attacks, and -5 EPow to all pure buffs. This can take the totals negative.

Cloth is -0, Light is -20, Medium is -50*, and Heavy is -100.

* I just realized this will result in some weird rounding with the EPow, so that might get tweaked again before Spell Penalty is working.

Stephen Cheney wrote:
<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
Wondering how "this can take the totals negative" on buffs such as healing will interact. Could healing cause damage? Does spell penalty affect Tokens/consumables?

Say you're using Speed, which is a level one Spellbook spell. When you wear cloth armor +0 and match its one keyword, your Effect Power (EPow) is 1 (from matching the one keyword on the spell) and your Effect Protection (EPro) is 1 (from matching the one keyword on your armor). So there's no net effect from them since they cancel out, and the Hasted buff lasts its full two round duration.

But if you were in heavy armor instead, you'd be matching 0 keywords (assuming a Wizard armor feat), for a net 0 EPro. But you'd subtract 5 from your EPow, for a net of -4. Since your EPow is four less than your EPro, the effect is at -40% so only lasts 7.2 seconds.

The modification to the effect is still floored at -100%, but the heavy armor penalty is pretty similar to adding five keywords' worth of EPro to yourself in how far it downgrades the effect.

Similarly, the penalty to attack lets it go negative, but that just makes it easier to have a big margin of failure that downgrades the damage and effects of your attack.

Ok, so reading this, someone in Heavy Armor won't have a "spell failure chance" like in PFTT. Rather, they will suffer massive penalties to their attacks.

You used the example of casting a buff. If we look at it in terms of casting an offensive spell against someone in +2 armor with keywords matched, the math becomes:

EPro for target = 3
EPow for attacker = -4

Total effectiveness = 1+((-4)-3) * 10% = 30% effectiveness

IF we are talking about Cantrips (i.e. Wraith's Cry), then it goes like this...

Base Attack Bonus + Arcane Attack Bonus + T1 d200 Roll - 100 versus 50 Fortitude.

To make a long story short, with a T1 version of the attack AND your Arcane Attack Bonus maxed for the tier AND you are an Elf, it will be almost impossible to beat the 50 Fortitude, and you will have a negative final attack roll most of the time (you'd need about a 55 or higher on the roll to at least break even, which only happens about 40% of the time).

Just to keep math simple, lets assume you come up with a total attack roll of 0 (zero). Plug that into the hit-success-factor equation and we see that your Wraith's Cry will do about 55% of its full damage most of the time. Very far from enough to one shot mobs and certainly not enough to make it worth anybody's while to try it out. Just use Whirlwind instead.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Also, having 4 Company Members capturing a Tower, our Capture Points are only going up by two at a time. At one point, two of the members no longer showed themselves being members. One re-applied and suddenly saw himself in Members again, although now his name is also in Applicants.

Doing some more testing on this, several attempts to kick and reinvite in different ways had no impact. Logging out and back in had no impact. Leaving the hex and returning had no impact.

If it helps, there were also folks from two other Companies (both pledged to Phaeros) present when the weirdness started happening. Also, both Characters that were not contributing points had just recently left different Companies (both pledged to Phaeros).

Finally, I was able to see both Characters in the Members list for the Company, but they didn't see themselves there until they applied again. The first to apply is the only one whose name shows in the Applicants list. Now everyone sees both of them as Members, and the one as an Applicant, even though the 2nd also applied. Sorry, it's a little difficult to explain this coherently and succinctly.

Our working assumption is that they won't contribute for Capture Points if they were a member of another Company at the most recent server restart.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Also, having 4 Company Members capturing a Tower, our Capture Points are only going up by two at a time. At one point, two of the members no longer showed themselves being members. One re-applied and suddenly saw himself in Members again, although now his name is also in Applicants.

Doing some more testing on this, several attempts to kick and reinvite in different ways had no impact. Logging out and back in had no impact. Leaving the hex and returning had no impact.

If it helps, there were also folks from two other Companies (both pledged to Phaeros) present when the weirdness started happening. Also, both Characters that were not contributing points had just recently left different Companies (both pledged to Phaeros).

Finally, I was able to see both Characters in the Members list for the Company, but they didn't see themselves there until they applied again. The first to apply is the only one whose name shows in the Applicants list. Now everyone sees both of them as Members, and the one as an Applicant, even though the 2nd also applied. Sorry, it's a little difficult to explain this coherently and succinctly.

Our working assumption is that they won't contribute for Capture Points if they were a member of another Company at the most recent server restart.

So is the current (and presumably EE situation) that you can only ever train (and get advantage from) higher level skills at the one settlement you are a direct member of a company affiliated with ?

Using Phaeros as an example if you trained as a high level wizard from Phaeros you cannot then train non-Phaeros high level craft skills at Hammerfell without leaving Phaeros and losing access to your high level wizard skills ?

CEO, Goblinworks

I am 90% sure that there are delays between taking company actions and those actions being reflected universally in the game. It might take a minute or two for a change in membership to percolate to all the systems involved.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I am 90% sure that there are delays between taking company actions and those actions being reflected universally in the game. It might take a minute or two for a change in membership to percolate to all the systems involved.

It was quite a bit longer than a couple of minutes.

We were around 300 points toward Capture when we noticed it was only going up to two. We finished Capturing, all the while only going up by two.

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